Could Class 43s haul carriages other than mk3s?

[m79900]

If a heritage railway wanted to run a HST, but didn’t have the space for a rake of mk3s, could mk1/2 carriages be formed between them?

 

[43096]

If a heritage railway wanted to run a HST, but didn’t have the space for a rake of mk3s, could mk1/2 carriages be formed between them?

Yes, but there would be no heating and the rear power car wouldn’t be powering. An HST power car can couple to any coach provided it has buckeye couplers and is air braked.

 

[renegademaster]

If a heritage railway wanted to run a HST, but didn’t have the space for a rake of mk3s, could mk1/2 carriages be formed between them?

They haul freight so I don't see why not. You might need a generator car for the carriages but heritage trains usually do

 

[sprinterguy]

From a mechanical perspective, yes they could, as witnessed by the Colas operated test trains of recent times.

They wouldn't be able to provide auxiliary power to the carriages though.

They haul freight so I don't see why not. You might need a generator car for the carriages but heritage trains usually do

That's using a pair of buffer fitted power cars as essentially a conventional locomotive, though, rather than forming up a train between separate power cars.

 

[JonathanH]

They can't provide braking to vacuum braked stock without some sort of translation.

 

[GC class B1]

HST power cars can couple to buckeye fitted vehicles. All Mk1 and Mk2 vehicles have buckeye couplers. A single HST power car can operate the brakes on air braked vehicles but to operate in pairs with the coaches between the two power cars requires the coaches to be fitted with 36 way control cables to control the trailing power car.

 

[43096]

They can't provide braking to vacuum braked stock without some sort of translation.

And the only translator you could use would be a dual-braked 73 as they have buckeye couplers.

 

[randyrippley]

And the only translator you could use would be a dual-braked 73 as they have buckeye couplers.

I read somewhere years ago that only a 73/0 can act as a air/vacuum brake translator, not a 73/1

 

[JonathanH]

I read somewhere years ago that only a 73/0 can act as a air/vacuum brake translator, not a 73/1

73119 and 73136 in GBRf's fleet are dual braked and can act as translators. The other GBRf 73s only have air brakes enabled.

 

[43096]

I read somewhere years ago that only a 73/0 can act as a air/vacuum brake translator, not a 73/1

That’s not the case, a 73/1 is just as good. Are you thinking of the ability to heat on diesel?

Thinking about what I said about a 73, would a 33/1 be able to brake translate as they have buckeyes too. And going hypothetical, would a 74 have worked?

 

[JohnElliott]

And the only translator you could use would be a dual-braked 73 as they have buckeye couplers.

Or an MLV, I'd have thought (at least the early ones).

 

[43096]

Or an MLV, I'd have thought (at least the early ones).

Oooooooh. Good shout. Until the batteries run out, at least.

 

[randyrippley]

That’s not the case, a 73/1 is just as good. Are you thinking of the ability to heat on diesel?

Thinking about what I said about a 73, would a 33/1 be able to brake translate as they have buckeyes too. And going hypothetical, would a 74 have worked?

No, the article was quite specific: it said that only the 73/0 could work as an air/vacuum translator. Made no comment about air or vacuum / EPB, though that presumably works with the bagpipes
It was discussing the machines "as built", obviously later mods may have changed things

 

[GC class B1]

Or an MLV, I'd have thought (at least the early ones).

I am surprised at this suggestion. I thought MLV were ep braked with auto air for failsafe operation in an emergency.

 

[43096]

I am surprised at this suggestion. I thought MLV were ep braked with auto air for failsafe operation in an emergency.

MLVs had vacuum brakes to allow them to haul parcels stock (BG, GUV etc).

 

[JKF]

HST power cars can couple to buckeye fitted vehicles. All Mk1 and Mk2 vehicles have buckeye couplers. A single HST power car can operate the brakes on air braked vehicles but to operate in pairs with the coaches between the two power cars requires the coaches to be fitted with 36 way control cables to control the trailing power car.

I expect for a certain type of enthusiast, having a dead power car on the rear for extra weight would be quite desirable.

 

[43096]

I expect for a certain type of enthusiast, having a dead power car on the rear for extra weight would be quite desirable.

The preserved set at the Midland Railway Butterley has been operated in such a fashion, with use of the power cut out switch on one power car.

It doesn’t have to be a dead power car on the back, either. 41001 was run at the Mid-Norfolk with two idling Class 50s on the back. Now that was very enjoyable!

 

[GC class B1]

I expect for a certain type of enthusiast, having a dead power car on the rear for extra weight would be quite desirable.

I don’t think the power car would be shut down as it may not be possible to release the brakes without the engine running. The trailing power car would be idling and not taking power. The E70 type brake wouldn’t operate as designed either but the trailing power car brakes would operate as a normal air braked vehicle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think the power car would be shut down as it may not be possible to release the brakes without the engine running. The trailing power car would be idling and not taking power. The E70 type brake wouldn’t operate as designed either but the trailing power car brakes would operate as a normal air braked vehicle.

HSTs can operate with a power car entirely dead (other than batteries). It happened on the Great Western quite a lot, with resulting delays over the bank into Plymouth.

 

[43096]

I don’t think the power car would be shut down as it may not be possible to release the brakes without the engine running. The trailing power car would be idling and not taking power. The E70 type brake wouldn’t operate as designed either but the trailing power car brakes would operate as a normal air braked vehicle.

