Merseyrail Class 777 travel experiences

[Bletchleyite]

The seats are hard but this is due to fire regulations, Merseyrail has very narrow tunnels in the central section under Liverpool and this comes with very strict fire regulations.

Our tunnels are smaller than Crossrails tunnels, and we can only really be compared to the London Underground and other metro systems with small tunnels, something to bare in mind when visiting.

That'll be the London Underground that has soft seats throughout?

I'm sorry, this argument isn't true in the slightest. The fire regulations make it more expensive and complex to provide softer seats (e.g. LU uses things other than thicker padding - air cushions on the S stock and traditional deep-sprung seats on most deep Tube stock - obviously metal springs can't catch fire), but they categorically do not mandate the seats to be hard.

However, my main complaint isn't about the hardness of the seats, I don't mind well-shaped hard plastic ones as many non-UK metros use. It's about the shape and size of the seats, neither of which has anything to do with fire regulations at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that the seats are designed for the “average” person, then you go on to say most people you meet are not average, have the designers got it wrong with their definition of average, or are you just a serial complainer.

Seats shouldn't include elements that make them specific to certain body sizes/shapes, e.g. lumbar curves and curved headrests. The simpler the seat, the better. That way it suits more different shapes of people.

Despite the fact that people whinge about it, the Fainsa Comrail "ironing board" is an excellent example of a seat that will suit a wide range of different body shapes because it isn't specific to any one of them. It's often slated for the base being hard, but the later designs of it (for Northern and ScotRail) fix that.

This is one thing that's really going for the Lumo and Avanti seat other than its "winged" headrest which may be an issue to very tall people (it's quite high up, though, so you'd need to be *very* tall for it to clout your shoulders). It's near enough flat so it isn't specific to any one body type so will suit lots of people.

 

[irish_rail]

You say that the seats are designed for the “average” person, then you go on to say most people you meet are not average, have the designers got it wrong with their definition of average, or are you just a serial complainer.

No I just call out this kind of thing. Why should tall people be excluded from being comfortable? It wouldn't be acceptable to penalise the disabled.

 

[Vinnym]

No I just call out this kind of thing. Why should tall people be excluded from being comfortable? It wouldn't be acceptable to penalise the disabled.

I rest my case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I rest my case.

The poster is 100% correct. These seats are an utterly, utterly terrible piece of non-design. Literally any of the current off the shelf designs would be better. The only new-generation units with a worse interior are the 720s, and that's solely because of the too-tight 3+2, the actual seats are going on the 730s in 2+2 and I'm sure they'll be fine.

 

[Vinnym]

The poster is 100% correct. These seats are an utterly, utterly terrible piece of non-design. Literally any of the current off the shelf designs would be better. The only new-generation units with a worse interior are the 720s, and that's solely because of the too-tight 3+2, the actual seats are going on the 730s in 2+2 and I'm sure they'll be fine.

Another serial complainer enters the fray.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another serial complainer enters the fray.

In the end there's no excuse for such a highly-hyped and expensive product to be quite so utterly mediocre. Money has been spent on the wrong things, and they don't even work and weren't tested properly.

If you like them, great, but I think they're awful, bar the level boarding. The biggest anticlimax in the history of the railway as I have experienced it. And I'm well known as a Stadler "fanboi".

The level boarding aside, the way to do this sort of train's interior is the Class 345. It's near-faultless - looks classy, comfortable and easy to move through despite not going for narrow seats. And that in a 2.7something metre wide body, narrower than Merseyrail had to play with. The London Underground S8 is also excellent, and has the level boarding - they are getting to needing a bit of a refurb now, but they are extremely difficult to fault.

 

[Vinnym]

If you like them, great, but I think they're awful,

If you look back through my posts you will find I have never passed any comment on the seats.
You seem to have a downer on the 777 after travelling a return journey to Kirkby, you stated you had backache, really.
My original post this morning to “Irish Rail” was because he stated that the seats had been designed with the average person in mind and most people he knew were taller than average, if they had been designed to suit the taller person perhaps Mr Average would find them uncomfortable, you can’t please everyone.
On another note, I spoke to a driver when he was entering the cab at Ormskirk last week and he said they were great to drive, so perhaps when the teething problems are solved and everyone gets used to them things will settle down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You seem to have a downer on the 777 after travelling a return journey to Kirkby, you stated you had backache, really.

Yes. I've stated why.

My original post this morning to “Irish Rail” was because he stated that the seats had been designed with the average person in mind and most people he knew were taller than average, if they had been designed to suit the taller person perhaps Mr Average would find them uncomfortable, you can’t please everyone.

