German Rail in decline ?

[Austriantrain]

There are benefits and drawbacks to Germany's shape and population distribution. On the one hand, it makes it very difficult to build new high-speed mainlines between one very large city and a series of medium-sized cities, in the French or Spanish way.

On the other hand, it makes it much easier to get good loadings and justify investment right across the country, as intercity flows are much less strongly directional and involve lots of travel between all places along a given line.

Germany also benefits from a large number of decent-quality intercity railway lines, often providing several alternative routes between major city pairs. Unfortunately, this has also given the railway an excuse to invest little into new lines, whilst trying to fit an increasing amount of both intercity, freight, and regional services on to inadequate double track mixed-traffic lines. For example, going from the Ruhr towards Hamburg or Berlin you have two route choices - via Osnabruck or via Hamm/Bielefeld/Minden. But both of these have long double-track sections with each a 2-4tph regional service, 1tph semi-fast, 2-3tph fast + plenty of freight.

There is now beginning to be some thought of whether a new pair of tracks along one of these routes (probably the latter) might conceivably be a good idea - but this is at least 10-15 years away. Same situation for Frankfurt-Mannheim/Heidelberg. And even then, they will almost inevitably insist on running some 200kph 'regional' services over these high speed lines, in addition possibly to some freight!

Effectively, the German strategy of mixing fast/regional/freight traffic on virtually all lines derives from their geography and is partly inevitable, but the German ideological insistence on it is fundamentally incompatible with the intensive service that is now run in the country. Every single other major country in Europe (including GB) seems to understand this, just not Germany.

I am not so sure that the issue is „understanding“. I rather think the reasons lie in the federal and very decentralized German political system, thus the need to gather local support - getting freight off classic lines at night, reducing noise (even though the reality is then mostly different); serving regional stations so that the local population not only suffers the „cost“ of building new lines, but also profit…

France and the UK OTOH are extremely centralized political systems, making „riding roughshod“ over local opposition much easier.

I do agree that the results are suboptimal (having gradients suitable for freight will increase construction costs and the wear and tear the freights cause will increase maintenance costs; adding regional stations will strongly reduce capacity).

Another example is the northern approaches to the Brenner Base Tunnel: logically, the only decent approach would be to route freights as far away from Munich as possible. Munich is massively congested and every capacity increase there is bound to cost much, much more than in more rural areas. However, those rural areas are very well-off and very important electorally for the Bavarian CSU. So it’s a „njet“ from Bavaria, and that’s it. No German federal government, even though it does not currently include the CDU, can go over the head of the regional government.

But: it is very unrealistic to suppose the political system will change. So better to get on with it. The simple fact remains that Germany has invested much too little in infrastructure in general and rail in particular in the last twenty years in a misguided philosophy to reduce expenditure at all costs (while interest rates were low and would have made building new rather a good investment) and now they will have to bear the costs of those false economies.

 

[williamn]

The Munich Philharmonic have posted an open letter of complaint to DB about their experiences:

https://slippedisc.com/2023/09/munich-philharmonic-lashes-out-at-hopeless-german-rail/

“Dear Deutsche Bahn Personenverkehr: we absolutely want to protect our climate! We were happy to rely on you, trusting you. Despite repeated negative experiences, we have defended and protected you, time and again. Yet you stab us in the back, you fail us. We can’t count on you. We can’t take it any more.”

 

[30907]

The Munich Philharmonic have posted an open letter of complaint to DB about their experiences:

https://slippedisc.com/2023/09/munich-philharmonic-lashes-out-at-hopeless-german-rail/

“Dear Deutsche Bahn Personenverkehr: we absolutely want to protect our climate! We were happy to rely on you, trusting you. Despite repeated negative experiences, we have defended and protected you, time and again. Yet you stab us in the back, you fail us. We can’t count on you. We can’t take it any more.”

There was apparently major disruption in the Koeln area on the day of their travelling week - leading to a 4.5hr delay. No idea of the cause, but it can't have helped that the Duesseldorf route is closed for engineering works.

 

[duesselmartin]

Disruption was weather related however the Munich Philharmoniker letter goes beyond that.

 

[Peter Wilde]

From our most recent family-visiting trip to Germany , I really don't understand Deutsche Bahn policies!

Our ICE from Berlin to Mannheim was (unusually) almost on time - no more than 10 min late at any stop. However boarding and travelling on the train became a stressful shambles.

We had booked first class seats. An hour before travel, we got a DB email informing that the coach number and seat numbers for our reservation had been changed.

On boarding the new Wagen, there was a scrum of pushing passengers. We held back a bit, in the belief we had reserved seats. However on reaching them we found them (and all the others) occupied; and the people in our seats refused to move. The general opinion in the carriage seemed to be that DB rolling stock changes invalidated all reservations, meaning it was now first come, first served. No member of staff was anywhere within reach to query this.