How do you think dead power cars are hauled then? How do you think a set with a power car with a failed engine keeps going?

 

[GC class B1]

HSTs can operate with a power car entirely dead (other than batteries). It happened on the Great Western quite a lot, with resulting delays over the bank into Plymouth.

I am referring to the situation where the trailing power car doesn’t have a control signal because the intermediate vehicles are not fitted with 36 way control cables. An HST set will have a control signal to the rear power car which will energise the rear power car E70 brake controller and allow the brakes to be released. This will not be the case with non 36 way cable fitted intermediate vehicles.

 

[36270k]

In the BR era ( 1970/80 ) HST's running on 1 power car were common when the Paxman engines had overheating problems. Was on several where it was a slow climb up from Stroud to Sapperton summit.

 

[D365]

I am referring to the situation where the trailing power car doesn’t have a control signal because the intermediate vehicles are not fitted with 36 way control cables. An HST set will have a control signal to the rear power car which will energise the rear power car E70 brake controller and allow the brakes to be released. This will not be the case with non 36 way cable fitted intermediate vehicles.

If I've interpreted the electrical schematics correctly... this is a function of the 'Isolate' input of the E70 BCU (brake control unit)?

 

[GC class B1]

If I've interpreted the electrical schematics correctly... this is a function of the 'Isolate' input of the E70 BCU (brake control unit)?

That sounds right. Does the trailing power car E70 BCU still vent the brake pipe when an Emergency brake is initiated in this situation?

How do you think dead power cars are hauled then? How do you think a set with a power car with a failed engine keeps going?

Please refer to my post number 21 and @D365 post number 23 for the explanation of a failed power car in an HST set. I don’t know how a dead single power car is hauled but there may be an AFT (assisting failed train) air cock to operate to allow the brake pipe to be charged or some method of isolating the applicable brake pipe venting valve. These should only be operated in the instance of a failed train and not in passenger service.

 

[43096]

Please refer to my post number 21 and @D365 post number 23 for the explanation of a failed power car in an HST set. I don’t know how a dead single power car is hauled but there may be an AFT (assisting failed train) air cock to operate to allow the brake pipe to be charged or some method of isolating the applicable brake pipe venting valve. These should only be operated in the instance of a failed train and not in passenger service.

You are presumably unaware that trains have operated in passenger service for many years with one of the E70 (or same functionality DW2 and DW3) BPCUs isolated?

The E70/DW2/DW3 are not just used on HST power cars, but also at least (IIRC) Class 56, Class 90 and Class 91 locomotives and Mark 3 and Mark 4 DVTs. Two BPCUs are only needed for speeds over 110mph, so on West Coast and Anglia Class 90+DVT formations normally had the rear BPCU isolated for reliability reasons. If the TDM de-configured then the rear BPCU would lose its signal and so initiate a brake application.

BPCU - Brakepipe Pressure Control Unit

 

[Irascible]

Does someone have a schematic of the brakes to hand? I did but don't currently. Does the PC not ( effectively ) monitor the control brake pipe pressure as well as EP signal?

 

[Nym]

HST power cars can couple to buckeye fitted vehicles. All Mk1 and Mk2 vehicles have buckeye couplers. A single HST power car can operate the brakes on air braked vehicles but to operate in pairs with the coaches between the two power cars requires the coaches to be fitted with 36 way control cables to control the trailing power car.

Except on the Colas ones which have been converted to be compatible with the 27 way through wiring on the Network Rail Infrastructure Monitoring fleet.

If I've interpreted the electrical schematics correctly... this is a function of the 'Isolate' input of the E70 BCU (brake control unit)?

The E70 is power to release, so you'd also be pneumatically isolating it with the BCU Isolation Cock. You're then procedurally limited to a lower speed which seems to be whatever the flavour of the month is.

Similar situation on the Mk.4s at full length.

I am referring to the situation where the trailing power car doesn’t have a control signal because the intermediate vehicles are not fitted with 36 way control cables. An HST set will have a control signal to the rear power car which will energise the rear power car E70 brake controller and allow the brakes to be released. This will not be the case with non 36 way cable fitted intermediate vehicles.

Or just isolate the E70 and run as "AFT" Assisting Failed Train.

 

[DelW]

If a heritage railway wanted to run a HST, but didn’t have the space for a rake of mk3s, could mk1/2 carriages be formed between them?

Just a passing mention that the West Somerset is operating an HST in passenger service today (although not using mk1 or mk2 coaches).

HST Running Days

The West Somerset Railway have agreed to store two “Castle Class” high speed trains on the line starting on the 11th September, for Great Western. High speed trains are being withdrawn on the mainline network this autumn, and this has led to short term storage problems on the Great Western.…

www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk

Great Western have agreed that the WSR will be able to run one of the trains on the 23rd and 24th September, in normal WSR passenger service.

On both days the train will make two return runs from Minehead to Bishops Lydeard. The “yellow” time table will be in operation, which means that the HST will leave Minehead at 1000 and 1430, and Bishops Lydeard at 1230 and 1635.

 

[43096]

Except on the Colas ones which have been converted to be compatible with the 27 way through wiring on the Network Rail Infrastructure Monitoring fleet.

As the Colas power cars see use on the NMT, it is unlikely the power cars have been modified. More likely is the jumper cable adapts between the HST 36-way and the 27-way on the stock. There’s plenty of spare wires in the 36-way; it’s a case of mapping the wires across.