German Rail in decline ?

[TravellingPhil]

It looks as though the direct route via Bremen is blocked for engineering works and through services are diverted via Hannover (which isn't much slower). DB "minor" engineering works are typically only published a month or so in advance.
Incidentally, I amxnot convinced the timetable is completely updated!

Your ticket automatically becomes valid on any DB train the same day. Provided a potential 2-hour delay into Brussels is no problem, I don't think you need be overly concerned.

You can refund and rebook any seat reservations.

Thank you. Thought the issue would be between Hamburg and Koln somewhere. Might actually work to our advantage and take the pressure off changing from the sleeper train if we're allowed to take any onwards ICE service. We're not going straight onto Eurostar in Brussels and spending the night there instead...so any delays there only mean we'll be more ready for bed when we arrive!

We have first class tickets so hopefully finding new seats shouldn't be an issue...but if I'm given a chance to rebook then I will.

Very pleased I booked it in the way I did with a hotel at the end of each German leg of our trip. Just had that gut feeling it was a good idea...

 

[rvdborgt]

Your ticket automatically becomes valid on any DB train the same day.

Exactly. Please don't cancel or rebook the original ticket, just travel on it.

 

[TravellingPhil]

Exactly. Please don't cancel or rebook the original ticket, just travel on it.

No I won't! Like I said, we'll take advantage of the flexibility.

The trains on Sunday 15th from Hamburg to Brussels look a bit busy on the reservations in 1st class though...but we'll find something. A shame because I managed to bag the table for two on both trains. But seeing we're coming off the back of two nights on sleeper trains...she'll probably won't want to be looking at me anyway!

(Although if we're on time, we still might make our original train leaving earlier)

 

[deltic]

Arrived in Angermunde a few minutes late, hurried to the rail replacement bus stop outside the station with 20 other people wanting to carry on towards Szczecin only to see the empty bus drive out of the station forecourt with the driver looking at us - only an hour wait till the next one!

 

[TravellingPhil]

Just seen that SJ are going to keep running their Stockholm sleeper to Berlin over the winter months which is great news.

I expect that means my EuroNight train will now arrive in HBF instead of Altoona. Hopefully, that will buy me a little bit more time in sorting out my onward connection to Koln/Brussels with my 'cancelled' ticket.

I should be recieving emails with all the changes that have been made on my tickets soon, and if not, I guess I turn up and go with the flow!

Travelling through Germany certainly isn't straight forward is it? But good to see some positive news today. (Half tempted to rebook and carry on to Berlin on the sleeper and add an extra day to our trip...but you've got to draw a line on an adventure somewhere. I guess we should be concentrating on getting to Brussels, not getting further away from it!)

 

[LYuen]

I went to North Rhine-Westphalia months ago and took a few train rides.
I was surprised that all regional express trains I took were bang on time while almost all ICE services were slightly late (10-20 minutes, but I only travelled short distance between Düsseldorf and Colonge)
The RE trains were operated by National Express and Eurobahn, by the way.

 

[duesselmartin]

I went to North Rhine-Westphalia months ago and took a few train rides.
I was surprised that all regional express trains I took were bang on time while almost all ICE services were slightly late (10-20 minutes, but I only travelled short distance between Düsseldorf and Colonge)
The RE trains were operated by National Express and Eurobahn, by the way.

That can vary due to engineering. A hit and miss.
IC and ICE trains pass so many construction sites and bottle necks there is a lot of potential to build up delay.

 

[dutchflyer]

Am now in Bremen, landed on a plane from NOrway in Hamburg this afternoon, and in HH HBF about any arriving ICE was at least 20 mins late, other leaving varying from 40-77 mins and also many (including mine) REgional trains moving platform on the last minute (run-run-run)- in short the usual picture of the last monthes.
Compare that to the really excellent presentation in Oslo/NO by VY on its very frequent and comfy local/regional services.

