Elizabeth line reliability issues

[Samzino]

Signal failure at Canary Wharf

Broken down train holding up service at Paddington

 

[Horizon22]

Bad morning today due to a major signal failure around Old Oak Common (NR responsibility) preventing more than half of the introduction of trains for the morning, and still ongoing.

 

[Taunton]

Completely up the spout again this morning. Seems hardly anything ran on the western side from start of service to now, 1200. That has to be one of the worst breakdowns we have had. Eventually I got to a business meeting near Slough courtesy of GWR from Paddington main line, substantially late, just as last time. Didn't seem to pass one Elizabeth train in the whole journey. Heathrow Express appeared scrubbed as well.

That's it for using the Elizabeth to this client. In future I'll drive. By experience, this is far more reliable.

Incidentally, regarding "responsibility", the railway has a bizarre interpretation of this. It is up to the Elizabeth management to control all their inputs, just like any other business. The electricity supply, the train builders, their staff, and their providers of tracks and signals. That's up to them to manage, which is singularly not happening. Just like it's my responsibility to arrive for my meetings on time, so I will make sure in future I do. As stated.

 

[Edsmith]

Completely up the spout again this morning. Seems hardly anything ran on the western side from start of service to now, 1200. That has to be one of the worst breakdowns we have had. Eventually I got to a business meeting near Slough courtesy of GWR from Paddington main line, substantially late, just as last time. Didn't seem to pass one Elizabeth train in the whole journey. Heathrow Express appeared scrubbed as well.

That's it for using the Elizabeth to this client. In future I'll drive. By experience, this is far more reliable.

Incidentally, regarding "responsibility", the railway has a bizarre interpretation of this. It is up to the Elizabeth management to control all their inputs, just like any other business. The electricity supply, the train builders, their staff, and their providers of tracks and signals. That's up to them to manage, which is singularly not happening. Just like it's my responsibility to arrive for my meetings on time, so I will make sure in future I do. As stated.

A bit like blaming National Express or Megabus for roadworks?

 

[Horizon22]

That's it for using the Elizabeth to this client. In future I'll drive. By experience, this is far more reliable.

Incidentally, regarding "responsibility", the railway has a bizarre interpretation of this. It is up to the Elizabeth management to control all their inputs, just like any other business. The electricity supply, the train builders, their staff, and their providers of tracks and signals. That's up to them to manage, which is singularly not happening. Just like it's my responsibility to arrive for my meetings on time, so I will make sure in future I do. As stated.

You can challenge and challenge and challenge but ultimately if the infrastructure provider says “No”, what is the operator to do? You can get ticket acceptance and lay on replacement (where possible) but that takes time and still extends journey times and even then might not reach all areas (the further from London the worse).

If the majority of the trains cannot enter service, then such disruption is inevitable.

 

[Taunton]

Why can't they enter service? In the bad old days, short of a loco falling into the turntable pit and stranding those on the radiating lines, things were circumvented. If there was a signal failure there were straightforward procedures to go past the red which delayed things for a few minutes each train.

This "signal failure" seems to have happened overnight and the trains were all still in the depot as it came up to midday. I saw them all as we passed. Is that some bizarre form of "progress"?

Incidentally, regarding replacement, it was notable that the GW outer suburban train, serving local points beyond Slough, was still run express to there. No attempt was made to service the intermediate stations, which at 1100 had nobody on the platforms at all, so had presumably been closed. It's not as if there was keenness to keep punctuality - it departed 10 minutes late and arrived at Slough, its first stop, 22 minutes late.

It's getting on for 1400 now. Everything Elizabeth still seems to be cancelled out west.

 

[Horizon22]

Why can't they enter service? In the bad old days, short of a loco falling into the turntable pit and stranding those on the radiating lines, things were circumvented. If there was a signal failure there were straightforward procedures to go past the red which delayed things for a few minutes each train.

This "signal failure" seems to have happened overnight and the trains were all still in the depot as it came up to midday. I saw them all as we passed. Is that some bizarre form of "progress"?

Incidentally, regarding replacement, it was notable that the GW outer suburban train, serving local points beyond Slough, was still run express to there. No attempt was made to service the intermediate stations, which at 1100 had nobody on the platforms at all, so had presumably been closed. It's not as if there was keenness to keep punctuality - it departed 10 minutes late and arrived at Slough, its first stop, 22 minutes late.

Because it was unsafe to do so, you’d have to talk past multiple signals which would add considerable pressure to the signaller desk in of the busiest routes in the country. As for progress, well that depends on the performance of NR Western, which is one of the worst in the country. But yes it was a complex failure, and referring to processes that are 30+ years old isn’t helpful.

