Why do people not move down carriages to make more space?

[infobleep]

Why don't people move further back down the train to other carriages at the back to free up space for people standing? I see this semi-regularly. Busy carriages and then further back less so. If you get on in a busy carriage it will be quite hard to go further back. I have actually attend es this in the past.

Most of the time you are unaware it will be busy and you won't always know when it will be busy or you would go further back to start with every time.

Today I'm travelling from Guildford to Brockenhurst.

I arrived about 2 minutes before the 12 car train to Waterloo was due to leave.

However, I hadn't antispated a full and standing train to turn up as I didn't know the 9:04 was cancelled.

It would have been help if station staff were made aware of this and told us to spread out more along the platform. Anyone for Worpolesden, Woking and London Waterloo try coaches 11 to 12 as they have more space, for example.

I understand people for Clapham Junction needed to be in the front 10 carriages but I can't believe they were all going to Clapham Junction. After all there is normally only 1 can't train an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction on Saturdays.

Not knowing how long the train would be remaining on the platform I got on in carriage 8.

A lady with a small child and push chair managed to also get on after me.

At Worpolesdon I got off and got back in, in coach 9 as I didn't know how long the train would wait. Ny aim had been to reach coach 12 to see how busy it would be. As it turns out I would have had time and surprise surprise, when I did get to Woking, that coach had multiple seats free, never mind more standing space.

Even coach 11 had more standing space and maybe seats free.

On my next train I got in at coach 1 and it too was packed. I didn't go further back as the train starts from Waterloo and I decided it would be just as full at the back

As it was the guard said the train was full and standing not so long after I got on. So for this service I wouldn't have had time to go back, even though I did on the previous service.

This train could have done with being 10 carrtaiges instead of 8 but that's for another discussion. Actually u lot of people got off at Basingstoke for some reason so got a seat in the front carriage as did others.

I just add the guards did correctly declassifiy first class and they did communicate to passengers and you could hear what they were saying.

 

[reb0118]

On the Edinburgh to Glasgow Express services (eight carriages) it's can be common to depart with the rear coach full & standing but with empty tables of four in the front. One passenger told me it was too far to go just to get a seat - even though she would have had to have walked past it to exit the station at the other end.

If the service leaves from a non buffer end platform then wherever the stairs lead to will be the busiest carriage.

Most passengers generally remain in the carriage that they board - regardless of how busy it is, or becomes.

 

[BJames]

On the Edinburgh to Glasgow Express services (eight carriages) it's can be common to depart with the rear coach full & standing but with empty tables of four in the front. One passenger told me it was too far to go just to get a seat - even though she would have had to have walked past it to exit the station at the other end.

If the service leaves from a non buffer end platform then wherever the stairs lead to will be the busiest carriage.

Most passengers generally remain in the carriage that they board - regardless of how busy it is, or becomes.

Indeed - I recall a double 180 out of St Pancras a few months back, completely rammed in the rear unit with no space whatsoever to squeeze on. I was the only person in the very front carriage as far as Kettering, where I was joined by two other people. I suspect in this instance, because the second carriage from the front was first class, perhaps some had made an assumption that the very front carriage would be first class too so didn't walk up to check. But even the other standard class carriages in this unit were significantly quieter than the rear set.

Especially on commuter services, people will board where they are used to boarding because they know where the exits are.

Why don't people move further back down the train to other carriages at the back to free up space for people standing? I see this semi-regularly. Busy carriages and then further back less so. If you get on in a busy carriage it will be quite hard to go further back. I have actually attend es this in the past.

Most of the time you are unaware it will be busy and you won't always know when it will be busy or you would go further back to start with every time.

Today I'm travelling from Guildford to Brockenhurst.

I arrived about 2 minutes before the 12 car train to Waterloo was due to leave.

However, I hadn't antispated a full and standing train to turn up as I didn't know the 9:04 was cancelled.

It would have been help if station staff were made aware of this and told us to spread out more along the platform. Anyone for Worpolesden, Woking and London Waterloo try coaches 11 to 12 as they have more space, for example.

They do this in many locations but a lot of people will stubbornly stand where they've decided they want to board.

 

[duncanp]

The London Underground also has this issue.

Carriages at the end of the train tend to be noticeably quieter than those in the centre.

 

[Purple Train]

I had this on a GWR Paddington-Bristol Temple Meads yesterday. Full of tourists going to Bath, and utterly packed at the rear - yet, in the front two carriages, there was loads of space, to the point that the Train Manager made an announcement after Swindon saying, "There are lots of unoccupied seats in carriage A and carriage B, if those who are standing wish to move further down the train." Not many people did...

