First Class meal cost to produce

[GWVillager]

What would the cost of purchasing and cooking a typical first class meal be to the TOC? For example, a full English breakfast with LNER?

 

[Bishopstone]

They’re buying the ingredients in bulk, so I’d guess at a cost per plate of less than £1. Energy costs on a train? Minimal.

The big direct cost is a chef who’ll want a salary, training, sick pay, pension, travel privileges etc. But then the calculation gets harder, depending on how efficiently this resource is used across trains and meal services.

Then there are the waiting staff (first class hosts), and here the question to be asked is whether these staff would be employed anyway, were it not for the need to serve hot, plated food. If you‘d require the hosts in any event (eg, to serve hot drinks), then the marginal cost of having them run breakfasts from the kitchen to coach M is pretty much zero. If, on the other hand, you have extra people on payroll just to service hot, cooked meals at certain times of the day, then your cost base has increased unattractively.

You also have fixed costs in the form of (eg) building/leasing and maintaining on-board kitchens, and managing catering service centres, a portion of which should rightfully be applied to each meal.

In general, the more meals you serve, the lower the unit cost, because the only truly variable cost is the ingredients.

I don’t think the question is one to which anyone will be able to give you a simple number, without a great deal of inside knowledge and the divulgence of some commercially sensitive data.

 

[Russ_H]

What would the cost of purchasing and cooking a typical first class meal be to the TOC? For example, a full English breakfast with LNER?

I have a friend who has spent many years cooking in hotels and other venues. He says that the rule of thumb is to charge three and a half times the cost of ingredients: this covers the costs of heating, lighting, serving and so on, and also includes an element of profit.

His experience is limited to establishments which do not move along rails.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The cost of ingredients is probably around £1. The biggest cost, as with any business, is staff. This is the problem Wilko & Pizza Hut are facing, giving staff pay rises in the cost of living crises has proved unsustainable.
So the first class breakfast ingredients cost a negligible amount. But the cost of serving them is the reason some go down the microwave route, then a member of staff who would be there anyway can do it.

 

[GWVillager]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Seen as the cost is relatively low, but can draw a significant number of passengers, why do operators such as GWR provide very little catering despite employing the staff?

 

[DarloRich]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Seen as the cost is relatively low, but can draw a significant number of passengers, why do operators such as GWR provide very little catering despite employing the staff?

Because catering doesn't make any money in either first or second class. That, however is not the question you asked in the first place. You are trying to use data for one very particular situation to make a wider point about catering.

PS - i would also say no one is making train travel decisions based on catering!

 

[RT4038]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Seen as the cost is relatively low, but can draw a significant number of passengers, why do operators such as GWR provide very little catering despite employing the staff?

Are you thinking about all the staff (ordering, stock control, loading, disposal etc), or just the hosts? How many hosts with little catering vs. how many required with lots?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Seen as the cost is relatively low, but can draw a significant number of passengers, why do operators such as GWR provide very little catering despite employing the staff?

When I was first class on GWR they had one sole member of staff doing first class & standard class catering. If she had to cook breakfasts too then noone in standard would get any catering at all. It comes down again to cost of staff

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Seen as the cost is relatively low, but can draw a significant number of passengers, why do operators such as GWR provide very little catering despite employing the staff?

“The staff” doesn’t generally include a cook/chef (besides the very few Pullman services).

I also doubt that the prospect of a ‘full English’ actually entices many people these days, with changed dietary tastes over the years.

 

[transportphoto]

I also doubt that the prospect of a ‘full English’ actually entices many people these days, with changed dietary tastes over the years.

Mix with this an element of unreliability - I travelled on a service where the menu should have been a “Dine” full English… needless to say, it wasn’t on offer!

 

[Msq71423]

In a previous life I worked for some major restaurant chains. They all worked off the same rule of thumb, that is a quarter of each day's takings should cover the ingredients, a quarter staff wages, a quarter fixed costs and a quarter profit. Each restaurant branch would have these as a daily target/budget to work to every day.