I don’t know if requests were made to run with additional stops on the GWR Didcot Parkway services but even if they were that would still be conditional on another operator saying yes and whether they were happy to absorb that delay. The fact that the trains were running late and were losing more time, would suggest not.

 

[GordonT]

You can challenge and challenge and challenge but ultimately if the infrastructure provider says “No”, what is the operator to do?

A scenario which I suspect has prevailed almost continuously from train operators since the genesis of former Railtrack.

 

[Purple Train]

Why can't they enter service? In the bad old days, short of a loco falling into the turntable pit and stranding those on the radiating lines, things were circumvented. If there was a signal failure there were straightforward procedures to go past the red which delayed things for a few minutes each train.

In the bad old days, there were multiple fatalities in accidents caused by human error in such situations.

 

[Horizon22]

A scenario which I suspect has prevailed almost continuously from train operators since the genesis of former Railtrack.

Of course. And no doubt even in BR days the same discussions happened between operations and infrastructure divisions on a daily basis. Sometimes one side (or both) doesn’t fully appreciate the needs of the other.

 

[GordonT]

A bit like blaming National Express or Megabus for roadworks?

In an earlier part of my life I have attended meetings at which bus company Traffic Managers have thumped the table with their fists in the midst of heated discussions with local authority representatives with the busmen protesting in no uncertain terms about lack of prior warning of roadworks affecting services. I am unsure whether train operators are all as strident as they could be in fighting their corner.

 

[Samzino]

Mess is hampered now by driver displacements and units in the wrong locations. Will run into the next peak.

 

[matt_world2004]

A bit like blaming National Express or Megabus for roadworks?

I would expect national express to know of roadworks on routes they regularly run and take steps to mitigate them

 

[800001]

Why can't they enter service? In the bad old days, short of a loco falling into the turntable pit and stranding those on the radiating lines, things were circumvented. If there was a signal failure there were straightforward procedures to go past the red which delayed things for a few minutes each train.

This "signal failure" seems to have happened overnight and the trains were all still in the depot as it came up to midday. I saw them all as we passed. Is that some bizarre form of "progress"?

Incidentally, regarding replacement, it was notable that the GW outer suburban train, serving local points beyond Slough, was still run express to there. No attempt was made to service the intermediate stations, which at 1100 had nobody on the platforms at all, so had presumably been closed. It's not as if there was keenness to keep punctuality - it departed 10 minutes late and arrived at Slough, its first stop, 22 minutes late.

It's getting on for 1400 now. Everything Elizabeth still seems to be cancelled out west.

There were multiple signal aspects changing aspects, and multiple Track circuit failures.

One of the ways to mitigate some of this this morning was to clamp points to allow entry/exit to cross rail depot, this then meant no route on the relief lines towards Ealing.

By clamping points for access to depot, services departing depot had to be talked past 3 signals, this gave a route for 3 trains per hour in each direction on/off depot.

Multiple other issues and as other people have pointed out this then places a massive workload on the signaller controlling that area.

 

[Goldfish62]

In an earlier part of my life I have attended meetings at which bus company Traffic Managers have thumped the table with their fists in the midst of heated discussions with local authority representatives with the busmen protesting in no uncertain terms about lack of prior warning of roadworks affecting services. I am unsure whether train operators are all as strident as they could be in fighting their corner.

The bus industry is still a very shouty affair. Far more so than the rail industry it's often livelihoods at stake.

 

[Samzino]

3Y37 now casuing issues after an emergency brake application at Paddington

 

[Jamiescott1]

Causing knock on issues for Thames Valley lines.
Marlow branch trains cancelled as guard stuck in delays on mainline

 

[setdown]

Interesting how TfL is now showing 'Severe Delays' for west of Paddington. It was showing Part Suspension earlier, and there's still nothing running, so I wonder why they changed it.

Hands-up my mistake, it's just westbound services from the core that's suspended

 

[Purple Train]

Apparently the 1538 Paddington-Didcot Parkway is calling additionally at the Elizabeth line services normally served by Reading trains. Excellent to see some co-operation for once.

How does route learning/competency work in such a scenario? Will a GWR driver be adjudged competent to stop at the likes of Iver, Langley, Taplow, etc., which have not been served by GWR for some time, or would an EL driver be required to conduct?

 

[matt_world2004]

Apparently the 1538 Paddington-Didcot Parkway is calling additionally at the Elizabeth line services normally served by Reading trains. Excellent to see some co-operation for once.

How does route learning/competency work in such a scenario? Will a GWR driver be adjudged competent to stop at the likes of Iver, Langley, Taplow, etc., which have not been served by GWR for some time, or would an EL driver be required to conduct?

