Would an absolute back to basics car sell well today?

[John Luxton]

A vehicle like the Citroën Ami doesn't have such issues as it isn't technically a car, but does have a limited speed, but is perhaps the ideal car for short commutes and the like - the Fiat version arguably looking even nicer, but pricier. Second hand ones are very cheap and as long as you wouldn't be using 50, 60 or 70mph roads (and they're not allowed on motorways at all) then you'd probably find it cheap to buy and even cheaper to run. They look like great fun, and certainly are basic.

I have only seen one Ami on the roads. Last December I was heading north along the busy A49 just south of Shrewsbury when coming the other way with a very long line of traffic behind was a Citroen Ami with two people in it. Even the big, state of the art, tractor immediately behind looked impatient to pass! Ami would probably be good if you lived on a small island say Isles of Scilly but not really practical elsewhere.

 

[DustyBin]

Okay, since it seems that such an offering would be nearly as expensive as a modern car, what about selling it as a vehicle for people who want old school motoring, but without the worry of damaging a classic car?

I may be being a bit daft and single minded with this idea, but it’s one I’ve had for a while, and I think it’d be good.

You can buy a brand new MK2 (or MK1 for that matter) Escort:

Design & Build Your Own Mk2 Fast Road Car | MST Cars

Find out about our Fast Road MST Mk2

mst-cars.com

(Link takes you to the road-going MK2 page on the manufacturer's website).

This is obviously driven by the ongoing demand for new motorsport shells, but it demonstrates what is possible. Not exactly cheap or back to basics though!

 

[m79900]

You can buy a brand new MK2 (or MK1 for that matter) Escort:

Design & Build Your Own Mk2 Fast Road Car | MST Cars

Find out about our Fast Road MST Mk2

mst-cars.com

(Link takes you to the road-going MK2 page on the manufacturer's website).

This is obviously driven by the ongoing demand for new motorsport shells, but it demonstrates what is possible. Not exactly cheap or back to basics though!

With an Austin Metro 6r4 coming next year! That’s insanely cool, but at that price...

This is the sort of thing I had in mind, but a much more basic non-rally version.

 

[jon0844]

I have only seen one Ami on the roads. Last December I was heading north along the busy A49 just south of Shrewsbury when coming the other way with a very long line of traffic behind was a Citroen Ami with two people in it. Even the big, state of the art, tractor immediately behind looked impatient to pass! Ami would probably be good if you lived on a small island say Isles of Scilly but not really practical elsewhere.

I've not seen one in the UK yet but many in France (Paris) and they seem fine for cities - as a Smart car was before Mercedes made it into an SUV sized tank.

I think the Ami looks a little too quirky for my taste (Fiat one is a lot better IMO) and it gets roasting in summer heat, but there are other 'cars' to choose from and more coming.

They'll probably succeed more than some ultra stripped out basic car using old tech designs. For people who need a faster car with more range, they're hardly likely to buy some bare bones retro car based on an ancient design, plus if they were made in low quantities they'd likely still end up too expensive.

 

[A0]

Crank windows aren't cheaper than electric as the mechanism is much more complex than a small electric motor, a belt drive and some switches (and it's harder to fit the mechanism in with the modern requirement for side impact protection). Hub caps cost a couple of quid each (the Dacia budget models do have steel wheels and hub caps). Touchscreens are cheaper than physical controls (much as I hate them). Safety stuff (e.g. airbags) is mandatory. And nobody likes plastic seats, so fabric is a basic expectation.

Thus, the Dacia Sandero base model is basically what you're talking about. I think there was a Tata one as well but not sure if it made it to the UK, but it was basically the same thing. Or the Jogger if you want an estate-cum-MPV-type-thing.

As to price all cars have got silly-expensive, it's partly Brexit and partly cheap credit allowing manufacturers to profiteer (which I suspect won't continue with rates likely to stay around 5-6% as is normal longer term).

Bit in bold - it's nothng to do with Brexit.

A brand new basic Dacia Sandero in France is 11,990 Euros, the same car in the UK is £ 12,935. There are additional costs of transporting to the UK and sales costs in the UK which account for the difference. It's always been the case that UK cars are slightly more expensive than those on mainland Europe.

