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HS2 Manchester leg scrapped: what should happen now?

Norm_D_Ploom

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I worry that people will actually believe it. But I expect Labour might just about scrape by in 2029/2030 after a big majority in 2024/2022025
Next year possibly depends on what happens in Scotland.

If the SNP vote breaks up then Lab have a chance of the size of majority you mention, although personally I would imagine that it would be closer to Cameron's numbers than Boris's
 
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12LDA28C

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I am amazed that so many people feel the need to make reference to the Daily Mail and by doing so, give them free publicity. The days of newspapers being information dissemination bodies have been overtaken by social media and it is those people who cannot move with the times still make references to past icons who need to move with the times.

So what exactly is the purpose of newspapers in the modern world? On the few occasions I've had the misfortune to glance at the Daily Mail, it seems to only exist in order to tell its readers what their opinion is, or should be. If that's 'moving with the times' then I'd prefer to be stuck in the past, thanks.
 

SteveM70

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I still use the phrase "running out of steam" on occasion though I have only ever once been in a situation where that literally happened. Maybe I need to get with the times and think of something more modern

Running out of charge for your EV?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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So what exactly is the purpose of newspapers in the modern world? On the few occasions I've had the misfortune to glance at the Daily Mail, it seems to only exist in order to tell its readers what their opinion is, or should be. If that's 'moving with the times' then I'd prefer to be stuck in the past, thanks.
I am beginning to despair. Yet another mention made of the Daily Mail, which appears to have impregnated its name in the memory banks of all just to the left of centre in political beliefs.
 

12LDA28C

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I am beginning to despair. Yet another mention made of the Daily Mail, which appears to have impregnated its name in the memory banks of all just to the left of centre in political beliefs.

Singularly failing to answer the question there, well done. Are you a politician? Also I would say the actions of the current Government is pushing most people's political beliefs further and further left of centre, if you're in the habit of making sweeping generalisations.
 

Peter Sarf

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Noting "industry insiders" above, I would also show both RMT and ASLEF, as if HS2 ever came to fruition, it would be a most attractive entity in which to disrupt it to their hearts delight by industrial inaction.
Very good point. And I have heard a recent comment on the plight of HS2 as "good riddance - just another railway to strike on". Yes in some circles the railways are actually a dirty word.
I don't know if BR would've had the luxury, but ultimately I feel like we'd have the same problems. The issue is very much with UK management of big infrastructure projects along with mismanagement. Most of the railway's problems are systematic and could be fixed without nationalisation, so with HS2 privatisation probably wasn't a factor in the spiralling costs.


I worry that people will actually believe it. But I expect Labour might just about scrape by in 2029/2030 after a big majority in 2024/2025.
Most of the time BR would not be allowed to invest in anything like a bit of new line let alone a whole new mainline.

I think Labour's last exit from power was handing the Tories a poison Chalice. Then along came Covid which can be used as blame for everything even the side effects of Brexit. So the Tories have been immune. Except some will actually blame the Tories for Covid, not how they did/did-not/pretended-to handle it but its very existence.
I still use the phrase "running out of steam" on occasion though I have only ever once been in a situation where that literally happened. Maybe I need to get with the times and think of something more modern.
Running out of bandwidth or Wi-Fi down might be todays version of running out of steam.

Oh how about running out of Credit (as distinct from money).
Looking at how different newspapers write their headlines for the same piece of news, I wouldn't agree with that. They can't all have become virtues of impartiality. (And neither are they required to be, unlike broadcast news).
I suppose I still think of the Independent and its rather bland reports - just facts it seemed. Goodness knows when I last touched a newspaper except when being asked to look out for McDonalds' vouchers in the Metro (London). Not for me I might say !.
 

matacaster

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Rob Holden, Finance Director of London and Continental Railways at the time, claims that he managed to deliver HS1 on time and under budget because only a handful of people were aware of the true budget. Meanwhile with HS2 all the contractors and consultants were wanting the biggest slice of the pie and inflated their prices upon learning of the line's budget before even a single piece of track was laid down.
On Radio4 this morning one of the main contractors said Eustonhad been gold plated and they were proposing a much simpler cheaper design.
 

