10 years in prison for forgetting to renew a railcard?

[AdamWW]

In this thread a letter apparently from GWR was shown in which it was claimed:
"Making a false representation by presenting tickets with a railcard discount when you do not hold a valid railcard is a criminal offence of Fraud by False Representation" and "you could receive a sentence of up to 10 years in prison".

Now I'm sure that nobody is going to go to prison for 10 years for failing to renew a railcard and GWR must know that. So how can it be permitted for them to make such threats? (I'm not convinced that it's criminal fraud either).

And if they really want to deter people from misusing railcards rather than just extract money from them, why don't they mention that failing to renew a railcard (and using it) is a criminal offence in information on railcards? I know they refer to the NRCoT, and that says that a ticket without a valid railcard is invalid, and from that you can see that it's a criminal offence, but it's not exactly obvious.

 

[Haywain]

In this thread a letter apparently from GWR was shown in which it was claimed:
"Making a false representation by presenting tickets with a railcard discount when you do not hold a valid railcard is a criminal offence of Fraud by False Representation" and "you could receive a sentence of up to 10 years in prison".

Now I'm sure that nobody is going to go to prison for 10 years for failing to renew a railcard and GWR must know that. So how can it be permitted for them to make such threats? (I'm not convinced that it's criminal fraud either).

And if they really want to deter people from misusing railcards rather than just extract money from them, why don't they mention that failing to renew a railcard (and using it) is a criminal offence in information on railcards? I know they refer to the NRCoT, and that says that a ticket without a valid railcard is invalid, and from that you can see that it's a criminal offence, but it's not exactly obvious.

There is a convention that when you tell people that they could be prosecuted for certain offences you should also tell them the maximum penalty that could, theoretically, be imposed. It used to be seen on trains where the penalty for smoking or misuse of the communication cord was the subject of notices

 

[AdamWW]

There is a convention that when you tell people that they could be prosecuted for certain offences you should also tell them the maximum penalty that could, theoretically, be imposed. It used to be seen on trains where the penalty for smoking or misuse of the communication cord was the subject of notices

Perhaps but I don't think it has to be phrased like they did:

"You could recieve a sentence of"

Not "This carries a maximum sentence of"

The two are very different.

This isn't a general warning notice - it's referring to a specific offence and unlike a warning notice is pretty clearly aimed at scaring people into paying up.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What railcard/fraud offence could - in theory - potentially result in a ten year prison sentence?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Why aren’t ticket purchasers forced to input their Railcard number so that the validity can be checked? That’s what National Express coaches do with coach cards

 

[AlterEgo]

What railcard/fraud offence could - in theory - potentially result in a ten year prison sentence?

Duplicating the railcard website and selling about £10 million worth of fake railcards.

 

[AdamWW]

Duplicating the railcard website and selling about £10 million worth of fake railcards.

Quite.

 

[ianBR]

Meanwhile the trainline is allowed to get away with not even emailing people to tell them their railcard is up for renewal (as happened to me this week - there is no notification in the app or any email received) It was only by chance I thought to check the expiry date as I'd foolishly assumed I'd be notified given I'd bought the railcard through the app.

 

[swt_passenger]

Meanwhile the trainline is allowed to get away with not even emailing people to tell them their railcard is up for renewal (as happened to me this week - there is no notification in the app or any email received) It was only by chance I thought to check the expiry date as I'd foolishly assumed I'd be notified given I'd bought the railcard through the app.

Then there’s people in this forum who seem to think unsolicited reminders would be a breach of data protection rules.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Why aren’t ticket purchasers forced to input their Railcard number so that the validity can be checked? That’s what National Express coaches do with coach cards

There's no central database. And if there was they couldn't hope to keep it up to date. Plus some people will legitimately buy tickets for other people. Then there's the times you haven't got a valid Railcard at the point of purchase, but will have at the time of travel

 

[Llanigraham]

Why aren’t ticket purchasers forced to input their Railcard number so that the validity can be checked? That’s what National Express coaches do with coach cards

Because there is no link between rail ticket retailers, independent or TOCs, and the bodies that issue Railcards.

 

[Moonpie]

Then there’s people in this forum who seem to think unsolicited reminders would be a breach of data protection rules.

If it wasn't all railcard retailers would send email reminders regardless of what you have said in relation to marketing emails. But it is a marketing email and so not send when someone declines to be included in marketing activities.