We were lucky eventually to find two seats free in the buffet car, though this meant a noisy four hours on uncomfortable bench seats instead of the relaxed first class quiet we had paid for. Of course we have put in a complaint, which ought to produce some money back; but experiences like this don't encourage people to take trains!

We also used local trains in the Mannheim - Heidelberg region. These provided a fast and useful service, but had cancellations and were crowded. Information on station displays tends to be poor, with potentially misleading features like a train being shown on the display board on its usual platform at Mannheim Hbf with a scrolling line of much smaller text saying something like "abfahrt heute von gleis XX"; we nearly missed a train for this reason, staying on the wrong platform, despite my wife's fluent German. The small station at Ladenburg has displays which only show a single line of moving text - quite inadequate when the service has two or three different trains due from the same platform within a few minutes, one or more of which are late, cancelled or re-routed with stops omitted.

The ICE service is really rather puzzling. DB has bought a lot of ICE train sets capable of very fast running, but these spend a lot of time dawdling at 150 kph or less; and station stops often seem so long that any faster running is negated. And there are a lot of variations within the fleet, meaning that rolling stock substitutions tend to mess up all the seat reservations.

 

[Redonian]

On Monday a colleague and myself had reserved seats on IC 142 Berlin to Amsterdam, 14:34 ex Berlin. We arrived on the platform to find that the train was not on the board. A member of platform staff said that the train had left early! We went quickly to the information desk and asked for an explanation from a weary looking individual who said nothing to us, pressed his computer screen which printed out a piece of paper. He then said "this is your connection". No explanation , no apology. DB had my e mail address but had not notified me of the change which, I guess, was due to engineering work. The connection was an ICE to Hannover leaving in a few minutes which surprisingly arrived there before IC 142 despite leaving an hour later. Fortunately it was a double ICE and we were able to find seats. It was clear that a lot of other passengers for IC 142 were on the ICE.
At Hannover there was total chaos when IC 142 arrived as a number of the coaches had no numbers on. Fortunately we had reservations in coach 9 which did have a number on. We found a young woman with a huge suitcase occupying our seats. She had a reservation in coach 5 and inevitably her suitcase blocked the gangway whilst she tried to move with passengers trying to climb over it. Other passengers also found people occupying their reserved seats.
There was no explanation or apology from the train manager either.
All in all a pretty dreadful experience.

 

[43096]

From our most recent family-visiting trip to Germany , I really don't understand Deutsche Bahn policies!

Our ICE from Berlin to Mannheim was (unusually) almost on time - no more than 10 min late at any stop. However boarding and travelling on the train became a stressful shambles.

We had booked first class seats. An hour before travel, we got a DB email informing that the coach number and seat numbers for our reservation had been changed.

On boarding the new Wagen, there was a scrum of pushing passengers. We held back a bit, in the belief we had reserved seats. However on reaching them we found them (and all the others) occupied; and the people in our seats refused to move. The general opinion in the carriage seemed to be that DB rolling stock changes invalidated all reservations, meaning it was now first come, first served. No member of staff was anywhere within reach to query this.

We were lucky eventually to find two seats free in the buffet car, though this meant a noisy four hours on uncomfortable bench seats instead of the relaxed first class quiet we had paid for. Of course we have put in a complaint, which ought to produce some money back; but experiences like this don't encourage people to take trains!

One of the things to watch for is the train number changing - this is a way they can use to remove the reservations. As an example, I was travelling from Hamburg to Berlin back in July. The train was booked as ICE507 0817 Hamburg-München via Berlin. That was shown on the departure boards as 'Ausfall' (cancelled) but there was an ICE2937 0817 Hamburg-München via Berlin with the note "Ersatzzug für ICE507" ("Replacement train for ICE507") showing instead. The reason was because the train was formed of an ICE1 set - so the reservations wouldn't match with the diagrammed ICE4. It was a result for me as I didn't have a reservation (bagged a compartment, too) and it was a pair of rateable ICE1 power cars providing traction rather than the newer plastic.

It's one of those things where a little knowledge can help a lot.

 

[williamn]

The ICE service is really rather puzzling. DB has bought a lot of ICE train sets capable of very fast running, but these spend a lot of time dawdling at 150 kph or less; and station stops often seem so long that any faster running is negated. And there are a lot of variations within the fleet, meaning that rolling stock substitutions tend to mess up all the seat reservations.

I'll post a proper report on my DB and OBB experiences shortly but just wanted to concur with the above - station dwell times seem to be incredibly long, with no urgency to dispatch the increasingly delayed trains I rode on.

Also the problem of passengers selfishly taking up seats with their luggage seems even worse in Germany and Austria than in the UK, and is more puzzling given the generous luggage storage available on ICE trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'll post a proper report on my DB and OBB experiences shortly but just wanted to concur with the above - station dwell times seem to be incredibly long, with no urgency to dispatch the increasingly delayed trains I rode on.