21C101

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I am beginning to despair. Yet another mention made of the Daily Mail, which appears to have impregnated its name in the memory banks of all just to the left of centre in political beliefs.
As it is the most widely read newspaper worldwide with 429.6 million readers worldwide last year (about 1 in 20 of the entire planets population), has US and Australian online versions; as well as being the biggest selling UK (paid for) printed newspaper having overtaken The Sun, it is not entirely surprising it is commonly cited
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Singularly failing to answer the question there, well done. Are you a politician? Also I would say the actions of the current Government is pushing most people's political beliefs further and further left of centre, if you're in the habit of making sweeping generalisations.
You appear to have not had sight of my posting that made reference to the decline of newspapers with the advent of social media. Most of the younger generation with their smart phones access their news requirements by that method.
 

Krokodil

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You have proved my point by still talking of newspapers, rather than social media.
You are aware presumably that there are online editions of these newspapers, and that the one mentioned manages 218m unique visitors per month? They link to their articles on social media.

I am beginning to despair. Yet another mention made of the Daily Mail, which appears to have impregnated its name in the memory banks of all just to the left of centre in political beliefs.
Also I would say the actions of the current Government is pushing most people's political beliefs further and further left of centre
Quite. A few years ago I was definitely to the right of the then PM Cameron. Now? Definitely towards the centre. The fact that the current administration couldn't run a bath has largely contributed to that.

You appear to have not had sight of my posting that made reference to the decline of newspapers with the advent of social media. Most of the younger generation with their smart phones access their news requirements by that method.
The younger generation who are much less likely to show up on polling day? What makes you think that the Tories will be appealing to them for votes? The fact remains that the age group who tend to read said newspaper, and who remember the seventies (when things actually were out of hand) are the ones the government depends upon to vote for it.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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As it is the most widely read newspaper worldwide with 429.6 million readers worldwide last year (about 1 in 20 of the entire planets population), has US and Australian online versions; as well as being the biggest selling UK (paid for) printed newspaper having overtaken The Sun, it is not entirely surprising it is commonly cited
There are a sizeable majority on this website when wanting to vent their angst on many subjects seem to gravitate to the mention of the Daily Mail as something that they can decry to their hearts delight. These same people are most probably those who cast their vote on polls on threads concerning General Elections and the like, with the result that this website in recent years has been totally wrong in its poll predictions.

The younger generation who are much less likely to show up on polling day? What makes you think that the Tories will be appealing to them for votes? The fact remains that the age group who tend to read said newspaper, and who remember the seventies (when things actually were out of hand) are the ones the government depends upon to vote for it.
That statement will not go down well with the current leadership of the Labour Party.
 

Krokodil

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Last year, I was at a meeting in which it was said that the Labour Party was the natural political home of first-time voters and cited the number of such who joined in the Corbyn General Election campaign when the Labour vote showed a sizeable rise in numbers.
And yet he still didn't win, did he? He won even less the next time around.
 

Noddy

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I don't know if BR would've had the luxury, but ultimately I feel like we'd have the same problems. The issue is very much with UK management of big infrastructure projects along with mismanagement. Most of the railway's problems are systematic and could be fixed without nationalisation, so with HS2 privatisation probably wasn't a factor in the spiralling costs.