 

[richw]

The basic MG3 and Dacia sandero are still available in very basic spec. They sell very few of these base spec compared to high spec versions, suggesting the British public don’t want basic cars.

 

[m79900]

The basic MG3 and Dacia sandero are still available in very basic spec. They sell very few of these base spec compared to high spec versions, suggesting the British public don’t want basic cars.

But if they were basic in a ‘retro’ way, might more people be interested?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit in bold - it's nothng to do with Brexit.

It is. Specifically because Brexit has made the Pound less valuable because it is bad for business.

A brand new basic Dacia Sandero in France is 11,990 Euros, the same car in the UK is £ 12,935. There are additional costs of transporting to the UK and sales costs in the UK which account for the difference. It's always been the case that UK cars are slightly more expensive than those on mainland Europe.

Not in recent years; in recent years British models were generally slightly cheaper, hence the near end to grey importing.

 

[richw]

But if they were basic in a ‘retro’ way, might more people be interested?

I think we’ve all grown to appreciate the extras too much. I’ve driven Cornwall to Gatwick today, cruise control on all the way. I don’t think I could get a car without it now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But if they were basic in a ‘retro’ way, might more people be interested?

Possibly- some modern features would really appeal to me (parking sensors for example) but I question the necessity of some, particularly electronic handbrakes, digital dashboards, and especially nonsense like Bluetooth connectivity with mobile phones. I managed fine ten years ago putting my phone on Airplane mode whenever I was driving, so that I wasn't tempted to answer a call while driving. Even using modern Bluetooth based handsfree is still a distraction, I'd much rather pretend it's 1990 when it comes to driving and phones. Roads would be safer all round if all cars had some sort of Voyager-style Faraday cage system that activated when the engine started (I'm joking, but I'm only half joking).

If someone offered new car that had a few things that were considered "luxury" in 1994 but none of the electronic nonsense (and didn't need a bloke with a laptop to diagnose basic faults) I'd snap their hands off!

 

[JohnMcL7]

I really can't see there being any demand beyond a small niche for such a basic car and the general demand is for more features not less, I can't see they could get the price low enough that people would choose it over a similar model with a range of features.

I have a 2011 car and there are some aspects I prefer of it over newer cars, it has a simple dash with analogue dials for speed and revs, it has physical controls for everything including the air handling system, it has a physical handbrake, no stop/start and no lane departure warnings. However it has plenty of fancier features including some more advanced ones for its time like blindside monitoring I wouldn't want to be without so certainly wouldn't want a basic car and when shopping cars, I usually go for a better spec when it's not that much more than a lower spec.

 

[DustyBin]

Possibly- some modern features would really appeal to me (parking sensors for example) but I question the necessity of some, particularly electronic handbrakes, digital dashboards, and especially nonsense like Bluetooth connectivity with mobile phones. I managed fine ten years ago putting my phone on Airplane mode whenever I was driving, so that I wasn't tempted to answer a call while driving. Even using modern Bluetooth based handsfree is still a distraction, I'd much rather pretend it's 1990 when it comes to driving and phones. Roads would be safer all round if all cars had some sort of Voyager-style Faraday cage system that activated when the engine started (I'm joking, but I'm only half joking).

If someone offered new car that had a few things that were considered "luxury" in 1994 but none of the electronic nonsense (and didn't need a bloke with a laptop to diagnose basic faults) I'd snap their hands off!

I’m with you regarding electronic handbrakes (which I hate), and digital dashboards which are largely pointless (one of our cars has one). In an ideal world you’d have a point in regard to Bluetooth connectivity as well, but in reality there’s no way (most) people would want to go without it. Their employers certainly wouldn’t want them to!

 

[Speed43125]

Possibly- some modern features would really appeal to me (parking sensors for example) but I question the necessity of some, particularly electronic handbrakes, digital dashboards, and especially nonsense like Bluetooth connectivity with mobile phones. I managed fine ten years ago putting my phone on Airplane mode whenever I was driving, so that I wasn't tempted to answer a call while driving. Even using modern Bluetooth based handsfree is still a distraction, I'd much rather pretend it's 1990 when it comes to driving and phones. Roads would be safer all round if all cars had some sort of Voyager-style Faraday cage system that activated when the engine started (I'm joking, but I'm only half joking).

