Heritage railway financial problems.

[Titfield]

One HR I know of uses concrete sleepers, CWR, & has visits from tampers. They are also replacing expired wooden sleepers with concrete.
Safe track, with reduced maintenance needs, is more important than how 'heritage correct' it is.

Yes and that is a sensible development to improve the standard of the track and reduce costs.

 

[paul1609]

Ive been the part owner of a tamper for 10 years. My railway currently operates 3, we also have a ballast regulator. The whole 11 miles has been relaid at least once and on some sections twice in the 50 years of preservation recent "mainline" relays have been with flat-bottomed rail it's probably a third of our distance now.

 

[D6130]

One HR I know of uses concrete sleepers, CWR, & has visits from tampers. They are also replacing expired wooden sleepers with concrete.
Safe track, with reduced maintenance needs, is more important than how 'heritage correct' it is.

Several heritage lines that I have visited over the past few years have reached a sensible compromise on this. They have installed concrete-sleepered CWR - or long length jointed flat-bottom rail - on the plain line single track sections, where the visitors can't see what they are riding on....but have retained traditional wooden-sleepered jointed bull-head rail in station and depot areas, for that authentic heritage feel.

 

[John Luxton]

Today a rather interesting document was posted to the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway FB page which suggests things are not too well there in the financial department, having overspent on acquiring the acquisition of the Old Station House Inn (Blackmoor Gate Station). I saved a copy and it is attached.

 

[stuu]

That's a shame... although I know someone who volunteered for a number of years but gave up because the atmosphere/politics was terrible, so I can't say I'm altogether surprised

 

[Titfield]

That's a shame... although I know someone who volunteered for a number of years but gave up because the atmosphere/politics was terrible, so I can't say I'm altogether surprised

Being cynical I dont think there is a heritage railway in the UK that hasnt had some disgruntled volunteers claiming the atmosphere / politics was terrible.

There seems to be a mind set amongst volunteers that if it isnt done as they would have done it, then the person(s) doing it are terrible / inconsiderate / idiotic etc etc.

 

[D Williams]

Today a rather interesting document was posted to the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway FB page which suggests things are not too well there in the financial department, having overspent on acquiring the acquisition of the Old Station House Inn (Blackmoor Gate Station). I saved a copy and it is attached.

Sounds like a happy ship then. All pulling in the same direction. If ever there was an overhyped and hopeless scheme ( other than HS2) rebuilding the L & B is it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Being cynical I dont think there is a heritage railway in the UK that hasnt had some disgruntled volunteers claiming the atmosphere / politics was terrible.

There seems to be a mind set amongst volunteers that if it isnt done as they would have done it, then the person(s) doing it are terrible / inconsiderate / idiotic etc etc.

Is that really true, or just a sweeping generalisation based on anecdotal comments relating to maybe a handful of heritage operations?

 

[Calthrop]

That's a shame... although I know someone who volunteered for a number of years but gave up because the atmosphere/politics was terrible, so I can't say I'm altogether surprised

Being cynical I dont think there is a heritage railway in the UK that hasnt had some disgruntled volunteers claiming the atmosphere / politics was terrible.

There seems to be a mind set amongst volunteers that if it isnt done as they would have done it, then the person(s) doing it are terrible / inconsiderate / idiotic etc etc.

I tend to think that this kind of extreme disharmony is, just, "people" -- doubt whether its incidence among preserved railway volunteers, is markedly greater than in other departments of life. I recall a comment in a railway magazine a good many years ago, concerning fallings-out and folk bitterly opposed to each other, on rail-preservation scenes: the chap writing, observed that such stuff will inevitably come to pass in any undertaking carried on by humans -- with words to the effect of (rather charmingly, I thought), "it has been so, ever since Adam and Eve got the big E for scrumping".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that really true, or just a sweeping generalisation based on anecdotal comments relating to maybe a handful of heritage operations?

It's my experience in Scouting ("it's never the kids that are the problem") and other voluntary contexts I've experienced. I've always put a more positive slant on it, though - essentially the reason people get so emotional over voluntary organisations is that they're so invested in them - why would you give so much of your time for free if you weren't?

I suspect with rail preservation you can probably add in a degree of neurodivergence to make it all more challenging.

 

[John Luxton]

Sounds like a happy ship then. All pulling in the same direction. If ever there was an overhyped and hopeless scheme ( other than HS2) rebuilding the L & B is it.

I have visited the L&B on a regular basis since around 2009, though I have only been a member since 2020.

The wording on the document I picked up from Facebook suggests it was sent to all members on the membership list, however, I have not received a copy.

I am only an armchair member interested in what is going on and usually visiting one or twice a year.

It has been clear from FB comments and a recent irregularity in voting that it isn't a happy ship.

Seems a great shame.