 

[al78]

It is an issue on my twice weekly commute to Farringdon with the frequent periodic disruption resulting in my train being rammed especially from East Croydon. The driver does make an announcement for passengers to move down inside the carriage but based on my experience, many people in SE England have poor spatial awareness. It is possible that some people may be reluctant to move well down because they are concerned about having to get past the crowd to get off the train if their destination station is not far. It is definitely not an issue of spatial distribution of passengers as the overhead monitors show the train full along its length.

 

[Towers]

I had this on a GWR Paddington-Bristol Temple Meads yesterday. Full of tourists going to Bath, and utterly packed at the rear - yet, in the front two carriages, there was loads of space, to the point that the Train Manager made an announcement after Swindon saying, "There are lots of unoccupied seats in carriage A and carriage B, if those who are standing wish to move further down the train." Not many people did...

Try travelling on a 2x5 car set! Front set usually has about 7 people in it!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At intermediate stops, short dwell times could mean that the train may already have left by the time you've made your way down to the far end of the platform for the (hopefully relatively empty?) carriages.

And it could also be difficult if you do board at the nearest door in manoeuvring your way down an 8 car (or longer) train if it's busy, and who's to say that the other end will be all that less crowded anyway.

 

[Topological]

Try travelling on a 2x5 car set! Front set usually has about 7 people in it!

Regularly find that on the Swansea trains. Interestingly the Swansea buffer stop end remains relatively empty going towards Paddington. It is almost like people have an aversion to the westernmost carriage.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I was on an Avanti Voyager yesterday and people were choosing to stand in the vestibules despite the presence of several unreserved, unoccupied bays of 4 in the same carriage.

 

[bramling]

Why don't people move further back down the train to other carriages at the back to free up space for people standing? I see this semi-regularly. Busy carriages and then further back less so. If you get on in a busy carriage it will be quite hard to go further back. I have actually attend es this in the past.

Most of the time you are unaware it will be busy and you won't always know when it will be busy or you would go further back to start with every time.

Today I'm travelling from Guildford to Brockenhurst.

I arrived about 2 minutes before the 12 car train to Waterloo was due to leave.

However, I hadn't antispated a full and standing train to turn up as I didn't know the 9:04 was cancelled.

It would have been help if station staff were made aware of this and told us to spread out more along the platform. Anyone for Worpolesden, Woking and London Waterloo try coaches 11 to 12 as they have more space, for example.

I understand people for Clapham Junction needed to be in the front 10 carriages but I can't believe they were all going to Clapham Junction. After all there is normally only 1 can't train an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction on Saturdays.

Not knowing how long the train would be remaining on the platform I got on in carriage 8.

A lady with a small child and push chair managed to also get on after me.

At Worpolesdon I got off and got back in, in coach 9 as I didn't know how long the train would wait. Ny aim had been to reach coach 12 to see how busy it would be. As it turns out I would have had time and surprise surprise, when I did get to Woking, that coach had multiple seats free, never mind more standing space.

Even coach 11 had more standing space and maybe seats free.

On my next train I got in at coach 1 and it too was packed. I didn't go further back as the train starts from Waterloo and I decided it would be just as full at the back

As it was the guard said the train was full and standing not so long after I got on. So for this service I wouldn't have had time to go back, even though I did on the previous service.

This train could have done with being 10 carrtaiges instead of 8 but that's for another discussion. Actually u lot of people got off at Basingstoke for some reason so got a seat in the front carriage as did others.

I just add the guards did correctly declassifiy first class and they did communicate to passengers and you could hear what they were saying.

Is any of this actually a problem? If people choose not to spread out, then it’s good for those who do make the effort.

 

[kristiang85]

I always go to the far end of platforms to get on trains, and usually it's nice and quiet. Even if up front people are playing sardines...

Going into Waterloo it does mystify me how someone would rather spend an hour standing with their nose in a stranger's armpit to save a minute of walking at the destination, when they could sit in comfort at the back.

 

[bramling]

I always go to the far end of platforms to get on trains, and usually it's nice and quiet. Even if up front people are playing sardines...

Going into Waterloo it does mystify me how someone would rather spend an hour standing with their nose in a stranger's armpit to save a minute of walking at the destination, when they could sit in comfort at the back.