If someone offered new car that had a few things that were considered "luxury" in 1994 but none of the electronic nonsense (and didn't need a bloke with a laptop to diagnose basic faults) I'd snap their hands off!

Personally, having driven the current Focus and 1 Series, both with an electronic handbrake, I think they're ok. They come off automatically as you lift the clutch up, but you can still manually turn them on and off. Certainly found them much better than those foot mounted handbrakes the original Nissan Leaf had.

 

[GusB]

When I think back to my first car, a mk1 Fiesta 1.1L, and compare it to what I'm currently driving, there is no way I'd go back to a "basics car". At the time, my Fiesta wasn't even the base model, but it lacked facilities that we would consider essential today - an intermittent wiper setting and an electric windscreen washer, for example; in the latter case, there was a manual pump just to the left of the clutch pedal (and on frosty mornings I could physically feel the crunch of the ice in the system)!

I currently drive a 2017 Vauxhall Meriva that's by no means top-of-the-range, but I've got central locking, cruise control, electric front windows, a CD player, Bluetooth connectivity and an electronic handbrake. I could probably do without all of those features, although I've become used to the handbrake and it really does make a difference.

It's like everything else in life - as technology improves it trickles down and features that were once only available on the top-level models make it down to the more basic models.

Would anyone really want to go back to using a manual choke?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Personally, having driven the current Focus and 1 Series, both with an electronic handbrake, I think they're ok. They come off automatically as you lift the clutch up, but you can still manually turn them on and off. Certainly found them much better than those foot mounted handbrake my father's original Nissan Leaf had.

Call me old fashioned, but there was nothing wrong with the mechanical levers that worked for decades. I can see how they'd be an advantage for hill starts, presumably they no longer bother teaching learners how to do clutch control. A foot mounted handbrake sounds awful (as well as self-contradictory), though presumably it would only be possible on an EV or an automatic?

I’m with you regarding electronic handbrakes (which I hate), and digital dashboards which are largely pointless (one of our cars has one). In an ideal world you’d have a point in regard to Bluetooth connectivity as well, but in reality there’s no way (most) people would want to go without it. Their employers certainly wouldn’t want them to!

I refuse to take calls from family and friends while they're driving, simply because those PSAs they used to play on the radio really hit me hard. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but it's just one of those things.

 

[Speed43125]

Call me old fashioned, but there was nothing wrong with the mechanical levers that worked for decades. I can see how they'd be an advantage for hill starts, presumably they no longer bother teaching learners how to do clutch control. A foot mounted handbrake sounds awful (as well as self-contradictory), though presumably it would only be possible on an EV or an automatic?

Actually no on that last one! The original Cadillac CTS had a foot mounted 'parking brake' and was also available with a manual. I think there's a couple of 90s American cars that had a clutch and handbrake for your left foot to use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Actually no on that last one! The original Cadillac CTS had a foot mounted 'parking brake' and was also available with a manual. I think there's a couple of 90s American cars that had a clutch and handbrake for your left foot to use.

When it comes to cars, the Americans are best regarded as a warning to others. Not only because of their preference for automatics, but for their hideous land-yachts which have the fuel economy of a Saturn V rocket, and are so ugly they make the Class 31 look like a work of art by comparison!

Every now and then they fluked and designed something beautiful entirely by accident (Galaxie 500, some generations of the Mustang and Corvette, the AMC Pacer) but for the most part their cars (like their diesel locomotives), all follow the same design language:- weird angles with all the aerodynamics of a 1960s multi-storey car park that's been dipped in treacle!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Call me old fashioned, but there was nothing wrong with the mechanical levers that worked for decades. I can see how they'd be an advantage for hill starts, presumably they no longer bother teaching learners how to do clutch control. A foot mounted handbrake sounds awful (as well as self-contradictory), though presumably it would only be possible on an EV or an automatic?


I refuse to take calls from family and friends while they're driving, simply because those PSAs they used to play on the radio really hit me hard. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but it's just one of those things.

Many companies these days do seem to have an "absolutely no phone use at the wheel, even hands free" policy, and it's certainly a very long time since I last recall hearing someone join a call from the car.

 

[Snow1964]

The list of really cheap cars in UK over last few decades were nearly all imports

Anyone remember:
Lada, Yugo, Proton, Diahatsu, Peruda, Daewoo, Datsun, FSO Polonez etc.