Back in the 1980s the Welsh Highland was a in impossible dream and became a reality, I always believed that the L&B would eventually be another Welsh Highland.

What has been achieved at Woody Bay is amazing. However, one of the problems the railway has had to counter is hostile locals around Parracombe.

The WHR appeared to overcome the hostile locals problem, but it appears to be a major bugbear with the L&B.

 

[stuu]

I tend to think that this kind of extreme disharmony is, just, "people" -- doubt whether its incidence among preserved railway volunteers, is markedly greater than in other departments of life. I recall a comment in a railway magazine a good many years ago, concerning fallings-out and folk bitterly opposed to each other, on rail-preservation scenes: the chap writing, observed that such stuff will inevitably come to pass in any undertaking carried on by humans -- with words to the effect of (rather charmingly, I thought), "it has been so, ever since Adam and Eve got the big E for scrumping".

I suspect the voluntary aspect causes more issues than might be the case in a commercial organisation though. People are more likely to get their head down and get on with it if they are being paid (sweeping generalisation admittedly)

 

[Titfield]

I suspect the voluntary aspect causes more issues than might be the case in a commercial organisation though. People are more likely to get their head down and get on with it if they are being paid (sweeping generalisation admittedly)

Yes, partly because if you go around creating disharmony in a commercial organisation then at your annual review you will be taken to task for this which could eventually result in you leaving the organisation. Most employees soon realise that keeping their head down is the sensible approach.

Is that really true, or just a sweeping generalisation based on anecdotal comments relating to maybe a handful of heritage operations?

From my perspective and having been a regular on heritage rail forums and judging by what people post I would say that heritage railways seem to have more discord than most.

It's my experience in Scouting ("it's never the kids that are the problem") and other voluntary contexts I've experienced. I've always put a more positive slant on it, though - essentially the reason people get so emotional over voluntary organisations is that they're so invested in them - why would you give so much of your time for free if you weren't?

I suspect with rail preservation you can probably add in a degree of neurodivergence to make it all more challenging.

Two excellent observations.

 

[jumble]

It is interesting to look at how prices have increased on some railways
FFestiniog
2019 Victorian weekend Day ticket £30.00 ( valid on all service trains )
2023 Bygones £45.00 (which does not give access to service trains but does allow trip to Beddgelert on the Friday ) £

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is interesting to look at how prices have increased on some railways
FFestiniog
2019 Victorian weekend Day ticket £30.00
2023 Bygones £45.00 (which does not give access to service trains ) £

In the end costs have increased, so it's that or they go out of business.

 

[DarloRich]

It is interesting to look at how prices have increased on some railways
FFestiniog
2019 Victorian weekend Day ticket £30.00 ( valid on all service trains )
2023 Bygones £45.00 (which does not give access to service trains but does allow trip to Beddgelert on the Friday ) £

Out of interest: what should they charge? Do you suggest they should simply absorb the costs rises we have all faced in recent years. perhaps they should just stop running - considering the ire the Ffestiniog and WHR get here they may as well!

 

[Titfield]

In the end costs have increased, so it's that or they go out of business.

Absolutely, the challenge is whether or not they have increased the price beyond a tipping point such that they no longer get the total revenue they need.

For example if in
2022 you would get say 500 passengers prepared to pay £15 per person = £7500
2023 you only got say 400 passengers prepared to pay £18 per person = £7200

You are £300 worse off and do not have the benefit of the secondary spend of 100 passengers.

 

[bramling]

Out of interest: what should they charge? Do you suggest they should simply absorb the costs rises we have all faced in recent years. perhaps they should just stop running - considering the ire the Ffestiniog and WHR get here they may as well!

The problem with the FWRH is they have turned their operation entirely into one which is geared around the tourist market, pretty much akin to how the Snowdon railway operates.

What FWHR used to do pre-Covid through most of the summer at least was to attach one or two of their historic vehicles to one end of the train, which was enough to satisfy the enthusiast market - and perhaps more importantly was agreeable to many of their own members too. This practice has now been dropped, which I think may be partly because they now run a Pullman observation car on each end, so there needs to be through access through the whole train; I think it may also be the case that there are restrictions on what can be coupled to what.

The “Woodland Wonderer” service up to Tanybwlch and back is more traditional, but this means that if you want such a traditional experience then you won’t be able to cover the full length of the line, nor cover any of the Welsh Highland.

It is this change which (IMO) has completely ruined the FWHR. I don’t have an issue with the prices for their Victorian weekend, which to be fair still seems fairly reasonable to me.

 

[DarloRich]

The problem with the FWRH is they have turned their operation entirely into one which is geared around the tourist market, pretty much akin to how the Snowdon railway operates.

