How differently could heritage railways in the UK have been?

[A S Leib]

Building off of the longest heritage railway extension thread, how different would the heritage railway map of the UK look if it had started at more or less the same time* across the country instead of individual groups seeking to preserve their own local lines? What if there'd been less opposition to serving national rail stations? Would there have been far fewer lines, with the remaining ones being longer (e.g. the GCR reaching central Leicester instead of the Battlefield line being preserved)? Would the focus of some have shifted towards mainline connections (e.g. the Dean Forest Railway having a museum at Lydney instead of Norchard - I'm not saying that these particular examples are massively likely)?

*As far as I can tell, around twenty were opened in each decade between the 1970s and 1990s, with ten or so each from the 1960s and 2000s.

 

[Roger1973]

What if there'd been less opposition to serving national rail stations?

Not having been involved at the time (and only involved very occasionally at the fringes of railway preservation since) - whose opposition?

Did the preserved railways not want to connect to the main line, or did BR not want to share space? I can see difficulties about sharing the same running lines (driver training and qualification, signalling and so on) but that wouldn't / wouldn't have ruled out separate line / platform arrangements.

I realise that (for example) the Bluebell and Watercress Lines started at the 'remote' end of their current line, and connected with the BR / national rail station as a later phase, but not sure what the reasons were behind this. I have read that one of the initial aims of (what became) the Watercress line was to offer a commuter service to link with BR at Alton (it may not have been as simple as that), but this never happened.

 

[A S Leib]

Not having been involved at the time (and only involved very occasionally at the fringes of railway preservation since) - whose opposition?

Did the preserved railways not want to connect to the main line, or did BR not want to share space? I can see difficulties about sharing the same running lines (driver training and qualification, signalling and so on) but that wouldn't / wouldn't have ruled out separate line / platform arrangements.

I realise that (for example) the Bluebell and Watercress Lines started at the 'remote' end of their current line, and connected with the BR / national rail station as a later phase, but not sure what the reasons were behind this. I have read that one of the initial aims of (what became) the Watercress line was to offer a commuter service to link with BR at Alton (it may not have been as simple as that), but this never happened.

I'm too young to have been involved so I might be working off of wrong assumptions, but from what I - possibly - know, in some cases BR / some in the government didn't want the impression to form that groups of volunteers could run lines whilst the government wasn't able to.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I realise that (for example) the Bluebell and Watercress Lines started at the 'remote' end of their current line, and connected with the BR / national rail station as a later phase, but not sure what the reasons were behind this.

Original hope of the "Bluebell" was to acquire the line between East Grinstead and Culver Junction (near Lewes). The initially proposed society name was the "Lewes-East Grinstead Railway Preservation Society".

Not sure they had the funds to buy all the line, even if it was ever actually available for purchase, so instead the society had to scale back its ambitions, and instead focus on preserving the shortish four and a half mile section from Sheffield Park to (just short of) Horsted Keynes, two rural stations seemingly in the middle of nowhere, but Sheffield Park does have the National Trust gardens nearby, and Horsted Keynes was, in the late 1950s/early 1960s, still connected to the national rail network via Ardingly.

 

[Magdalia]

When I was at school, the library had a book "Railway Enthusiast's Handbook". A few years ago I bought a copy of the 1970-71 edition for £1, to remind me what railway enthusiasm was like when I first got interested.

At that time preservation was dominated by narrow gauge railways. The book has a list of operating standard gauge light railways which is very short.

Bluebell Railway
Dart Valley Light Railway
Derwent Valley Light Railway
Foxfield Light Railway
Keighley & Worth Valley
Middleton Railway

There was little interest in standard gauge preservation while steam traction was still available on British Railways. The Bluebell, Dart Valley and Keighley & Worth Valley were exceptions.

The book also has a list of societies preserving Lines, which is a bit longer. Some of them never came to anything.

Border Union Railway
Clevedon & Yatton Railway
East Lancashire Railway
Isle of Purbeck Preservation (now Swanage)
Kent & East Sussex Railway
Lakeside Railway
Main Line Preservation (now Great Central)
North Norfolk Railway
North Yorkshire Moors Railway
Severn Valley Railway
Stour Valley Railway
Stratford upon Avon Transport Action (now Gloucestershire and Warwickshire)
Yorkshire Dales Railway

Things only really got going after steam finished on the main line. That was long enough after the Beeching era closures for many lines to have been dismantled and the land sold. Then it was the art of the possible, often involving lines that had escaped the Beeching Axe but were then closed later.

