Confirmed : HS2 West Midlands-Manchester line to be scrapped and replaced with other projects.

[DarloRich]

Update from the Press Association Wires:

really? Would it not have been an idea to mention this yesterday during the speech? Anyone would think they were making this up as they went along. I KNEW the Euston development zone was an excuse for top tory chums to trouser more of our money!

The whole thing is pointless without going to Euston - is that the point? To do a full on scorched earth plan for the next government?

Complete what is already underway and once open I suspect pressure build for extensions ...............

the problem is the Tories seem to want to salt the well and make sure no one CAN build extensions of any sort!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it feasible for some trains to run from OOC to Paddington ? Given All Paddington ICs will be stopping at OOC.

No.
The lines are on different levels and alignments, and Paddington is full anyway.
It's the same at Euston, where the HS2 tracks are below the main station level, and with no connection between the two.
As it stands at the moment, the only connection between HS2 and the classic railway will be at Handsacre in the Trent Valley.
There will be a local connection at Calvert with the E-W line, but that's just for the infrastructure depot.

 

[class26]

the problem is the Tories seem to want to salt the well and make sure no one CAN build extensions of any sort!

Quiet possibly but I would hope (and there have been many alternate route plans appearing from time to time) that with imagination there will be ways found to extend northwards in due course. The optimist in me says this isn`t the end .....................

 

[yorkie]

Can we please try to ensure posts are polite, respectful and relevant (I know this isn't always easy!)

Also just a reminder that in this particular thread, we should stick to what has actually been announced; if anyone would like to post anything of a speculative nature, for example how a particular project could/might/should be carried out, or any alternative projects/proposals (such as scrapping HS1 entirely!), these should be posted in Speculative Discussion please.

Feel free to create a new thread, if there isn't one already; any such threads can be linked to from here but we do ask that this thread remains to debate the factual matters.

Also if you wish to get into a political discussion, this should take place in General Discussion please.

Thanks!

 

[8A Rail]

Never mind these 'we like to new builds, improvements, extensions, fill in pot holes etc' why not do the simple thing which I am sure it would be appreciated by the majority of people, to get the current railway operating has intended, all trains operating as scheduled, with very few cancelations, running to time and with sufficient capacity too. Oh yes, settle the railway disputes too. They are simple things to action but that too difficult though for this Government, so what chance that any of the wish list will get the go ahead and past planning stage 'even' if they returned to power. No chance, more lies and excuses will follow. That is the real answer!

 

[Tezza1978]

Update from the Press Association Wires:

I don't think there will be any issue raising the investment given the smaller footprint of the revised station, the high value of the land, that fact that all clearance work is complete and the level of investment made in Battersea/Nine Elms even though Euston is obviously a smaller site.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

Who built the French high speed network much cheaper than we can build high speed line. Was a lot of it done internally by SNCF? I notice in France they dont build much high speed rail into big cites and use existing stations in Paris, savings all the way.

On HS1 the signalling is french, is the overhead line also french design?

How does SNCF do it so well?

 

[Energy]

Who built the French high speed network much cheaper than we can build high speed line. Was a lot of it done internally by SNCF? I notice in France they dont build much high speed rail into big cites and use existing stations in Paris, savings all the way.

On HS1 the signalling is french, is the overhead line also french design?

How does SNCF do it so well?

It isn't an easy comparison. SNCF already had terminals with 400m platforms and being able to reuse them was by moving suburban services to underground tunnels.... but the money for this came under RER rather than TGV.

France and Britain are quite different geographically, our population layout is much closer to Japan. France has the benefit of most of the land being farming.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm trying to understand the stuff about the new station in Bradford and 30-minute journeys to Manchester that a few people have speculated on.