People are very weird when it comes to being in the right place for their destination. On the GN out of King’s Cross, Hitchin is the worst for it. People start heading for the doors up to 10 minutes before arrival. I can, kind of, get this if it means a quicker exit from the car park, but I don’t believe this is the case for most people.

 

[londonbridge]

For regular journeys people will sometimes work out which carriage they need to be in so that they are near the stairs/platform exit when they disembark so that they can make a quick a getaway and avoid being caught up in the crowd or having to walk half the length of the platform before exiting the station.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I had this on a GWR Paddington-Bristol Temple Meads yesterday. Full of tourists going to Bath, and utterly packed at the rear - yet, in the front two carriages, there was loads of space, to the point that the Train Manager made an announcement after Swindon saying, "There are lots of unoccupied seats in carriage A and carriage B, if those who are standing wish to move further down the train." Not many people did...

I often have (the pleasure of) a similar experience on a 10-car 444 out of London Waterloo some late evenings. The first few coaches closest to the buffers showcase a mass of red-faced passengers squashed against the windows and gasping for air, whilst I make my way to the the first coach and find I'm often the only one in there.

As like with your example, the guard may - or may not - make an announcement, but it's a futile effort anyhow as nobody ever moves, and by Clapham Junction you'll have a furious few taking to Twitter (often including exclusive photos of the inside of a sardine can) unbeknownst to the serenity and bliss towards the front of the train.

Should said 10-car 444 be substituted for a 5-car 444 however, then it all becomes a very different story indeed - hold on tight and be prepared to breathe in...!

 

[reb0118]

Is any of this actually a problem?

Yes. Asymmetric passenger loading causes localised congestion. Makes it difficult for train crew & catering trolleys to get through, not to mention the increased risk of potential danger and delay.

 

[Buzby]

When I was quite young (5-6) I sussed this on the Glasgow ‘Blue Trains’ which were 303/311’s. Peak times they were 6 coaches, Off Peak 3 so I became adept at walking up the platform to the 3 or 6 marker normally at the opposite end from the entrance. The only times this failed was when at peak times a 3 car turned up, necessitating quite a run to jump on and play sardine. I quickly realised you really can’t beat the system because Sods Law will dictate much of your journey’s comfort!

 

[Topological]

The value of services like RealTimeTrains so you can know exactly where the doors will be. Invaluable on Manchester Marches trains where TfW will be sending an inadequate provision with near certainty and knowing the doors are at 1/3rds for a 150 is a major advantage over people who think they are clever being 2 carriages from the buffers.

 

[GardenRail]

Why don't people move further back down the train to other carriages at the back to free up space for people standing? I see this semi-regularly. Busy carriages and then further back less so. If you get on in a busy carriage it will be quite hard to go further back. I have actually attend es this in the past.

Most of the time you are unaware it will be busy and you won't always know when it will be busy or you would go further back to start with every time.

Today I'm travelling from Guildford to Brockenhurst.

I arrived about 2 minutes before the 12 car train to Waterloo was due to leave.

However, I hadn't antispated a full and standing train to turn up as I didn't know the 9:04 was cancelled.

It would have been help if station staff were made aware of this and told us to spread out more along the platform. Anyone for Worpolesden, Woking and London Waterloo try coaches 11 to 12 as they have more space, for example.

I understand people for Clapham Junction needed to be in the front 10 carriages but I can't believe they were all going to Clapham Junction. After all there is normally only 1 can't train an hour from Guildford to Clapham Junction on Saturdays.

Not knowing how long the train would be remaining on the platform I got on in carriage 8.

A lady with a small child and push chair managed to also get on after me.

At Worpolesdon I got off and got back in, in coach 9 as I didn't know how long the train would wait. Ny aim had been to reach coach 12 to see how busy it would be. As it turns out I would have had time and surprise surprise, when I did get to Woking, that coach had multiple seats free, never mind more standing space.

Even coach 11 had more standing space and maybe seats free.

On my next train I got in at coach 1 and it too was packed. I didn't go further back as the train starts from Waterloo and I decided it would be just as full at the back

As it was the guard said the train was full and standing not so long after I got on. So for this service I wouldn't have had time to go back, even though I did on the previous service.

This train could have done with being 10 carrtaiges instead of 8 but that's for another discussion. Actually u lot of people got off at Basingstoke for some reason so got a seat in the front carriage as did others.

I just add the guards did correctly declassifiy first class and they did communicate to passengers and you could hear what they were saying.