 

[Austriantrain]

DB has now presented its plans to renew the network - 40 lines will be closed or partly closed at some point during the coming years to completely refurbish them:

In German:

https://www.deutschebahn.com/resource/blob/11344496/93ac55503a77067bf9ab24b26f051612/20230915_Faktenblatt_Bund-und-DB-legen-Streckenabschnitte-fuer-Generalsanierung-fest-data.pdf

 

[renegademaster]

If British Rail never done it's big rationalisations we'd be in the same situation, but rationalisation has had its own problems, mainly for people on lesser used services and the lack of any redundancy when things go wrong. Long services that go on multiple lines rather than simple trunk services build up delays , Germany has lot more than we do. CrossCountry is our version which is almost always late

 

[Austriantrain]

If British Rail never done it's big rationalisations we'd be in the same situation, but rationalisation has had its own problems, mainly for people on lesser used services and the lack of any redundancy when things go wrong. Long services that go on multiple lines rather than simple trunk services build up delays , Germany has lot more than we do. CrossCountry is our version which is almost always late

Not comparable. Germany doesn’t have an equivalent to London, so the entire network resembles XC and cannot be (usefully) organized otherwise.

 

[renegademaster]

Not comparable. Germany doesn’t have an equivalent to London, so the entire network resembles XC and cannot be (usefully) organized otherwise.

I'm not suggesting that Germany goes down out path, (though it could, but with regional hubs and spokes) , but why it is like it is , and the trade-offs they decided.

 

[Austriantrain]

though it could, but with regional hubs and spokes)

How exactly could it? What would that mean?

I'm not suggesting that Germany goes down out path, (though it could, but with regional hubs and spokes) , but why it is like it is , and the trade-offs they decided.

Nothing like that at all. They simply reduced infrastructure grants - like much else in order to balance the budget - and have ended with an enormous investment backlog and much too little network expansion. It’s as simple as that.

 

[WildNorthlands]

Great, an opportunity to tell the tale of my recent trip to Berlin - please bear with me -

On the outbound as we arrived in Bruxelles on Eurostar it was announced that the Köln train would not be departing from Bruxelles MIdi but from Bruxelles Nord. So the bunch of us who were travelling on had to run around Midi to find a local train that was going to Nord. On arrival there was a huge crowd of people waiting for the train to come in - people going on holiday - babies in pushchairs etc - so as the train came in there was a crush. Although the carriages have display screens showing the coach numbers, when the doors are open these are obscured (or so it seemed to me) so no-one knew where their coach was. We all piled on, and in my case it was about half an hour into the journey before I got to my seat. We continued in cramped conditions, the connection had been held in Köln so I got to Berlin an hour late.

On the return journey, my ICE set off from Berlin on time, but we got to a place called Wolfsburg, possibly, where it was announced that the train was going to sit there for an hour and twenty minutes. This meant I was likely to miss all my connections back to Sheffield. At Cologne, obviously I had missed my connection but the subsequent train had been held and it was the same pile-on-and-try-to-find-a-seat situation.

At Bruxelles, I had missed my connection but Eurostar were brilliant and got me on the next train, which was also running a bit late. I had given up hope of making my connection to Sheffield for which I had allowed 2 hours but as we approached St. P. I realised I had about 7 minutes so I legged it (only having a small rucksack helped) and made it onto my train so by a miracle got back to Sheffield on time.

A few comments: Deutschebahn did their best to maintain connections but there was very little information about what would happen at the next station. I’m sure there was some problem between Bruxelles and Köln but I never got to find out what the problem was despite extensive Googling.There were no real-time timetables available that I could find - I’ve got used to being able to look at National Rail and work out what to do if my train is late but there was nothing like that that I could find for DB. The net result was that instead of being able to relax and enjoy the journey I was constantly worrying about my next connection.

Also, just to make a comment about East Midlands Railways. They seem to be totally focused on running trains on time at the expense of anything else. At St. Pancras last Friday, the 11:02 to Sheffield was running late, so at the last minute, after having boarded the Nottingham service they turfed everyone off it so they could use it for the Sheffield service. As I was going to Sheffield that was great for me, but really, is that any way to treat passengers?

Apologies for lengthy ramblings!

 

[haltendehand]

If British Rail never done it's big rationalisations we'd be in the same situation, but rationalisation has had its own problems, mainly for people on lesser used services and the lack of any redundancy when things go wrong. Long services that go on multiple lines rather than simple trunk services build up delays , Germany has lot more than we do. CrossCountry is our version which is almost always late

CrossCountry is nothing like 'almost always late' - 6.5% of its services are over 15 minutes late. This compares with currently 18.6% on German long-distance trains - nearly 3x worse. Not a single operator in GB comes even close to the staggering unreliability of DB at the moment.