 

[tomuk]

There's no central database. And if there was they couldn't hope to keep it up to date. Plus some people will legitimately buy tickets for other people. Then there's the times you haven't got a valid Railcard at the point of purchase, but will have at the time of travel

But there should be a central database and in this day an age it would be exceedingly easy to keep it up to date. The current system and process like a lot of them connected with ticketing is a 19th century approach pickled in aspic at the point of privatisation.

 

[Silenos]

If it wasn't all railcard retailers would send email reminders regardless of what you have said in relation to marketing emails. But it is a marketing email and so not send when someone declines to be included in marketing activities.

Are you sure of that? You can, for example, receive reminders that a streaming or broadband subscription is coming to an end even if you have explicitly declined more general marketing emails.

 

[OscarH]

Because there is no link between rail ticket retailers, independent or TOCs, and the bodies that issue Railcards.

I believe ones at stations are a problem, which is currently being worked on (if not already sorted), but other than that there is such a database that all online retailers send to, and an API to validate numbers

The main reason it isn't used is because it's a horrendous user experience and makes buying tickets a massive hassle. It also needs an override button for people that don't have a railcard and will buy one closer to travel.

The topic of entering numbers has been discussed many many times here and I won't rehash it anymore here

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

In the late 90s, I recall the conductor of a train from Temple Meads advising over the PA that anyone arriving at Paddington without a ticket would be charged for a full single from Temple Meads. At that age, if someone had said to me that the vans would be ready to take those without valid tickets straight to Guantanamo Bay I would have believed them.

As with so many other things, the Great Western does things differently!!!

 

[Stephen42]

Are you sure of that? You can, for example, receive reminders that a streaming or broadband subscription is coming to an end even if you have explicitly declined more general marketing emails.

It will depend on the specifics, several organisations send different reminder emails varying on marketing consent status. Some industries a regulator mandates end of contract communications e.g. broadband making it legitimate interest. In other industries where the amount billed is changing then the email is a service notification provided no or minimal references to selling new services/contracts. Multiple reminder emails would generally be seen as marketing.

Railcards as a one off purchase without an ongoing relationship is more likely seen as marketing. Consent can be gathered for the specific reminder separate from general marketing and would be a far easier way to demonstrate compliance.

 

[GoneSouth]

Because there is no link between rail ticket retailers, independent or TOCs, and the bodies that issue Railcards.

Which is bonkers, but not unexpected with the shambolic way the rail system was carved up all those years ago

 

[Wallsendmag]

There's no central database. And if there was they couldn't hope to keep it up to date. Plus some people will legitimately buy tickets for other people. Then there's the times you haven't got a valid Railcard at the point of purchase, but will have at the time of travel

Yes there is and it has APIs available for retailers to check validity but it is relatively new.

 

[Llanigraham]

I believe ones at stations are a problem, which is currently being worked on (if not already sorted), but other than that there is such a database that all online retailers send to, and an API to validate numbers

The main reason it isn't used is because it's a horrendous user experience and makes buying tickets a massive hassle. It also needs an override button for people that don't have a railcard and will buy one closer to travel.

The topic of entering numbers has been discussed many many times here and I won't rehash it anymore here

There may be a database of SOME railcards, but I very much doubt that all those issued, especially regional ones like the Cambrian Card, are recorded, and I don't think you will find my Disabled Person's Card is either.

But there should be a central database and in this day an age it would be exceedingly easy to keep it up to date. The current system and process like a lot of them connected with ticketing is a 19th century approach pickled in aspic at the point of privatisation.

See above!

Yes there is and it has APIs available for retailers to check validity but it is relatively new.

And that contains the details of every Railcard issued to every person across the whole of the UK?
I'm sorry but I don't believe that.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Only GB, but so I'm told.

 

[Hadders]

I bet there's some 'gaps' in the railcard database.

When I've purchased from a station I've often only given very minimum details - for example I don't normally give an email address or date of birth. On one occasion I'm not sure I even gave an address. Who enters the info into the central database - the staff at the station or are the application forms sent off for it to be done somewhere central? If they get sent off then I'm sure that there'll be some that go missing in transit etc.

If it's anything like the season ticket database - until very recently that had my address down as Stevenage Station and had done for years!

 

[Krokodil]

Are you sure of that? You can, for example, receive reminders that a streaming or broadband subscription is coming to an end even if you have explicitly declined more general marketing emails.

It will depend on the specifics, several organisations send different reminder emails varying on marketing consent status. Some industries a regulator mandates end of contract communications e.g. broadband making it legitimate interest. In other industries where the amount billed is changing then the email is a service notification provided no or minimal references to selling new services/contracts. Multiple reminder emails would generally be seen as marketing.