Also bear in mind that in the 1970s British Railways were in decline, whereas car ownership and the road network were expanding rapidly. Rail connection only became a significant issue much later.

 

[JohnElliott]

Original hope of the "Bluebell" was to acquire the line between East Grinstead and Culver Junction (near Lewes). The initially proposed society name was the "Lewes-East Grinstead Railway Preservation Society".

Not sure they had the funds to buy all the line, even if it was ever actually available for purchase, so instead the society had to scale back its ambitions, and instead focus on preserving the shortish four and a half mile section from Sheffield Park to (just short of) Horsted Keynes, two rural stations seemingly in the middle of nowhere, but Sheffield Park does have the National Trust gardens nearby, and Horsted Keynes was, in the late 1950s/early 1960s, still connected to the national rail network via Ardingly.

In the case of the Bluebell, the rationale for Sheffield Park was that it had a reliable supply of water.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the case of the Bluebell, the rationale for Sheffield Park was that it had a reliable supply of water.

Certainly helps if it's a steam heritage line, but wasn't operating some sort of service using a diesel railcar (ex GWR) originally envisaged in the Bluebell s early days?

 

[RT4038]

I'm too young to have been involved so I might be working off of wrong assumptions, but from what I - possibly - know, in some cases BR / some in the government didn't want the impression to form that groups of volunteers could run lines whilst the government wasn't able to.

There was considerable opposition from the railway Trade Unions for 'volunteer' (indeed anyone not being paid BR terms and conditions) staff manning trains from running over the same metals as their members. And the preservation societies were not able to afford to pay staff (the sheer cost of whom were usually the reason for the lines having shut in the first place).

As for any fanciful notion that BR / some in the government were worried about impressions - the distinction between paid trained staff at NUR/ASLEF rates versus 'volunteers' would be pretty well understood, and unlikely to form the basis of any mainstream transport network.

 

[paul1609]

I'm involved with the Kent & East Sussex Railway at the very beginning BR said it was a bad idea and wanted the society to instead preserve the Hawkhurst branch running a Titfield Thunderbolt style commuter service into Paddock Wood. They might have been right!

 

[RobShipway]

Certainly helps if it's a steam heritage line, but wasn't operating some sort of service using a diesel railcar (ex GWR) originally envisaged in the Bluebell s early days?

As per https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/earlydays1.html it was originally envisaged that the Bluebell Railway would be using an EX - GWR flying banana! But as the details in the link says, a) they failed to get the funds to run from East Grinstead all the way through to Lewes and b) there was no enthusiasm from the locals, hence why it was then turned into a steam museum.

I'm involved with the Kent & East Sussex Railway at the very beginning BR said it was a bad idea and wanted the society to instead preserve the Hawkhurst branch running a Titfield Thunderbolt style commuter service into Paddock Wood. They might have been right!

Has the Hawkhurst branch finally been converted into a cycle path now or are the plans still on hold awaiting funds?

 

[randyrippley]

What could have made a difference is if some of the closed lines had been hived off into something akin to a national rail version of British Waterways / Canals Trust, to be run principally with volunteers but centrally controlled

 

[RobShipway]

What could have made a difference is if some of the closed lines had been hived off into something akin to a national rail version of British Waterways / Canals Trust, to be run principally with volunteers but centrally controlled

But I think there would be complaints from the unions NUR/Aslef if that had been done, as they would I have no doubt suggest that the trains should be operated by trained staff with it being on a national British Rail trust, rather than private individuals on a volunteer basis.

 

[paul1609]

As per https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/earlydays1.html it was originally envisaged that the Bluebell Railway would be using an EX - GWR flying banana! But as the details in the link says, a) they failed to get the funds to run from East Grinstead all the way through to Lewes and b) there was no enthusiasm from the locals, hence why it was then turned into a steam museum.


Has the Hawkhurst branch finally been converted into a cycle path now or are the plans still on hold awaiting funds?

I think that an application was made for lottery funds for £1m to upgrade what is basically mostly a farm access road for the stretch from Hartley (Cranbrook) to Goudhurst in 2011 and nothing was ever heard. North of the A262 to Paddock Wood very little of the route is still visible on the ground although Horsmonden station still exists as a garage. A group tried to raise funds to save Hawkhurst signalbox for Robertsbridge Junction 5? Years but the owner just demolished it in the end.