Suited me and my partner. She doesn't want to look at rusting pieces of crud in a grotty shed or talk to boring blokes like me about couplings or bearings or steam pressure. She wants a steam train, a nice trip with some nice scenery, some chuffing and peeping and a cider or cream tea. Bonus if there is something to look at when you reach the end of the line.

I know ( Honestly, I KNOW) that isn't what posters here want but that is the issue..............

which I think may be partly because they now run a Pullman observation car on each end, so there needs to be through access through the whole train;

For which they can charge a premium. I wouldn't pay for it personally but it was full on both runs when we travelled which suggests someone will. Dammed if they do. Dammed if they don't! if you are going to make money surely you have to sweat every penny.

It is this change which (IMO) has completely ruined the FWHR

I don't understand - can you expand? Surely you still have the same steam train ride in the same country.

I don’t have an issue with the prices for their Victorian weekend, which to be fair still seems fairly reasonable to me.

Agreed but people like to complain. If it was £10 there would be complaints!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely, the challenge is whether or not they have increased the price beyond a tipping point such that they no longer get the total revenue they need.

For example if in
2022 you would get say 500 passengers prepared to pay £15 per person = £7500
2023 you only got say 400 passengers prepared to pay £18 per person = £7200

You are £300 worse off and do not have the benefit of the secondary spend of 100 passengers.

Then you're stuck hoping that they'll recognise you're a charity and help you. As oblivion is the other outcome, unless there's scope to grow your market a bit, which for a preserved line is always going to be limited.

The problem with the FWRH is they have turned their operation entirely into one which is geared around the tourist market, pretty much akin to how the Snowdon railway operates.

Which they have correctly assessed to be the best way of making money in the face of rising costs.

I might not like it, you might not like it, but I accept it's why.

I similarly don't like £350 peak Euston-Manchester fares but they're for the same reason (though unlike preserved lines my view is that subsidy should be used to remove them).

I do think they should probably get someone to write a PHP script (other languages are available) to crawl the database of "railtours" to produce a traditional style PDF timetable including dates for those wanting that, but I totally understand how marketing the "railtours" is working far better for them.

 

[Titfield]

Then you're stuck hoping that they'll recognise you're a charity and help you. As oblivion is the other outcome, unless there's scope to grow your market a bit, which for a preserved line is always going to be limited.

My personal view is that each heritage railway has to take its own view on (1) cutting costs (2) increasing income and the extent to which it can manage one or both.

Many heritage railways state that a great deal of their costs are fixed and therefore focus on increasing revenue but in such a competitive market place for the leosure £ I think many could do more to cut costs. Costs have a habit of just increasing unless they are regularly reviewed and prompt action taken.

I also think that many do not focus enough on fund raising off railway by going to organisations large and small and individuals of reasonable net worth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many heritage railways state that a great deal of their costs are fixed and therefore focus on increasing revenue but in such a competitive market place for the leosure £ I think many could do more to cut costs. Costs have a habit of just increasing unless they are regularly reviewed and prompt action taken.

Some also take what appear to be odd decisions. One I've noticed is that you can no longer walk through between the cafe and shop at the Talyllyn. The effect of this will surely be that people going to the cafe are less likely to make impulse purchases. It appears to have been done so the queue works better, but I suspect it'll lose them shop sales.

 

[Titfield]

Some also take what appear to be odd decisions. One I've noticed is that you can no longer walk through between the cafe and shop at the Talyllyn. The effect of this will surely be that people going to the cafe are less likely to make impulse purchases. It appears to have been done so the queue works better, but I suspect it'll lose them shop sales.

That is unusual I have to say. Many heritage attractions have realised the benefit (financial) of steering visitors through shops and cafe to get "impulse" sales.

 

[Sheldonian]

All very simple.
If we want out hobby to continue, railways have to make money to pay the bills.
Comercial decisions have to be made about pricing and what experience can be offered and for which audience. Not every decision is going to suit everybody.
However, facts remain, if they run out of money... they will cease to be and we will all be losers

 

[bramling]

Suited me and my partner. She doesn't want to look at rusting pieces of crud in a grotty shed or talk to boring blokes like me about couplings or bearings or steam pressure. She wants a steam train, a nice trip with some nice scenery, some chuffing and peeping and a cider or cream tea. Bonus if there is something to look at when you reach the end of the line.

I know ( Honestly, I KNOW) that isn't what posters here want but that is the issue..............


For which they can charge a premium. I wouldn't pay for it personally but it was full on both runs when we travelled which suggests someone will. Dammed if they do. Dammed if they don't! if you are going to make money surely you have to sweat every penny.


I don't understand - can you expand? Surely you still have the same steam train ride in the same country.

I’m probably a bit biased as I prefer old carriages - the more modern ones used by the FWHR just don’t do much for me, I find them extremely bland. Add in the prospect of finding the train very full and it just doesn’t appeal.