 

[rvdborgt]

I’m sure there was some problem between Bruxelles and Köln but I never got to find out what the problem was despite extensive Googling.There were no real-time timetables available that I could find - I’ve got used to being able to look at National Rail and work out what to do if my train is late but there was nothing like that that I could find for DB. The net result was that instead of being able to relax and enjoy the journey I was constantly worrying about my next connection.

The DB Navigator app (and the DB website) has real time information. Although once you get into Belgium, you'd better check on the NMBS/SNCB website or app since DB don't update the outgoing trains anymore once they've left Germany.

 

[The exile]

DB has now presented its plans to renew the network - 40 lines will be closed or partly closed at some point during the coming years to completely refurbish them:

In German:

https://www.deutschebahn.com/resource/blob/11344496/93ac55503a77067bf9ab24b26f051612/20230915_Faktenblatt_Bund-und-DB-legen-Streckenabschnitte-fuer-Generalsanierung-fest-data.pdf

When you consider the recent history of some of these lines, it’s a pretty savage indictment that so much work is needed. This isn’t like the newly unified DBAG discovering their East German assets (sorry liabilities)

 

[RT4038]

When you consider the recent history of some of these lines, it’s a pretty savage indictment that so much work is needed. This isn’t like the newly unified DBAG discovering their East German assets (sorry liabilities)

Looks to me like mostly very heavily trafficked lines - perhaps a lesson to be learned about hammering the infrastructure and not maintaining it enough?

 

[philosopher]

I'm not suggesting that Germany goes down out path, (though it could, but with regional hubs and spokes) , but why it is like it is , and the trade-offs they decided.

Looking at a map, most of the major cities in Germany are located around the edges with few large cities in the middle. There is also no preeminent city like London in the UK or Paris in France, which means there is no city that dominates demand for intercity passengers. This means Germany can’t really run its intercity passenger network on a hub and spoke model as any hub city would end being poorly located in a city that that would not have any more demand than many other German cities. Germany can’t also set up a linear intercity rail network like in Italy or Japan as that would require most of the major cities to be located along a line.

Germany therefore seems to have an awkward geography for intercity rail.

 

[haltendehand]

Looking at a map, most of the major cities in Germany are located around the edges with few large cities in the middle. There is also no preeminent city like London in the UK or Paris in France, which means there is no city that dominates demand for intercity passengers. This means Germany can’t really run its intercity passenger network on a hub and spoke model as any hub city would end being poorly located in a city that that would not have any more demand than many other German cities. Germany can’t also set up a linear intercity rail network like in Italy or Japan as that would require most of the major cities to be located along a line.

Germany therefore seems to have an awkward geography for intercity rail.

There are benefits and drawbacks to Germany's shape and population distribution. On the one hand, it makes it very difficult to build new high-speed mainlines between one very large city and a series of medium-sized cities, in the French or Spanish way.

On the other hand, it makes it much easier to get good loadings and justify investment right across the country, as intercity flows are much less strongly directional and involve lots of travel between all places along a given line.

Germany also benefits from a large number of decent-quality intercity railway lines, often providing several alternative routes between major city pairs. Unfortunately, this has also given the railway an excuse to invest little into new lines, whilst trying to fit an increasing amount of both intercity, freight, and regional services on to inadequate double track mixed-traffic lines. For example, going from the Ruhr towards Hamburg or Berlin you have two route choices - via Osnabruck or via Hamm/Bielefeld/Minden. But both of these have long double-track sections with each a 2-4tph regional service, 1tph semi-fast, 2-3tph fast + plenty of freight.

There is now beginning to be some thought of whether a new pair of tracks along one of these routes (probably the latter) might conceivably be a good idea - but this is at least 10-15 years away. Same situation for Frankfurt-Mannheim/Heidelberg. And even then, they will almost inevitably insist on running some 200kph 'regional' services over these high speed lines, in addition possibly to some freight!