The details in the full Network North document are this:

We will bring Bradford into Northern Powerhouse Rail by investing £2 billion45, doubling capacity, almost halving journey times to Manchester and providing a new station. The new Bradford station will support regeneration efforts in the UK’s seventh-largest city. It will facilitate a new rail connection to Manchester via Huddersfield, almost halving journey times while enabling us to double the frequency of service and double the capacity with up to an extra 1,000 seats per hour. Bradford-Huddersfield will be able to go from 1 train per hour that takes 37 minutes, to at least 2 trains per hour and taking only 12 minutes. Bradford-Manchester will go from 55 minutes 45 2019 prices. Subject to confirmation of delivery timelines. 29 today to 30 minutes with Northern Powerhouse Rail. Bradford-York will go from 49 minutes today to 33 minutes

From that detail, I would surmise that what the Government is thinking of is a new direct line from Bradford to Huddersfield (I'm pretty sure there's no other way to get that journey down to 12 minutes), along with substantial line-speed improvements between Huddersfield and Manchester - to get that journey time down from 30 minutes to 20 minutes (Is anything like that already planned as part of Northern Powerhouse Rail?). Hard to make out what the new station in Bradford might be without delving into speculation, but I think we can rule out any speculation about it being some kind of Bradford Crossrail, because that's not relevant to anything that document specifies. I'm tempted to wonder whether it will actually end up as some kind of parkway station on the outskirts of Bradford to serve the new line to Huddersfield (although I hope that's not the case).

Also worth noting that Bradford is mentioned as one of the places that the proposed mass-transit system for Leeds is intended to reach.

 

[richieb1971]

When a railway costs £307m per mile you have to ask yourself if its worth it. (googled it). I blame the ballooning costs.



Land and property seems acceptable. The rest is just incomprehensible to me in 2023 when machines do most of the work and tunnels and bridges are pre-fabricated.

Value for money is the basis on which all things should be done.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

but TfW are in the process of accepting and introducing a fleet of 77 brand new 197s which are diesel only. I argued on here years ago that they should have future proofed them by ordering bi-modes but was shot down. But here we are.
Anyway back to the route, the announcement is being unpacked and unsurprisingly torn apart:

This is a poor political show from the Welsh Government.
They are peeved they were not consulted, and that Westminster has not devolved rail infrastructure to WG (along with the money).
So it's already not enough, or it's too much, and should have gone through Cardiff Bay.

The WG, through TfW Rail, runs services from North Wales to Manchester and Crewe, but they are not politically responsible for anything outside Wales.
Lee Waters can sniff, but Cheshire will welcome the electrification of Chester-Warrington/Crewe.
It will mean electric working to Manchester, Birmingham and Crewe (and hopefully via the Halton curve to Liverpool).
HS2 trains will be able to reach Chester and the coast.

TfW aren't planning to use bi-modes on North Wales services, but they do have Stadler class 756 tri-modes which could be redeployed from South Wales, and displaced 197s can be recycled to needy TOCs.
The western part of the line will have to be resignalled first (Llandudno Jn-Llandudno/Holyhead).

 

[Carlisle]

To be fair, I'd have more faith in Johnson delivering this sort of package.

Of course, his August 2019 enquiry into HS2s viability wasn’t ever likely to reach any conclusion other than the one it eventually did.

 

[urbophile]

There was a rubber stamping cabinet meeting on Wednesday morning to formally approve. But realistically any resistance wouldn't have been worth while, Sunak's distaste of public transport is fairly well known.

A true Thatcherite in that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Who built the French high speed network much cheaper than we can build high speed line. Was a lot of it done internally by SNCF? I notice in France they dont build much high speed rail into big cites and use existing stations in Paris, savings all the way.
On HS1 the signalling is french, is the overhead line also french design?
How does SNCF do it so well?

French high speed lines were built by their big contractors like Bouyges and Eiffage, not SNCF who led the design of the network.
Some of those contractors are part of the four consortia building HS2 Phase 1 (along with UK and other European partners).

HS1 OHLE is a French (SNCF) design, and we have adopted a more advanced version of that spec for HS2.
Signalling on HS1 is French (SNCF TVM430, essentially the same as in the Channel Tunnel and on LGV Nord).
Signalling on HS2 will be ETCS, but the contract has not been placed yet - it could come from one of several suppliers, Alstom being one.