By keeping the shape generic you'll please more people. I don't think, for instance, that I have ever heard a complaint from anyone about the seats on the original Desiros (the Grammer E3000).

 

[irish_rail]

If you look back through my posts you will find I have never passed any comment on the seats.
You seem to have a downer on the 777 after travelling a return journey to Kirkby, you stated you had backache, really.
My original post this morning to “Irish Rail” was because he stated that the seats had been designed with the average person in mind and most people he knew were taller than average, if they had been designed to suit the taller person perhaps Mr Average would find them uncomfortable, you can’t please everyone.
On another note, I spoke to a driver when he was entering the cab at Ormskirk last week and he said they were great to drive, so perhaps when the teething problems are solved and everyone gets used to them things will settle down.

Not having a protruding headrest isn't going to inconvenience anybody, whether average height or not. That would be my gripe. The population is getting taller too. Looking at young people im amazed how tall they are getting. These trains should see us to 2050, population will only get taller not shorter, and "average" will increase in height. I imagine from your posts you are on the small side, and perhaps a touch of the green eyed monster perchance........

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not having a protruding headrest isn't going to inconvenience anybody, whether average height or not. That would be my gripe. The population is getting taller too. Looking at young people im amazed how tall they are getting. These trains should see us to 2050, population will only get taller not shorter, and "average" will increase in height. I imagine from your posts you are on the small side, and perhaps a touch of the green eyed monster perchance........

Exactly. A more "generically shaped" seat suits more people.

 

[Sam 76]

Having been on the 17:16 off Central to Ormskirk twice this week I have a couple of observations

1. The Yellow box would never work there was nowhere else for people to go other than the doors and would I suspect be widely ignored

2. Although only two instances the doors seemed to have no problems with people being close to them and I have never noticed it cause a problem at all

3. The quicker more 777s arrive and are available and fixing the technical issue that stops them coupling to make 8 cars the better. It will solve more than yellow boxes ever would

4. There should have been a fob installed in the drivers cab so when trains are super busy the guards are able to perform their duties not squashed and safely

 

[irish_rail]

As a side note 2 of my family members (non enthusiast) have now both sampled them on the Wirral Line. My mother says she really doesn't like them - style over substance, not enough seats, feel very cramped, and very uncomfortable. My uncle says he likes the general feel of them, that they "feel like a European train", however the seats are awful.

Its nice to hear what actual (non enthusiast) users thinks. This goes completely with what people i know up there say (also non enthusiasts) , basically that the seats are dire. It does seem to actual users, the poor seating seems to be the main issue (aside from the constant break downs) and that all the perks beloved by enthusiasts such as "stylish" black fronts, tram appearance, and walk through carriages, really aren't what the general public care about. In an ideal world, id rip out all the seating right now and put something bearable in place, perhaps something along the lines of an IET seat, not great but bearable for 45 minutes!

 

[Halsteadj]

First trip on a 777 today. Lovely trains. Vast improvement on the old stock in so many ways. Nothing wrong with the seats (no more uncomfortable than a Metrolink Tram).

 

[8A Rail]

First trip on a 777 today. Lovely trains. Vast improvement on the old stock in so many ways. Nothing wrong with the seats (no more uncomfortable than a Metrolink Tram).

So they are 'uncomfortable' - your word. However Class 777's are not 'light rail' though, it is apparently a train and I would expect the seats to be much better. Not knowing your actual journey, you wish to sit on one of those seats for the whole journey, say between Liverpool Central and Chester or Southport? The seats are ok for 'short' journey of say 15 minutes but longer to avoid 'num bum', you would need to stand up for a few minutes before thinking about sitting down again, by then you lose your seat on a packed Unit. Not an ideal way of travelling sadly. Almost everything else about a Class 777 is fine, once they have ironed out the various technical issues out.

Two 777s have been reported at Walton Old Junction today rather than the expected one in 777152, so did one or both of these stay behind?

Both went to Kirkdale with 777152 at WOJN MSC Sidings. I am not aware of another Class 777 going to WOJN MSC Sidings from Kirkdale, why would one go anyway?

 

[Halsteadj]

So they are 'uncomfortable' - your word. However Class 777's are not 'light rail' though, it is apparently a train and I would expect the seats to be much better. Not knowing your actual journey, you wish to sit on one of those seats for the whole journey, say between Liverpool Central and Chester or Southport? The seats are ok for 'short' journey of say 15 minutes but longer to avoid 'num bum', you would need to stand up for a few minutes before thinking about sitting down again, by then you lose your seat on a packed Unit. Not an ideal way of travelling sadly. Almost everything else about a Class 777 is fine, once they have ironed out the various technical issues out.