Effectively, the German strategy of mixing fast/regional/freight traffic on virtually all lines derives from their geography and is partly inevitable, but the German ideological insistence on it is fundamentally incompatible with the intensive service that is now run in the country. Every single other major country in Europe (including GB) seems to understand this, just not Germany.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

I wonder how much of their current problems could still be due to the 40 or so years of partition where 2 different operators (DB and DR) operated with a different set of lines and cities to deal with and different levels of investment. They have done much in the last 30+ years but that legacy may still remain.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can you imagine Network Rail putting up a list of 40 major routes for heavy investment over a relatively short period?
One line at a time is hard enough, or perhaps one line per region.
I didn't see any costs or priorities in the list - costs must be massive, and it will all have to sequenced without destroying the network in the process.
I regard Germany's distributed character (dating from the separate states and railways pre-1871) as an advantage.
It stops one area receiving all the investment over the others, and guarantees a network of multiple hubs and spokes.

 

[duesselmartin]

Looking at the map one wonder who drew it. Oberhausen to Emmerich is blocked for engineering as we speak. So ist Cologne to Düsseldorf.

 

[DanielB]

Looking at the map one wonder who drew it. Oberhausen to Emmerich is blocked for engineering as we speak. So ist Cologne to Düsseldorf.

It is however true that the Oberhausen - Emmerich line will be blocked (most of the time only a single track) for 80!!! weeks, starting in October 2024 and lasting until spring 2026. With no trains at all in the summer holiday season 2025.

With that lengthy shutdown in 2025 I'm wondering what they actually have been doing in the lengthy construction periods this year and in the previous years.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is however true that the Oberhausen - Emmerich line will be blocked (most of the time only a single track) for 80!!! weeks, starting in October 2024 and lasting until spring 2026. With no trains at all in the summer holiday season 2025.

With that lengthy shutdown in 2025 I'm wondering what they actually have been doing in the lengthy construction periods this year and in the previous years.

Maybe they're adding a fourth track, in addition to the third track they were working on this summer

In all seriousness though, that is a very long disruption, what on earth will they be doing???

 

[Austriantrain]

Maybe they're adding a fourth track, in addition to the third track they were working on this summer

In all seriousness though, that is a very long disruption, what on earth will they be doing???

Sounds like „reconstruction from the bottom up“. That’s usually what needs to happen when you start neglecting maintenance.

 

[williamn]

Think they need to do some reconstruction on board too given my experiences today. No food other than chocolate bars and croissants loaded for the 6.5 hour Vienna to Frankfurt trip. No working loos in the first class carriages on that train or my following (late) connection to Brussels.

 

[duesselmartin]

It is however true that the Oberhausen - Emmerich line will be blocked (most of the time only a single track) for 80!!! weeks, starting in October 2024 and lasting until spring 2026. With no trains at all in the summer holiday season 2025.

With that lengthy shutdown in 2025 I'm wondering what they actually have been doing in the lengthy construction periods this year and in the previous years.

I wonder where they will fit all that freight traffic. The line via Venlo? That is partially single track so very limited in capacity. In the end it might even be a loss of business for the port of Rotterdam if rail access is so limited.

 

[Trainbike46]

I wonder where they will fit all that freight traffic. The line via Venlo? That is partially single track so very limited in capacity. In the end it might even be a loss of business for the port of Rotterdam if rail access is so limited.

I believe that is the normal diversion route. The frequency of freight traffic heading towards venlo was certainly massively increased during the closures this summer.

Could they divert some trains via Heerlen or via Almelo?

 

[DanielB]

I believe that is the normal diversion route. The frequency of freight traffic heading towards venlo was certainly massively increased during the closures this summer.

Could they divert some trains via Heerlen or via Almelo?

Diverting via Hengelo - Bad Bentheim only makes sense towards the north of Germany, for the Ruhrgebiet diverting via Venlo is the only option really making sense. But that's also why the line why Oberhausen - Emmerich will remain open as a single track for 60 of the 80 weeks: to accommodate freight trains. Diverting an ICE is much easier.
Heerlen - Aachen is not really an option for diverting freight as the line is already full with the half-hourly RE18.

And by the way not only the availability of a border crossing is relevant, the connecting lines in the Netherlands are as well. From the Rotterdam port most alternative freight paths to Germany run via the Brabantroute (via Breda - Eindhoven - Venlo) and there are some options via the Betuweroute taking the connecting loop towards 's-Hertogenbosch -> Eindhoven -> Venlo.
Coming from Rotterdam routing trains via Bad Bentheim is not really practical as these will need to go via Amsterdam and the Amsterdam Bijlmer - Diemen Zuid curve these would need to use has an at-grade intersection with the busy Amsterdam Zuid - Weesp main line in one direction.