But if go back more than 50 years, before early 1970, virtually no one in UK would buy a foreign assembled car. We have just become used to foreign goods.

 

[pdq]

Lada, Yugo, Proton, Diahatsu, Peruda, Daewoo, Datsun, FSO Polonez etc.

Daihatsu and Datsun (Nissan) were 'mainstream', but the others were certainly low cost often using older platforms from other manufacturers as the basis of their models. The Europeans used Fiat and the Asians tended to old Mitsubishi cars. Daewoo sold the Mk2 Astra and Cavalier in lightly reskinned bodies. Skoda were also a budget offering but on their own vehicles which have quite a following these days if you can find one.

Kia started in this country as a budget brand, selling pretty uninspiring, old-tech cars. And, of course, Dacia is the most recent of these - they had been making a car based on the 1960-70s Renault 12 for years, ending in 2004. They are now mainstream but still using Renault platforms from a few years earlier.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I used to have a base spec Panda, it was very basic but it still had a CD player, electric front windows, none remote central locking and power steering. I then wanted to replace it with a mid spec Dacia Sandero which was very basic by modern standards but had everything my Panda had and air conditioning. However it didn't have a clutch rest and I thought that might start to annoy me.

I then started to look at the Skoda Fabia, I was about to order a base spec one before ordering the SE which had stuff like Android Auto and cruise control. As much as I love a basic car, even I was tempted by the toys.

Since I bought my Fabia the costs of cars have gone through the roof so I am going to keep this car until the none service stuff starts going wrong. If the old Dacia was on the market for £9k now, I might consider it but the new one is £15k and a Fabia starts at around £18.5k. I just cannot justify spending that sort of money on a car, so I think there is a market for a cheaper more basic car, but as others have pointed out it doesn't really save that much in manufacturing costs.

 

[Egg Centric]

The trick to play should you desire a RHD car of the basic spec that is only offered for sale on the continent, is to buy it Malta or Cyprus. You will of course have the subsequent problem of getting the car back home, so Malta would be the better option due to the much shorter journey through Italy and France. Getting a car home from Cyprus via Greece, the Balkans and much of Central Europe would be quite the task! Though the idea of getting a combination of trains and ferries down to Malta and driving back does sound like it would be a fun adventure.

I'm currently in the market for a (pre-owned) car which will be my first in 15 years. Having browsed Auto Trader a fair bit I've come to the conclusion that I may have to compromise on some of my "old school" preferences. For example I quite like the look of Renault Meganes from around 2008-2012 (not sure of the exact years that generation was available, but it's the one that came after those hideous ones whose main selling point was that it had a bum!) but all of these seem to have a digital speedometer- something that feels like something you get on 90s-era computer games, not real cars. I'd also consider a Vauxhall Astra or Insignia of a similar age but these have the same "feature".
Though if I was to end up with one of those, I'd probably get used to the digital speedo quite quickly. It just feels somewhat "alien" to me at the moment. Truth be told, I'm more sure of what I don't want than what I do!

I'm skeptical of this - I used to manage a guy from Cyprus, every time he'd come over for a meeting he'd buy a second hand car here and drive it all the way back to sell as a side hustle.

This may be though cause our second hand market here is more depreceat-y than the continent.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm skeptical of this - I used to manage a guy from Cyprus, every time he'd come over for a meeting he'd buy a second hand car here and drive it all the way back to sell as a side hustle.

This may be though cause our second hand market here is more depreceat-y than the continent.

Which bit are you "skeptical" of? That it's a longer journey from Cyprus than from Malta? Your former colleague presumably quite enjoyed doing it, and all power to him... but that doesn't magically shorten the distance between the two places.

 

[trebor79]

Really, if you want a basic car then Tesla Model 3 or Model Y fits the bill.
The "minimalist" interior and everything controlled on the touchscreen is because that's the cheapest way of doing it, nothing to do with being stylish. Don't bother with the "auto pilot" or "self driving" upgrades.

It is the definition of basic. Fake leather (ie polyurethane) upholstery, just the central screen for controls, no dials, buttons or switches. Put it in forward or reverse and press the pedal to go, lift off to stop, brake pedal for emergency use. Nothing simpler.