GwR drivers would still be trained to stop there as they currently do early in the morning and late evening

 

[Mag_seven]

According to GWR Journey Check its a data link fault. Why does such a thing take so long to fix bearing in mind this has been going on all day?

Great Western Railway JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Great Western Railway JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

A fault with a data link between signalling equipment means that we are unable to use some lines between London Paddington and Ealing Broadway. Network Rail engineers are on site investigating the fault.

 

[Taunton]

I am guessing that as things didn't work from first train there had been some overnight works which didn't go to plan.

Debating now how to get home. Seems like there may be an hourly service to Paddington main line. I'm guessing nothing will work reasonably now before tomorrow at least.

 

[GordonT]

Another unfortunate consequence is that the disproportionately high volume of cancellations specific to the Elizabeth Line tends to swamp PAD departure boards meaning it can take a while to confirm journey details for the GWR stuff.

 

[apbj]

Today's massive disruption also speaks to poor communications and accountability from the Elizabeth line compared to TfL tube equivalent. If a tube line had been up the spout in such a major way, there would have been a mass email by now, in the name of the line manager, apologising and setting out the ongoing impact or next steps. Absolutely nothing today, not even a whiteboard at Ealing Broadway. I don't even know who the 'head' of the Elizabeth line is. And then there's TfL refusing perfectly legitimate delay refund requests, knowing that there's no way of appealing.

 

[Goldfish62]

Today's massive disruption also speaks to poor communications and accountability from the Elizabeth line compared to TfL tube equivalent. If a tube line had been up the spout in such a major way, there would have been a mass email by now, in the name of the line manager, apologising and setting out the ongoing impact or next steps. Absolutely nothing today, not even a whiteboard at Ealing Broadway. I don't even know who the 'head' of the Elizabeth line is. And then there's TfL refusing perfectly legitimate delay refund requests, knowing that there's no way of appealing.

Howard Smith is the Director of Elizabeth line (the TfL bit, not the concession). He's widely regarded as highly competent and was largely responsible for getting the Overground up and running.

I forget the name of the MD of MTR Elizabeth line.

All irrelevant anyway. The comms seem appalling. Most if not all the central London stations are staffed by LU staff - they must hate the constant disruption and lack of information.

 

[sp503]

Howard Smith is the Director of Elizabeth line (the TfL bit, not the concession). He's widely regarded as highly competent and was largely responsible for getting the Overground up and running.

I forget the name of the MD of MTR Elizabeth line.

All irrelevant anyway. The comms seem appalling. Most if not all the central London stations are staffed by LU staff - they must hate the constant disruption and lack of information.

Perhaps not entirely related, but I also find Elizabeth Line’s cancellation notice come very late, as compared to, say, GWR. It doesn’t take a genius to know that with no trains arriving in Reading for the coming 30 minutes, the service to Abbey Wood due now would have no chance but to be cancelled right? And yet the cancellation information never appear until like 20 minutes after the scheduled departure time…

 

[bicbasher]

Howard Smith is the Director of Elizabeth line (the TfL bit, not the concession). He's widely regarded as highly competent and was largely responsible for getting the Overground up and running.

I forget the name of the MD of MTR Elizabeth line.

Mike Bagshaw.

 

[Samzino]

Disruption will most likely last till end of service.

Driver displacement hampering recovery here and there



(19:23) 9B94 now undergoing a train reset due to a fault issue aswell.

 

[Taunton]

It's not just driver displacement. There are only maybe one or two trains circulating on the western end, from Paddington main line. Meanwhile, passing the depot at Old Oak, almost every siding seemed to have a train parked.

Passed I think one Elizabeth train running, while returning Slough to Paddington nonstop on GWR. Again the Relief line platforms seemed deserted. I guess people have got used to the unreliability of rail nowadays, and have their own alternatives. The one exception was a large crowd had been admitted to the Down Main platform at Ealing Broadway, presumably something was about to stop and pick them up.

The comment above about poor information is correct, consistently the next Liz train only is shown as Cancelled, it is only as things step up that the next one is shown likewise.

The Heathrow Express, just when needed to replace the Liz trains to Heathrow, likewise seemed to have half or more of its services cancelled. If you wonder where the branded trains are, they are filling up the West Ealing sidings. As the Main lines still seemed to be fully running it was not apparent why.

Can someone please tell Paddington departure board control that, at such times of gross disruption, the "Special Notices" panel in the main boards is to describe such situations. NOT to show "CCTV is in use". Which is what was on there. How stupid.

 

[Acton1991]

The general public are now starting to really query the reliability of the Elizabeth line - when people are suggesting it’s easier to drive or to stick to the tube (which takes far longer), it doesn’t look good!

When it’s good, it’s great. But when it’s bad it seems to just completely fall apart. Usually in the peak!