 

[Carbean]

So this is why so many "popular" restaurants/pub chains are giving 20% off main meals, rhey still make a small profit ie 5% but of course the customer then buys drinks and tips their staff.

 

[Sleepy]

Because catering doesn't make any money in either first or second class. That, however is not the question you asked in the first place. You are trying to use data for one very particular situation to make a wider point about catering.

PS - i would also say no one is making train travel decisions based on catering!

I would disagree, whether to travel in 1st or Standard with LNER depending on the catering offered makes a big difference to me.

 

[Bishopstone]

“The staff” doesn’t generally include a cook/chef (besides the very few Pullman services).

I thought LNER (and Avanti?) employed chefs for the full breakfast trains? I guess the rest of the Dine menu on LNER is now pre-prepared and microwaved by hosts, though?

 

[Carlisle]

I thought LNER (and Avanti?) employed chefs for the full breakfast trains?

Yes they do .

 

[jfowkes]

I would imagine that there's a significant time and space factor on trains? You need to serve all meals in a timely manner (say within a 30 minute window?) so that no passenger gets their food too late. After a certain number of meals, you need more catering space (for both storage and prep) and/or more catering staff, neither of which is an attractive proposition for a TOC.

 

[HSTEd]

As mentioned above, the bulk of the cost will be due to the difficulties in efficiently operating a kitchen inside a train environment. Long narrow kitchen with limited power supplies, very limited storage space and comparatively expensive staff. As well as extremely "peaky" demand due to the limitations of having to order-cook-serve-eat all within the journey.

If we had a Breitspurbahn loading gauge and metro style operation with trains almost constantly in motion it would be different. But as it is, it is not really feasible to provide an efficient kitchen in the train.

 

[jfowkes]

If we had a Breitspurbahn loading gauge and metro style operation with trains almost constantly in motion it would be different. But as it is, it is not really feasible to provide an efficient kitchen in the train.

I always wondered if it were possible to cook meals at/near a station and simply transfer meals onto a train when it stops. It would probably mean forcing customers to order prior to departure in some cases, but would save a lot of on-board prep.

For example, you're travelling from Paddington to Exeter in the morning. You order a breakfast on the GWR app before departure (which of course knows your seat number). Meals are prepped and labelled at/near Reading station and delivered to the train when it calls. On-board staff just have to unbox, plate up and serve.

No idea if it would work in practise or not.

 

[Carlisle]

. But as it is, it is not really feasible to provide an efficient kitchen in the train.

Id thought at the time that early 90s McDonald’s coach in Germany & Switzerland would’ve turned out to be far more successful than it actually was.

 

[Tetchytyke]

An economy class airline meal costs about £3 to produce- including the logistics of getting it onto the aircraft, not just the ingredients- so I would expect a first class meal on a train to be similar. It’s certainly of a similar quality.

Long narrow kitchen with limited power supplies, very limited storage space and comparatively expensive staff

Airlines manage it perfectly well by preparing the food elsewhere, just re-heating on board in galleys much smaller than on trains.

There is a huge industry in these kitchens and the related supply chains and logistics. I know it would be harder for the railways to tap into these supply chains as they are focused on airports, but still.

Airlines don’t have the expense of staff (well they do, but the staff have to be there anyway) which helps.

 

[ALEMASTER]

An economy class airline meal costs about £3 to produce- including the logistics of getting it onto the aircraft, not just the ingredients- so I would expect a first class meal on a train to be similar. It’s certainly of a similar quality.



Airlines manage it perfectly well by preparing the food elsewhere, just re-heating on board in galleys much smaller than on trains.

There is a huge industry in these kitchens and the related supply chains and logistics. I know it would be harder for the railways to tap into these supply chains as they are focused on airports, but still.

Airlines don’t have the expense of staff (well they do, but the staff have to be there anyway) which helps.