 

[urpert]

Really, if you want a basic car then Tesla Model 3 or Model Y fits the bill.
The "minimalist" interior and everything controlled on the touchscreen is because that's the cheapest way of doing it, nothing to do with being stylish. Don't bother with the "auto pilot" or "self driving" upgrades.

It is the definition of basic. Fake leather (ie polyurethane) upholstery, just the central screen for controls, no dials, buttons or switches. Put it in forward or reverse and press the pedal to go, lift off to stop, brake pedal for emergency use. Nothing simpler.

And the current 0% finance offer certainly helps with the man maths

 

[pdq]

I used to have a base spec Panda, it was very basic but it still had a CD player, electric front windows, none remote central locking and power steering.

I learned to drive in my parents' one-up-from-base spec Panda. It was a 1987 1000CL and was our family's first new car. Now that was basic! Luxuries included a heated rear window and rear wiper. I think it was the rear wiper which made it better than the base model (the 750L - obviously a bigger engine as well). Maybe the rear windows opened on the CL as well. The only optional extra we had fitted by the supplying dealer was an AM radio with 2 (yes 2) speakers. The decadence!

Our previous car had been a 1978 Renault 5 GTL. The GTL was almost the top of the range I believe: again having a heated rear window, rear wiper and not much else. I hate to think what the even lowlier models were like. Maybe illuminated heater controls and choke pull counted as GTL luxuries!

 

[Noddy]

Really, if you want a basic car then Tesla Model 3 or Model Y fits the bill.
The "minimalist" interior and everything controlled on the touchscreen is because that's the cheapest way of doing it, nothing to do with being stylish. Don't bother with the "auto pilot" or "self driving" upgrades.

It is the definition of basic. Fake leather (ie polyurethane) upholstery, just the central screen for controls, no dials, buttons or switches. Put it in forward or reverse and press the pedal to go, lift off to stop, brake pedal for emergency use. Nothing simpler.

I was going to suggest this too. If folk really want a back to basics car it really has to be electric because the internal combustion engine is the very definition of complex.

For example, if a small firm operating out of an industrial unit bought the rights to build say, a Vauxhall Cavalier mk2, and sold it as simple budget transport, I reckon some people would go for it. I know I would. I understand that modern safety and emissions regulations might be an issue, but they could probably find away around that, as long as they kept the business relatively small.

There are a number of firms doing similar with classic cars using new old stock to (re)build Morris Minors, Citroen 2CV (see: https://the2cvshop.co.uk/rebuilds/rebuilt-2cv-with-new-bodyshell-and-panels/) and the like. These are extremely simple cars but they are not what you would call cheap because if you keep the business small you don’t get the benefit of mass production. Effectively you are hand building cars even if you are using old parts.

I also think that there is a lot of rose tinted spectacles going on here. The reason that cars have developed the way they have is because that’s what consumers want. Larger, safer, more comfortable, more reliable is what the vast majority of folk want.

 

[341o2]

I'd like a back to basic car where all the mechanical bits which can wear out, break or fail to be easily accessible without having to dismantle half the car.
For example, the good old days with a water pump on front of the engine block. I had a Mercedes Vito van, which was quite good for its age (they can be real rust buckets), to replace the water pump neans dismantling most of the nearside, including the engine mount. supposed to take around three hours, as someone said who had done the job "You'll need every minute of it". Gave up and scrapped it.

 

[Egg Centric]

Which bit are you "skeptical" of? That it's a longer journey from Cyprus than from Malta? Your former colleague presumably quite enjoyed doing it, and all power to him... but that doesn't magically shorten the distance between the two places.

That it's a good idea to buy for a UK buyer to buy a car in Cyprus for financial reasons.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That it's a good idea to buy for a UK buyer to buy a car in Cyprus for financial reasons.

Your former colleague clearly thought it was*. Though my original mention of it was because of manufacturers not offering base models on the UK market, not necessarily because it would work out cheaper overall or to "flip" them once you got home.

Malta would probably be worth a look for someone wanting a "modern classic" that hasn't rotted away to rust, due to the warmer climate. Remember going there in the early 1990s on holiday and being surprised how many BL/Austin Rover vehicles were still on the roads there with no rust on them- including things like Morris Marinas which were notorious for rusting here in Britain.

*= I now realise your former colleague was doing it the other way around- which was probably a better move on the financial side.