Certainly it seems generally accepted that many people find the entire WHR journey excessively long, perhaps even boring, despite the superb scenery. Trip adviser seems to show at least a hint of this directed towards the FR as well. When we were in Porthmadog earlier this year, it was interesting hearing some conversations in the B&B breakfast room, which were essentially saying the same - people seemed to find both railways slightly disappointing, especially in relation to the cost.

I guess this summarises that FWHR are very heavily going for the coach tour / mature couples market. Families seem to be just about - grudgingly - catered for with the Tanybwlch shuttles, and for anyone else it’s a case of come for the Bygones weekend and that’s your lot.

I’d be content if they just managed to extend one of the daily Woodland Wonderer services up to Blaenau Ffestiniog, even just once or twice a week.

Agreed but people like to complain. If it was £10 there would be complaints!

I’m sure the bygones weekend will be busy. I’m planning to be there for all three days.

 

[Djgr]

I suspect with rail preservation you can probably add in a degree of neurodivergence to make it all more challenging.

Certainly if this forum is anything to go by!!

The problem with the FWRH is they have turned their operation entirely into one which is geared around the tourist market, pretty much akin to how the Snowdon railway operates.

What FWHR used to do pre-Covid through most of the summer at least was to attach one or two of their historic vehicles to one end of the train, which was enough to satisfy the enthusiast market - and perhaps more importantly was agreeable to many of their own members too. This practice has now been dropped, which I think may be partly because they now run a Pullman observation car on each end, so there needs to be through access through the whole train; I think it may also be the case that there are restrictions on what can be coupled to what.

The “Woodland Wonderer” service up to Tanybwlch and back is more traditional, but this means that if you want such a traditional experience then you won’t be able to cover the full length of the line, nor cover any of the Welsh Highland.

It is this change which (IMO) has completely ruined the FWHR. I don’t have an issue with the prices for their Victorian weekend, which to be fair still seems fairly reasonable to me.

I don't like the repositioning into "experience".

I was at the North Yorkshire Moors Railway last weekend, who seem to be doing very good business, whilst maintaining the essence of a railway that offers a meaningful timetable catering for multiple types of journey needs.

 

[paul1609]

Absolutely, the challenge is whether or not they have increased the price beyond a tipping point such that they no longer get the total revenue they need.

For example if in
2022 you would get say 500 passengers prepared to pay £15 per person = £7500
2023 you only got say 400 passengers prepared to pay £18 per person = £7200

You are £300 worse off and do not have the benefit of the secondary spend of 100 passengers.

It's more complicated than that if you've shaved £1000 off your costs by not running the trains that the extra 100 passengers would have travelled on. As regards secondary spend on casual customers the retail margin has been destroyed by the amazon effect, the catering margin has been destroyed by increases in the minimum wage other employment costs and regulation. You are now far better off concentrating your efforts on pre-paid added value products which is what the FWHR and others have done.

 

[matt]

.

I’d be content if they just managed to extend one of the daily Woodland Wonderer services up to Blaenau Ffestiniog, even just once or twice a week.

They do, there is one or two trips a day that do the full line

 

[bramling]

It's more complicated than that if you've shaved £1000 off your costs by not running the trains that the extra 100 passengers would have travelled on. As regards secondary spend on casual customers the retail margin has been destroyed by the amazon effect, the catering margin has been destroyed by increases in the minimum wage other employment costs and regulation. You are now far better off concentrating your efforts on pre-paid added value products which is what the FWHR and others have done.

As regards retail, some heritage railways really don’t help themselves in this regard. It’s very common to find books in particular are in a pretty poor state, either damaged from handling or dampness. And it is quite a common experience to have to queue for ages whilst staff are fussing around over something unrelated. I’m not going to name specific railways on this apart from that FWHR is one.

This being the case, it’s no wonder Amazon has an advantage.

They do, there is one or two trips a day that do the full line

Not with the option of heritage stock though. Only the Tanybwlch services are booked for this. Pre-Covid this wasn’t quite the case.

 

[paul1609]

As regards retail, some heritage railways really don’t help themselves in this regard. It’s very common to find books in particular are in a pretty poor state, either damaged from handling or dampness. And it is quite a common experience to have to queue for ages whilst staff are fussing around over something unrelated. I’m not going to name specific railways on this apart from that FWHR is one.

This being the case, it’s no wonder Amazon has an advantage.

On my railway the reason that some of the stock is in a poor condition is that some enthusiasts are using the shop as an Amazon showroom and literally thumbing through every page before replacing the book and purchasing online. I've personally experienced this with someone blocking the shop for 30 minutes and then having the neck to tell me its cheaper on Amazon The publishers are discounting the books on Amazon so it's cheaper to buy there on the first day of release than the railways can buy trade. Needless to say we are very selective with what we sell now!