That is exactly the business Rail Gourmet are in I would say - they supply train operators using bases at key stations. For some train operators they are the wholesalers and logisitic contractor that delivers packaged sandwiches, pre-prepared meals, fresh ingredients and other catering supplies as required to the train side whilst for other operators they provide catering trolleys loaded up at their base and in some cases the staff to go with them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Airlines don’t have the expense of staff (well they do, but the staff have to be there anyway) which hehelps.

And it's the staff that are the biggest cost. Airlines don't have that issue as the staff have to be there anyway, so the staffing cost is zero. Unless the train manager is going to rustle up a few bacon sandwiches between ticket checks it's not going to happen

 

[island]

And it's the staff that are the biggest cost. Airlines don't have that issue as the staff have to be there anyway, so the staffing cost is zero. Unless the train manager is going to rustle up a few bacon sandwiches between ticket checks it's not going to happen

The train manager helps with first-class food and drink service on EMR.

 

[GS250]

I'm amazed that the FGW Pullman dining has survived especially into the IET era. The fact you can't even have a genuine table for two is surely off putting for some. I honestly thought post Covid would be the perfect excuse to drop the catering. Keeping with the thread though I've always wondered whether this service generated any income? Maybe the fact that it's still being offered would suggest it's not a loss maker?

 

[RailWonderer]

“The staff” doesn’t generally include a cook/chef (besides the very few Pullman services).

I also doubt that the prospect of a ‘full English’ actually entices many people these days, with changed dietary tastes over the years.

A full English would sell me on first as long as it was an upgrade anyway! It may be fatty but it contains a lot of nutrients. If it was good quality I’m sure it would sell very well, long as the portions aren’t eating competition sized.

Yes they do .

Which LNER and Avanti services? I had a meal on an evening service into Euston a year ago (17:55 ex-Picc) but theirs and LNER’s timetable isn’t accurate when denoting which services have which catering. It’s been luck of the draw for me.

 

[Wychwood93]

I'm amazed that the FGW Pullman dining has survived especially into the IET era. The fact you can't even have a genuine table for two is surely off putting for some. I honestly thought post Covid would be the perfect excuse to drop the catering. Keeping with the thread though I've always wondered whether this service generated any income? Maybe the fact that it's still being offered would suggest it's not a loss maker?

I would doubt, all being considered, that it actually breaks even. A Tesco, or similar, would view it as a 'loss leader'. The idea of a 'chef' doing a breakfast makes me chuckle - all they might do is a normal bog standard breakfast, which is exactly what many of us do on a regular basis at home!

Edit: my home fry-up is a lot better than they could manage!

 

[Master29]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Seen as the cost is relatively low, but can draw a significant number of passengers, why do operators such as GWR provide very little catering despite employing the staff?

Indeed. A good point, especially for the longer services.

You are trying to use data for one very particular situation to make a wider point about catering.

Which is a problem how exactly?

PS - i would also say no one is making train travel decisions based on catering!

Probably not but it's still a valid point.

 

[Carlisle]

Which LNER and Avanti services? I

The ones that serve full breakfasts.

 

[Bishopstone]

I'm amazed that the FGW Pullman dining has survived especially into the IET era. The fact you can't even have a genuine table for two is surely off putting for some. I honestly thought post Covid would be the perfect excuse to drop the catering. Keeping with the thread though I've always wondered whether this service generated any income? Maybe the fact that it's still being offered would suggest it's not a loss maker?

Based purely on intuition, I’ve always assumed the GWR Pullman loses a very large amount of money if costed properly, but has miraculously survived because it is a totemic service; is used by lots of media and well-connected types on their way to their second homes; and because withdrawal would raise awkward questions about what was to become of the disused kitchens, when there isn’t a budget to convert the space to seating.

 

[route101]

The ones that serve full breakfasts.

I seen them loading the breakfasts to an LNER HST few years back. The breakfasts were all in containers which I guess the staff heat up.