Both went to Kirkdale with 777152 at WOJN MSC Sidings. I am not aware of another Class 777 going to WOJN MSC Sidings from Kirkdale, why would one go anyway?

For Metro transport, light or heavy rail, I think the seats are fine. I used the word “uncomfortable” as it’s been used many times on this thread so wanted to see for myself. Bury to Manchester is comparable to Liverpool to Chester. I don’t see the problem. The whole experience is a step change up from 507/508 and is to be applauded in my view.

 

[irish_rail]

First trip on a 777 today. Lovely trains. Vast improvement on the old stock in so many ways. Nothing wrong with the seats (no more uncomfortable than a Metrolink Tram).

I kind of feel before making these statements posters should post both the trip they did (ie 5 minutes or 45 minutes), and also their BMI. I've no doubt to a very overweight person the zero padded seat may be ok, but not for everyone.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Just doing James Street to Chester on my first 777 so will report back how numb my arse gets

 

[Liverpool 507]

So they are 'uncomfortable' - your word. However Class 777's are not 'light rail' though, it is apparently a train and I would expect the seats to be much better. Not knowing your actual journey, you wish to sit on one of those seats for the whole journey, say between Liverpool Central and Chester or Southport? The seats are ok for 'short' journey of say 15 minutes but longer to avoid 'num bum', you would need to stand up for a few minutes before thinking about sitting down again, by then you lose your seat on a packed Unit. Not an ideal way of travelling sadly. Almost everything else about a Class 777 is fine, once they have ironed out the various technical issues out.


Both went to Kirkdale with 777152 at WOJN MSC Sidings. I am not aware of another Class 777 going to WOJN MSC Sidings from Kirkdale, why would one go anyway?

I did the journey on Friday from Liverpool Central to Chester on 777001. No issues with seat comfort, nor do I have any issues with Fainsa ironboards or 80X seating. Regulations change over time, people fussing and practically expecting new trains to come with leather Dreamliner seats.

 

[AJDesiro]

I did the journey on Friday from Liverpool Central to Chester on 777001. No issues with seat comfort, nor do I have any issues with Fainsa ironboards or 80X seating. Regulations change over time, people fussing and practically expecting new trains to come with leather Dreamliner seats.

I can generally tolerate firm seats, but the 777 seats are shaped in a way that make it painful to sit for whatever duration. A seat back shouldn’t be shaped in a “c” shape, they should be shaped in a way in which they provide lumbar support, but don’t force someone to sit in a hunched back position. The 777 seats are the only seats I find painful to sit in, and are easily Fainsa’s worst seats on my opinion.

Good seats (in my opinion) can be made under the new regulations, just look at the Pendolino/Lumo, FISA LEAN and Kiel seats.

 

[Northerngirl]

Having riden the 777s quite alot now, I don't understand where the seat issues are coming from, sure they are less padded than something like a 319, but are a huge improvement from the 507/8. They are just as hard & similar shape, but the fabric is so much nicer to sit on with thin clothes & the 'leather' headrests are infinitely nicer to lean back on. The information screens seem to be accurate now, although I have noticed that most people still haven't realised that the door buttons can be pressed before the stop.

 

[lrailadventure]

I don't understand where the seat issues are coming from, sure they are less padded than something like a 319, but are a huge improvement from the 507/8. They are just as hard & similar shape

I wouldn't say they are a similar shape as a 507/8's seat. I'm 5'11 and can comfortably sit on the older seats for the full duration of Ormskirk to Liverpool, however on the newer trains by the time we hit the Aintree area, my back is already sore from the uncomfortable and unnatural curve in the seat. I find myself having to sit forwards and not lean on the seat back or stand for the duration of the journey and I'm not exactly the tallest person out there..

A wooden park bench is more comfortable than what Merseyrail/Stadler have designed in my opinion.

 

[Parjon]

I can confirm they are uncomfortable. Not sure if it's the padding or the material. Heard a bunch of girls chatting to the guards saying they didn't like them. Overheard staff as well saying "no one likes them". I think they do need redoing.

Assuming they can get the trains running reliably, it would be silly to ruin the experience for the sake of seats.

 

[irish_rail]

I can confirm they are uncomfortable. Not sure if it's the padding or the material. Heard a bunch of girls chatting to the guards saying they didn't like them. Overheard staff as well saying "no one likes them". I think they do need redoing.

