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Elizabeth line reliability issues

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Annetts key

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This problem appears to be interference on both datalinks that serve part if the area.
Last night, as I understand it sixteen points were clipped.

With computer based signalling systems, the main computers (the interlocking) are located in the signalling centre. Trackside Functional Modules or TFM) located in lineside cupboards control the signals, points, plus receive information from the track circuits or axle counters. The interlocking uses the datalinks to communicate with the TFMs.

If communication fails, all the relevant signals and points have to be considered as defective.

The system is designed with two datalinks for system redundancy. In an idea world, if one datalink fails, everything continues working using the remaining “good” datalink.

However, in practice, some failure modes affect both datalinks. When this happens, the signaller looses control of hundreds of items of signalling equipment.

There is no work around for this apart from clipping points and talking past red signals. Or introducing long block manual working (where drivers are instructed to pass multiple signals in one instruction).

Unfortunately, when the problem is interference on both datalinks, it is very difficult to track down the cause. A process of elimination has to be done, with the techs visiting every single location cupboard where the datalinks visit.

As the railway reduces the number of staff and resources, should a failure like the above occur, it takes longer to locate the problem and to try to implement manual signalling. For example, it’s not uncommon for the staff on the ground to find that they don’t have enough point clips to secure all the points.

Lack of staff, staff running out of shift time, lack of spares all add to the problems.
 
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Horizon22

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This problem appears to be interference on both datalinks that serve part if the area.
Last night, as I understand it sixteen points were clipped.

With computer based signalling systems, the main computers (the interlocking) are located in the signalling centre. Trackside Functional Modules or TFM) located in lineside cupboards control the signals, points, plus receive information from the track circuits or axle counters. The interlocking uses the datalinks to communicate with the TFMs.

If communication fails, all the relevant signals and points have to be considered as defective.

The system is designed with two datalinks for system redundancy. In an idea world, if one datalink fails, everything continues working using the remaining “good” datalink.

However, in practice, some failure modes affect both datalinks. When this happens, the signaller looses control of hundreds of items of signalling equipment.

There is no work around for this apart from clipping points and talking past red signals. Or introducing long block manual working (where drivers are instructed to pass multiple signals in one instruction).

Unfortunately, when the problem is interference on both datalinks, it is very difficult to track down the cause. A process of elimination has to be done, with the techs visiting every single location cupboard where the datalinks visit.

As the railway reduces the number of staff and resources, should a failure like the above occur, it takes longer to locate the problem and to try to implement manual signalling. For example, it’s not uncommon for the staff on the ground to find that they don’t have enough point clips to secure all the points.

Lack of staff, staff running out of shift time, lack of spares all add to the problems.

Very informative. Reports are teams are getting dozens if not hundreds of error messages and have been since yesterday afternoon. As you say, it’s incredibly time consuming to resolve.

I wouldn’t be surprised if disruption continues until the end of the day.
 

Annetts key

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The other thing to note is that until the cause of the datalink problem is found, any estimates of a return to normal availability of the infrastructure are just guesses.
 

t_packer

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Passenger info still pretty poor on the Lizzie this morning! Some West services cancelled and everything running to Paddington mainline, but West Drayton had a “quote of the day” on the whiteboard rather than disruption info…

PIS on my train is also still announcing Abbey Wood, and the TfL service status says nothing about the Liz using Paddington mainline.

It sounds like engineers are working flat out to solve this really complex issue - but it doesn’t feel like this is being communicated to passengers. Even our driver mentioned no more than “ongoing issues”.
 

setdown

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Managed to get to Paddington at about 9am to continue my journey eastwards on the core.

Obviously with everything else going on, the train thought it’d be great fun to have a door fault. The incident response engineer couldn’t get it to close, as if there was something physical blocking the mechanism. The door open chime sounded like it was having a heart attack.

Eventually the decision was made to cancel the train and get everyone off. About 10 seconds after everyone got off, that door specifically closed automatically, and politely locked itself out of use. The engineer was very surprised. The train then continued out of service regardless. Good to see software have a sense of humour!
 

Mag_seven

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I opted to get from Paddington to Euston via the traditional tube route this morning-god knows what the Liz line would have been like if the tube strike had still been on!
 

Horizon22

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I opted to get from Paddington to Euston via the traditional tube route this morning-god knows what the Liz line would have been like if the tube strike had still been on!

Probably serious crowd control but the buses & all alternatives would be overloaded already. I shudder to think although that could WFH probably would!
 

SECR263

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Has TFL made any commemts officially yet? On 1038 now to T4, but no comments re this problem at PADD mainline. No announcements at Faringdon today re service disruption. At least the driver at Padd said go to mainline to see if onward services available which was good.
 

matt_world2004

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On Tuesday 25th July at 1:45am GwR requested ticket acceptance on London Buses described as being due to a signal failure in the Ladbroke Grove area . Would this have been the same problem ? I know the signal failure didn't happen in the Ladbroke Grove area but from experience, the geographic area when describing an incident for ticket acceptance can be rather broad.
 