Because they're clearly not bothered or phased by it. Personally I walk right to the front or back, whichever quieter.

 

[Skiddaw]

I was on an Avanti Voyager yesterday and people were choosing to stand in the vestibules despite the presence of several unreserved, unoccupied bays of 4 in the same carriage.

TBH I sometimes do that just because I prefer standing to sitting especially if the vestibule area is quiet and I'm not going far.

 

[Some guy]

All the time on the Avanti services the reserved coaches are hammered and then U and G are quiet

 

[BeijingDave]

Happened to me on the Euston-Piccadilly service today. All the reserved coaches were full with people standing in the aisles. With an off peak return and no designated seat, I pushed through past the buffet to the unreserved section and found about 3 other people in that whole coach.

 

[AM9]

Is any of this actually a problem? If people choose not to spread out, then it’s good for those who do make the effort.

I agree with that absolutely. Way back in my commuting days, I sometimes travelled in class 309 express trains, which were TSOs or similar. If they were crowded, the car end vestibules were packed, but the saloons were just fullof seated passengers. I would normally go straight into the saloons and stand between the 2+2 seats somewhere near the middle of the car. There was much more room, it was quieter and every seat had a hand grab so far preferable to being wedged in the dark vestibule. The real benefit of being in the car was when the train approached the next stop, it was easy to see various seated passengers clearing the table of their belongings to alight. When the train actually stopped, I had the pick of the vacated seats, whilst the twits in the vestibule could only look at the queue of passengers coming towards them as they exited via the vestibule.

 

[jon81uk]

The London Underground also has this issue.

Carriages at the end of the train tend to be noticeably quieter than those in the centre.

I avoid the end cars on the Underground as they don’t have windows on both ends so can get warmer with the lower airflow.

Is any of this actually a problem? If people choose not to spread out, then it’s good for those who do make the effort.

The problem is if everyone blocks the doors then people who are happy to stand in the aisle aren’t even able to board.

 

[TUC]

The issue isn't so much passengers all occupying one carriage when others are emptier, but rather them all clustering around the doors when there is room to move down the aisles, even when more passengers are visibly trying to board. What don't they just move down?

 

[randyrippley]

I arrived about 2 minutes before the 12 car train to Waterloo was due to leave.

There's the root cause of your problem
Next time arrive earlier so you've time to find a seat

 

[stan claire]

My local line is operated by 6 car 331s (3+3) on most journeys. As they use P14 at Piccadilly you'll always find that there'll be loads of people in the front set and not realise that there's more space and the back unit will be almost empty when going to Blackpool. Same happens at Preston and Bolton with loads more people in the rear set than the front set going to Manchester. As there are no connecting gangways on 331s (which they should've made them with) and people don't know there's another half of the train it's quite unbalanced sometimes.

 

[BeijingDave]

The issue isn't so much passengers all occupying one carriage when others are emptier, but rather them all clustering around the doors when there is room to move down the aisles, even when more passengers are visibly trying to board. What don't they just move down?

Well some of the problem was, as always, Euston.

Departure time was 11:33 and at 11:27 the queue for ticket checking was still backed up to the top of the Platform 7 entrance ramp, so with only a few minutes left to board, people (including me) obviously got on the train rather than risk walking down and the doors closing.

The solution to the Euston rush seems clear to me: Install sliding doors on the platform and allow passengers to arrive in the right spot on the correct platform in good time. Meanwhile keep the sliding doors closed until the cleaning staff have finished. It happens in other countries, so it must be affordable and achievable here.

 

[Kite159]

Don't you know it's a golden rule in the "Wisdom of the Norm" book, that there is only one set of doors on the train and they can't walk along the platform as the train might go without them (even with 5+ minutes until departure).

Same with Weymouth - London trains which call at Basingstoke, front unit could be full & standing with lots of empty seats in the rear coaches

Although I know on some lines in northern land which operate with non gangway stock (150/1s, 185, 195, 331s) the front unit can be popular with those who think payment is optional and would rather stand than risk getting in the rear unit where they might have to pay

 

[stan claire]

Although I know on some lines in northern land which operate with non gangway stock (150/1s, 185, 195, 331s) the front unit can be popular with those who think payment is optional and would rather stand than risk getting in the rear unit where they might have to pay

Happens all the time on my route. Mainly groups of younger kids get on the front 331 to avoid paying for a ticket, the other day my train had RPOs in the front set and a girl got fined and she was so mad about it LOL