Assuming they can get the trains running reliably, it would be silly to ruin the experience for the sake of seats.

Trouble is nothing will be done. You only need to look at GWR IET seating. Its cr*p but 6 years in we are still stuck with the same seats. Merseyside will be stuck with this seating for many years to come and its a terrible shame in my opinion. Mind you, our current "prime minister " seems completely and utterly un interested in anything other than the private car right now so none of us should be surprised.

 

[DelW]

Whilst merseyrail are bending over backwards to accommodate everyone with a disabilty (and rightly so) yet they seem to be happy to discriminate against the significant proportion of society who are taller than the average height.

Ironic since the problem is apparently that passengers are having to bend over forwards to fit in the seats

Trouble is nothing will be done. You only need to look at GWR IET seating. Its cr*p but 6 years in we are still stuck with the same seats. Merseyside will be stuck with this seating for many years to come and its a terrible shame in my opinion.

The IET seats are getting even worse since the seat base padding is disintegrating, so you feel the hard seat frame, yet still nothing is being done to improve them. (Last time I changed at Reading, the Turbo I changed onto was much more comfortable, which is the other way round from what it should be).
I wouldn't expect any changes to the 777 seats either.

 

[ExRes]

Trouble is nothing will be done. You only need to look at GWR IET seating. Its cr*p but 6 years in we are still stuck with the same seats. Merseyside will be stuck with this seating for many years to come and its a terrible shame in my opinion. Mind you, our current "prime minister " seems completely and utterly un interested in anything other than the private car right now so none of us should be surprised.

In what world does the Prime Minister, Labour, Conservative or any other description, have to do with the seating selected by TOCs for their trains? do you think Starmer will order new seating for all trains as a priority if Labour take power? the people who should be getting the blame are those that actually have the power, even though I doubt they have the cash, to have the current seating replaced

Just out of interest, has anyone actually made a concerted effort to get those that can make decisions involved or is it just internet and social media complaints? because as sure as eggs are eggs they're not going to do anything unless made to

 

[BMoiz]

I can confirm they are uncomfortable. Not sure if it's the padding or the material. Heard a bunch of girls chatting to the guards saying they didn't like them. Overheard staff as well saying "no one likes them". I think they do need redoing.

Assuming they can get the trains running reliably, it would be silly to ruin the experience for the sake of seats.

I can confirm they are perfectly comfortable and for the avoidance of all doubt, since it's really important to people in Plymouth that this be covered, my BMI is 21.7, my height is 175cm and I was sat in the same seat from James Street all the way down the Ellesmere Port branch and did not exit the train needing a chiropractor, nor did any of the other passengers (although I did see someone get confused by the level boarding and try to step "down" onto the platform and do an amusing hop when there was no down)

 

[Djgr]

I can confirm they are perfectly comfortable and for the avoidance of all doubt, since it's really important to people in Plymouth that this be covered, my BMI is 21.7, my height is 175cm and I was sat in the same seat from James Street all the way down the Ellesmere Port branch and did not exit the train needing a chiropractor, nor did any of the other passengers (although I did see someone get confused by the level boarding and try to step "down" onto the platform and do an amusing hop when there was no down)

I can proudly say that I have no problems with the seats. There has always been an anti-Merseyrail (and indeed Liverpool) bias in this forum and so I am barely surprised.

 

[irish_rail]

I can proudly say that I have no problems with the seats. There has always been an anti-Merseyrail (and indeed Liverpool) bias in this forum and so I am barely surprised.

So you think I have an anti Liverpool bias do you......?? Thats interesting....

I can confirm they are perfectly comfortable and for the avoidance of all doubt, since it's really important to people in Plymouth that this be covered, my BMI is 21.7, my height is 175cm and I was sat in the same seat from James Street all the way down the Ellesmere Port branch and did not exit the train needing a chiropractor, nor did any of the other passengers (although I did see someone get confused by the level boarding and try to step "down" onto the platform and do an amusing hop when there was no down)

So you are 5"8? Average height or just below id say for a man. Therefore your opinion is kind of irrelevant to be point I and others have made. Anyone OVER average height will be forced to hunch forward. This is an incredibly unnatural position to sit in and can lead to all kinds of problems. But as long as the seat perfectly fits the average height person with an average BMI that's all that matters isn't it. ..ffs

 

[mcnw35282]

The seating is as it is due to updated fire regulations for new trains that go undeground. They're not gonna be changed anytime soon so we're just gonna have to suck it up.