Annetts key

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On Tuesday 25th July at 1:45am GwR requested ticket acceptance on London Buses described as being due to a signal failure in the Ladbroke Grove area . Would this have been the same problem ? I know the signal failure didn't happen in the Ladbroke Grove area but from experience, the geographic area when describing an incident for ticket acceptance can be rather broad.
Yes. This problem is across an area, not at one spot.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Chaos reigns again at Paddington.
All Elizabeth Line trains from the east still terminating at the low-level platforms.
Upstairs, the departure boards as of 11:04 were showing a Reading EL service at 11:17 with ‘please wait’. The time came and went; the train disappeared off the boards with no explanation and no opportunity to board (if it ran at all).
Next EL train was shown as the 11:47 with a ‘please wait’ tag.
Realtime Trains was no help, either.

Finally, at about 11:22, an announcement was made saying a Heathrow Terminal 5 train would be leaving from Platform 12 (near to which I had been waiting). I’d estimate people were given about 3 minutes before the doors closed and we departed. So no chance for people waiting over the other side of the concourse!!
Now typing this as we are sat at a red signal not far beyond where the underground lines peel off towards Hammersmith.
So not impressed with this.
Couldn’t see any GWR services making additional stops anywhere before Slough, either…
UPDATE: making very slow progress. Lots of signal stops
 
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Samzino

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So the 10am repair shout was as I expected not happening. Expecting day 2 to end like day 1.
 
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Jamiescott1

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So the 10am repair shout was as I expected not happening. Expecting day 2 to end like day 1.
Its getting worse. All didcot stoppers now cancelled and only EL services every 30 minutes for intermediate stations to maidenhead.

Journey planner saying Paddington to marlow next services are 1418 and 1650. Nothing in between
 

Samzino

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Its getting worse. All didcot stoppers now cancelled and only EL services every 30 minutes for intermediate stations to maidenhead.

Journey planner saying Paddington to marlow next services are 1418 and 1650. Nothing in between
Welp can only imagine the mess in 3hrs and 30mins when evening peak begins
 

ChewChewTrain

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Its getting worse. All didcot stoppers now cancelled and only EL services every 30 minutes for intermediate stations to maidenhead.

Journey planner saying Paddington to marlow next services are 1418 and 1650. Nothing in between
I know this is probably what you meant anyway, but just to clarify that the Didcots are still running from Reading. Fairly standard when there’s disruption or a strike.

It wasn’t too bad getting from Paddington to Goring just now (with a change), but I do feel for those who’ll be trying to get to stations between Acton and Twyford in a few hours.
 

t_packer

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Yeah we’re still on the emergency timetable coming up to the evening peak, which itself is still being subject to delays. GWR comms good as far as I can tell but information from TfL pretty poor. Drivers giving limited information (and no apologies!), and barely any information on TfL channels besides “severe delays”.

Totally understand the complexity of the signalling issue, but I think it’s been the lack of communication letting down the Liz these past two days.
 

Acton1991

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Peak looks like it's going to be a mess. Do we reckon this will head into a third day?
Very strange that there have been no emails or social media updates from TfL to explain the situation in further detail and what is being done to help rectify.
 

t_packer

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Peak looks like it's going to be a mess. Do we reckon this will head into a third day?
Very strange that there have been no emails or social media updates from TfL to explain the situation in further detail and what is being done to help rectify.
This from Network Rail is really informative https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1684215899295809538?s=46&t=0eD2f57GNzZU6XDIdukAug

But you’re right that nowhere near this level of detail or acknowledgement is being conveyed to the average Liz passenger.
 

JN114

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There are some encouraging noises coming from teams on site that restoration of normal working is imminent; however displaced unit and crew situation will still take time to unravel.
 

Bald Rick

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Yesterday on both occasions there were no trains on the boards at Paddington to Heathrow AT ALL. Not one. Just the next HEx shown as cancelled.

That’s interesting I was at Paddington HL yesterday, briefly, and saw an EL train arrive and depart.
 

800301

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As of 1745 normal working has resumed, obviously it will take a lot of time for things to get back to a full timetable
 

Acton1991

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setdown

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As of 1745 normal working has resumed, obviously it will take a lot of time for things to get back to a full timetable
It’ll be nice if someone told the staff on the Elizabeth line platforms at Paddington, telling people to leave the platforms even though a through service to Heathrow was leaving a minute later
 

Samzino

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9T21 I see from Shenfield is making its way out of the COS soon towards Heathrow T5. No resume of thru running tho it seems from ABW atm but that may change by 7pm. Alas the saga is reaching a fine conclusion.
 

Horizon22

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I would expect with what looks like a reliable Paddington - Abbey Wood shuttle and departures from the mainline station now leaving on-time (albeit reduced) that the current method of working would be kept in place until the end of service. Once you’ve reliable put plans in place and realised drivers, undoing it can cause even more problems.
 

Samzino

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I would expect with what looks like a reliable Paddington - Abbey Wood shuttle and departures from the mainline station now leaving on-time (albeit reduced) that the current method of working would be kept in place until the end of service. Once you’ve reliable put plans in place and realised drivers, undoing it can cause even more problems.
Indeed, Shenfield I expect will run the Heathrow thru trains for now. Good thing is 9T21 passed thru COS without any issues ontime.
9U19 is going to from what I know attempt aswell to go thru the COS hauling a service from Terminal 4 to Abbey Wood.
 

Horizon22

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Indeed, Shenfield I expect will run the Heathrow thru trains for now. Good thing is 9T21 passed thru COS without any issues ontime.
9U19 is going to from what I know attempt aswell to go thru the COS hauling a service from Terminal 4 to Abbey Wood.

Yes that will be a plus at least as will what appears to be an increased service at GEML stations.
 
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