Agreed. I've always noticed that. Combined with basically zero recovery time built into the timetables either.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The ICE service is really rather puzzling. DB has bought a lot of ICE train sets capable of very fast running, but these spend a lot of time dawdling at 150 kph or less; and station stops often seem so long that any faster running is negated. And there are a lot of variations within the fleet, meaning that rolling stock substitutions tend to mess up all the seat reservations.

Not really. The latest generation of ICE trains has a top speed of between 230 km/h and 265 km/h depending on configuration, whereas the first generation from 1988 had a top speed of 280km/h, Only a tiny minority of the fleet is capable of 330km/h.

Britain is very unusual in running trains at above 160 km/h with lineside signals and no continuous speed monitoring(except in in the GW ATP area) In Germany this is considered unacceptably dangerous, however only a minority of lines are fitted with continuous cab signalling equipment - so 160km/h is the best that can be expected on any line not specifically upgraded.

The DB ICE fleet is over 300 sets and more than 2500 carriages, a number of which have special attributes such as tilt equipment, high speed capability, and multi voltage capability for switzerland, france, belgium, netherlands etc.
Would you prefer that all trains where the originalally planned train type is not available are just cancelled?

 

[haltendehand]

I'll post a proper report on my DB and OBB experiences shortly but just wanted to concur with the above - station dwell times seem to be incredibly long, with no urgency to dispatch the increasingly delayed trains I rode on.

Many of the operating practices do seem incredibly lax compared with GB these days - 2-3 minute station dwell times at minor halts combined with very leisurely dispatching and a total lack of concern about 1-2 minute delays accruing for no real reason. Literally almost everything (including RBs on virtually traffic-free minor regional routes) seems to run with at least +1/+2 (i.e. trains arrive at intermediate stations at their scheduled departure time) because of this. These are not noted anywhere as 'delays' - as far as I know, DB don't actually publish or record anything short of T-5.

Also the problem of passengers selfishly taking up seats with their luggage seems even worse in Germany and Austria than in the UK, and is more puzzling given the generous luggage storage available on ICE trains.

Generally, behaviour seems to have declined massively post-Covid. On one recent trip, the guard had to make an announcement on a very crowded ICE to tell people to take their luggage and their feet (many without shoes, some without socks!) off the seats next to them as the train was full. Feet on seats are a problem in GB, but the German penchant for going barefoot whenever possible does make it rather worse.

This is in addition to witnessing, on two journeys, people making calls in a full quiet coach without being challenged. Again very difficult to imagine this happening pre-Covid without a... robust challenge from at least one fellow passenger.

 

[Austriantrain]

Combined with basically zero recovery time built into the timetables either.

At least for Austria, that’s not true. Recovery time is built in in the timetabling parameters.

 

[43096]

Not really. The latest generation of ICE trains has a top speed of between 230 km/h and 265 km/h depending on configuration, whereas the first generation from 1988 had a top speed of 280km/h, Only a tiny minority of the fleet is capable of 330km/h.

Technically the latest generation of ICE unit is the ICE3neo fleet, which are 320km/h.

 

[Krokodil]

If British Rail never done it's big rationalisations we'd be in the same situation

Rationalisations like stripping out sections of four-tracking or singling lines? That certainly hasn't helped redundancy.

 

[AdamWW]

Many of the operating practices do seem incredibly lax compared with GB these days - 2-3 minute station dwell times at minor halts combined with very leisurely dispatching and a total lack of concern about 1-2 minute delays accruing for no real reason. Literally almost everything (including RBs on virtually traffic-free minor regional routes) seems to run with at least +1/+2 (i.e. trains arrive at intermediate stations at their scheduled departure time) because of this. These are not noted anywhere as 'delays' - as far as I know, DB don't actually publish or record anything short of T-5.

The last journey I did across Germany (ICE, on conventional lines) for much of the journey they seemed to change guards at each station, which didn't seem to be a terribly efficient way of doing things.

I find the real time information on their web site somewhat less useful than we get in the UK too, but maybe that's just because I'm not used to it.

 

[duesselmartin]

Changing guards at each station is certainly not the usual. Normally you have the same guard for 3 hours or so.

As to luggage on seats, yes that is a post pandemic problem. We never had a proper lock down here and people created distance with their luggage.
My daily experience is that with a polite "excuse me" 99% will shift their luggage.

 

[williamn]

Changing guards at each station is certainly not the usual. Normally you have the same guard for 3 hours or so.

As to luggage on seats, yes that is a post pandemic problem. We never had a proper lock down here and people created distance with their luggage.
My daily experience is that with a polite "excuse me" 99% will shift their luggage.