Railcards as a one off purchase without an ongoing relationship is more likely seen as marketing. Consent can be gathered for the specific reminder separate from general marketing and would be a far easier way to demonstrate compliance.

"Your railcard expires soon" is almost certainly fine. No reason that they couldn't send that out.

"Click the link to renew" is where the issue is.

 

[pzned]

Meanwhile the trainline is allowed to get away with not even emailing people to tell them their railcard is up for renewal (as happened to me this week - there is no notification in the app or any email received) It was only by chance I thought to check the expiry date as I'd foolishly assumed I'd be notified given I'd bought the railcard through the app.

Why should they email people to remind them? They are in the business of selling tickets, not railcards

But there should be a central database and in this day an age it would be exceedingly easy to keep it up to date. The current system and process like a lot of them connected with ticketing is a 19th century approach pickled in aspic at the point of privatisation.

You may think it would be simple to keep up to date but it would involve extra cost and staff to manage which would in turn probably drive up the cost of railcards

 

[Vespa]

You can set up a reminder on your mobile phone to inform you of renewal dates, an external agancy is not going to do it for you when it's your responsibility to check your renewal dates.

 

[tomuk]

Why should they email people to remind them? They are in the business of selling tickets, not railcards


You may think it would be simple to keep up to date but it would involve extra cost and staff to manage which would in turn probably drive up the cost of railcards

All railcards should be issued from the same central system, the ATOC one you buy online from, ticket office staff should have a back office version of the same site. There would be none of this nonsense over expired or forgotten cards with a proper central system. The near £6000 pound 'fine' GWR are trying to put on the passenger which inspired this thread is ridiculous.

Having said that the number of passengers using railcards outside of the true concessionary ones is tiny and even those concessionary are duplicative of already issued ids\passes. Maybe best just to scrap the lot.

 

[fandroid]

All the Railcards sold online could have automated reminders. Some don't even exist as plastic cards but are solely on an app. Don't let's get bogged down in pointless debate about exceptions. Trainline has been reported to have an autofill box for Railcards when buying tickets. If that's so they should delete that function as it's caused trouble for ticket purchasers.

I get reminders all the time for things like insurance and vehicle tax and NS&I savings certificates. I really don't understand what the horror is concerning these.

By all means have an opt in box for reminders when buying a Railcard, but again don't let's pretend that such systems cost the Railcard sellers anything to operate, once they've set them up.

Back to the original letter from GWR.

It looked cobbled together fairly incoherently to me. To attach a threat of a Fraud Act penalty to the one incident of an expired Railcard frankly looked bonkers. The accusation that might have fitted that was connected with the associated investigation into five years worth of tickets bought with various Railcard discounts. It's almost as if two people have combined to include both in one letter and bits of it have accidentally got misplaced.

 

[Hadders]

All railcards should be issued from the same central system, the ATOC one you buy online from, ticket office staff should have a back office version of the same site. There would be none of this nonsense over expired or forgotten cards with a proper central system. The near £6000 pound 'fine' GWR are trying to put on the passenger which inspired this thread is ridiculous.

Having said that the number of passengers using railcards outside of the true concessionary ones is tiny and even those concessionary are duplicative of already issued ids\passes. Maybe best just to scrap the lot.

How much is that going to slow down the ticket purchasing process.

Also, does that mean that I can't buy tickets on behalf of another person. Say I use my account to purchase ticket for my mum - she has a Senior Railcard, is this 'joined up' system going to allow that?

My view is that this is one of those areas of life where we need to take personal responsibility for getting it right.

 

[tomuk]

How much is that going to slow down the ticket purchasing process.

Also, does that mean that I can't buy tickets on behalf of another person. Say I use my account to purchase ticket for my mum - she has a Senior Railcard, is this 'joined up' system going to allow that?

How does centrally holding a proper record of railcards sold and their current validity slow down the ticketing process? I'm not necessarily suggesting that the requirements to hold and present a railcard should change vis a vis ticket purchase vs inspection.

But even if the requirement was changed and you had to present the card upfront or enter the card details into the app/website TVM that is no hardship. Is your mother not able to give you her railcard number for example if you have to purchase a ticket on her behalf?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

How does centrally holding a proper record of railcards sold and their current validity slow down the ticketing process?

If it's to be accessed while buying a ticket, that's going to mean the app you're using querying the database. Additional access will inevitably add time: realistically, the query may not take very long - but getting the message to and from your phone might do.

If the centralised database isn't going to be accessed during purchase, then what's the point of it?