Indeed. The Lower Thames Crossing project has cost £800 million (so over three quarters of a billion pounds!) on a planning application. There’s no doubt that big infrastructure costs a lot (and I understand that globally railway projects average 50% over budget), but the projects that are cheapest are the ones that have the least involvement from politicians playing politics.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Indeed. The Lower Thames Crossing project has cost £800 million (so over three quarters of a billion pounds!) on a planning application. There’s no doubt that big infrastructure costs a lot (and I understand that globally railway projects average 50% over budget), but the projects that are cheapest are the ones that have the least involvement from politicians playing politics.
Reading what you say above, into whose coffers did the stated £800 million go from the planning application. Some organisation must have benefitted quite handsomely.
 

stuu

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Indeed. The Lower Thames Crossing project has cost £800 million (so over three quarters of a billion pounds!) on a planning application. There’s no doubt that big infrastructure costs a lot (and I understand that globally railway projects average 50% over budget), but the projects that are cheapest are the ones that have the least involvement from politicians playing politics.
That includes all the design work, and almost certainly some boreholes too. 10% of the budget to get from idea to construction doesn't strike me as too bad, even if the amount in actual money is astronomical
 

DynamicSpirit

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Indeed. The Lower Thames Crossing project has cost £800 million (so over three quarters of a billion pounds!) on a planning application.

Whaaaat? That's utterly absurd! In other words, if we take a professional salary at about 50K, it's cost the equivalent of 16 000 person years to essentially do paperwork on planning it, without even finishing that stage. And I see the estimated total cost for building is £9 Bn - that's not far off 1/10th the cost of HS2, or nearly half the cost of the Elizabeth Line (and presumably likely to rise once they start building) for what is basically just a couple of miles of road tunnel under the Thames plus maybe 5-10 miles of above ground new road through the countryside. Something must be seriously wrong with the way we do infrastructure projects in the UK!
 

Trackman

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Sky news reporting this now.. again just gossip 'Sky News understands....'

HS2 will go to Manchester on the WCML but wont be high speed.
Baffling eh?


HS2 will start at Euston rather than Old Oak Common - but between Birmingham and Manchester it will not be high speed, Sky News understands.

The rail line will stop in Manchester, but from Birmingham it will switch to use existing West Coast Mainline track.


It will therefore not be high speed after Birmingham - effectively confirming days of speculation that the northern leg of the controversial project has been shelved.

Alongside the doubt over Manchester, there have also been question marks over Euston station and whether the line would terminate there as originally planned.

There had been rumours that it could stop at Old Oak Common instead, but Sky News understands the rail line will stop at Euston in a move that could be designed to placate critics.


The development, broken on the Politics Hub with Sophy Ridge programme, follows repeated attempts by Rishi Sunak and other members of the Cabinet to bat away questions regarding the future of the northern leg of the project.

The government initially tried to downplay the original reports, saying they were "incorrect" and that no "final decisions" had been made regarding the northern leg, known as phase two.
 

Killingworth

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If I were in Rishi's position I'd press on with Euston rather than leaving a large, expensive hole in the ground in central London, a monument to incompetent administration at all levels. A reminder for generations to come.

I'd also press on to Crewe to give some linkage to the north and allow HS2 trains to reach Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland.

A pause for reflection on the best solution for Manchester, kick the can up the road for a few years like Waterloo was for HS1.

The eastern leg? Pause until electrification to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield has been signed off. Not anther announcement of intent but firm dates and contracts agreed so the eastern leg connects up to allow HS2 trains to reach these cities.

Leeds, York and Newcastle can look forward to HS2 via Manchester - subject to TPU completion.

Most of which will be subject to yet more delays and cancellations by future governments. I don't expect I'll ever ride on an HS2 train!
 

GardenRail

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The eastern leg? Pause until electrification to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield has been signed off. Not anther announcement of intent but firm dates and contracts agreed so the eastern leg connects up to allow HS2 trains to reach these cities.
Never then. They can't even commit to Leicester properly.
 

aaronspence

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The Sky News headline "HS2 will go to Manchester - but from Birmingham it will run on existing tracks” is so positively spun towards the Tories im sort of lost for words.

Based on that statement it already exists...
 

HSTEd

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The Graun (Guardian) is reporting that Arup et al are now desperately trying to find ways to save money to sell the project to Rishi.

Consultant heal thyself.
 

Trestrol

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Don't know if anybody say the BBC news at 6 tonight. They said the original cost for HS2 was worked out from a computer drawing. No survey was conducted on the ground. Unbelievable!
 

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