What surprised me is that people don't ask! I was on a packed OBB train - people standing throughout and sitting on the floor, yet no one aksed a woman to move her luggage which was blocking a seat, despite there being a ton of space under/between/over the seats.

I think guards changed 3 times in the 6.5 hour trip from Frankfurt to Vienna.

 

[Austriantrain]

I think guards changed 3 times in the 6.5 hour trip from Frankfurt to Vienna.

One change will happen on the German/Austrian border - and probably another one in Nürnberg?

I'll post a proper report on my DB and OBB experiences shortly but just wanted to concur with the above - station dwell times seem to be incredibly long, with no urgency to dispatch the increasingly delayed trains I rode on.

If you are train staff and know your train is going to be late whatever you do, you will tend to lose the motivation to speed things up. Same as in any job really.

 

[Richard Scott]

If you are train staff and know your train is going to be late whatever you do, you will tend to lose the motivation to speed things up. Same as in any job really.

Surely you're motivated to try and improve the situation not make it worse? I would be.
I've been on trains in Germany that start off on time then get later just due to slow dispatch at station stops.

 

[Trainbike46]

Surely you're motivated to try and improve the situation not make it worse? I would be.
I've been on trains in Germany that start off on time then get later just due to slow dispatch at station stops.

are you sure they weren't being held for connections? that is relatively common in Germany

 

[Austriantrain]

are you sure they weren't being held for connections? that is relatively common in Germany

It might also be because above-average passenger changeover, or simply because the line wasn’t free to leave yet (once a train is late, regulation will usually prioritize punctual trains). As a passenger, I really wouldn’t want to presume knowing the reasons, even less that staff is lazy. But surely, being late all the time and getting passengers‘ frustration is not a motivating factor.

 

[Richard Scott]

are you sure they weren't being held for connections? that is relatively common in Germany

Absolutely definitely not awaiting connections.

 

[duesselmartin]

as said, most lines run to the limit, a late train that missed its path has to squeeze in somewhere causing more delays.
Personally I am often amazed how short dwelling times can be meaning there is reserve to catch up on a few minutes delay. Timetables seem to trimmed to theoretical speed which then cannot be achieved.

 

[Austriantrain]

Absolutely definitely not awaiting connections.

How could you be sure? in every single case of increased dwell you noticed?

 

[paul_munich]

Dwelling times are usually much to short, with only two minutes...

 

[Richard Scott]

How could you be sure? in every single case of increased dwell you noticed?

I'm not an idiot I can see if a train comes in and passengers change and I can understand German announcements so I know when an announcement tells me we're waiting for a connection. More often than not the announcement says that the connection won't wait for the delayed train I'm on.
I can also use Hafas so can see if a late running train is due in. Sorry but almost every time it's dithering staff; many a time I've been stood on platforms and watched them.

 

[duesselmartin]

Dear Richard, beside your agressive I do doubt that you have enough inside knowledge of how the system works.
Slandering the staff who work under tremendous pressure is really beyond words.

 

[haltendehand]

It's not about incriminating or 'slandering' staff - it's really a question of company culture. It's very difficult to dispute that despatch is often done in a leisurely manner in Germany and that persistently travelling at +1 / +2 is just not seen as a problem.

This used to be the same in (and on occasion still is in some corners of) GB - years of emphasis on 'right time' metrics and 'every second counts' campaigns have really hammered the message home, so that if anything the opposite problem now exists here (staff closing train doors 10-15 seconds before scheduled departure so as to leave at the precise right moment). Most of the staff haven't changed during this culture shift! It is very much about culture, procedure, and operational rules, not about people.

 

[duesselmartin]

My observation from regular travel. Doors are closed when all passengers are in board and the signal is OFF.
If there is chat between changing crews it is usually operational matters.
The problem is not enough slack in the timetable to counter minor hick ups.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's not about incriminating or 'slandering' staff - it's really a question of company culture. It's very difficult to dispute that despatch is often done in a leisurely manner in Germany and that persistently travelling at +1 / +2 is just not seen as a problem.

This used to be the same in (and on occasion still is in some corners of) GB - years of emphasis on 'right time' metrics and 'every second counts' campaigns have really hammered the message home, so that if anything the opposite problem now exists here (staff closing train doors 10-15 seconds before scheduled departure so as to leave at the precise right moment). Most of the staff haven't changed during this culture shift! It is very much about culture, procedure, and operational rules, not about people.

It’s not that you don’t have a point but… If that was the only problem German rail had at the moment…

I'm not an idiot I can see if a train comes in and passengers change and I can understand German announcements so I know when an announcement tells me we're waiting for a connection. More often than not the announcement says that the connection won't wait for the delayed train I'm on.
I can also use Hafas so can see if a late running train is due in. Sorry but almost every time it's dithering staff; many a time I've been stood on platforms and watched them.

You are a know-it-all, are you?