I don't recall any of the French LGVs being altered once the go-ahead was given.
They were also built quickly and seemingly without much fuss, though through empty countryside mainly.
France does have problems getting lines authorised and funded though, mainly because of the powerful Regional governments.
That's why they have some very odd intermediate stations, to satisfy the locals.
The last two LGVs, the Tours-Bordeaux and Brittany line west of Le Mans, were funded by the contractors themselves, with a toll charge to SNCF for using them - PFI deals if you will, or like Eurostar and the Channel Tunnel.

 

[PaulHarding150]

TfW aren't planning to use bi-modes on North Wales services, but they do have Stadler class 756 tri-modes which could be redeployed from South Wales, and displaced 197s can be recycled to needy TOCs.
The western part of the line will have to be resignalled first (Llandudno Jn-Llandudno/Holyhead).

How far can those run on diesel/battery? Unless they are solely used for North Wales stopping serves/services to Liverpool/Manchester/Chester I can't see them being much use. 197s (and Mark IV) will still be running North to South.

Plus TfW/WG will need to order identical/near idential replacments for the 756s in the south - they may as well order new stock for the north.

 

[A0wen]

The fiends. Will this governmental evil know no end? I hope they are looking after the Llama's ! ( That was always a nice refreshment stop on my way to Scotland)

Slightly OT - but it closed late 2021 - probably took a hit during the lockdowns of 2020/21 that it struggled to recover from https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/19584759.llama-karma-kafe-closes-a66-near-penrith/

i hope so!
The A1 was announced, again, for what must be the 77th time.

The thing with the A1 is there are several things which still need sorting out so an 'announcement' on the A1 could mean any one of several different schemes

The Planning Inspectorate sent its report to the Transport Secretary in August and he has till November to decide.

Fair enough - I'd expect the A66 to get the go-ahead, not least because there's a pretty good safety argument and most of it is 'in-filling' the remaining sections of single carriageway where other bits of dual carriageway have already been built. I think the biggest works were probably at Penrith where they were looking at fairly signficant changes to the M6 junction.

Who built the French high speed network much cheaper than we can build high speed line. Was a lot of it done internally by SNCF? I notice in France they dont build much high speed rail into big cites and use existing stations in Paris, savings all the way.

France has a population density of about half the UK - much of the TGV networks mileage was built through open countryside where the only objector was the farmer who's land the line was going across and he was usually assuaged by ensuring he had a bridge / underpass to allow him to get around his land still. Whereas HS2 was heading out of the UK's largest city - London being almost 10 million people in an area of over 600 square miles - Paris by contrast has a population of 2 million people in an area of 1100 sq miles. I'm sure you can work out why the project to build a railway line across relatively sparsely populated open countryside is far easier than into and out of two major cities and once out of them through fairly well populated areas.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think there will be any issue raising the investment given the smaller footprint of the revised station, the high value of the land, that fact that all clearance work is complete and the level of investment made in Battersea/Nine Elms even though Euston is obviously a smaller site.

There are sightline issues which make significant use of the land at Euston difficult. Also, the clearance is to a deeper level than the surrounding land.

 

[Arkeeos]

For Euston wouldn't there be lawsuits, as the land can only be used to build the railway station, if part of it is getting removed for housing, then that's a change in the reason for purchasing the land.

It seems ridiculous to me that there's no way to block and delay this.

Or that decision to build hs2 was delivered by the oakervee review which was an independent, 140 page report was what was needed to start it, but Sunak's ideological obsession and terribly made 40 page report is all that is needed to cancel it, isn't that completely insane?

 

[nr758123]

I mean thats obvious just by reading the document, its quite frankly one of the worst government documents I have ever read.

It make the Integrated Rail Plan (not integrated, not a plan) look competent, professional and coherent by comparison.

Is the idea here to improve Nottingham - Leeds but also relieve capacity on the M1 corridor route?

How is it realistic to put these extra fast trains from Nottingham to Leeds via Doncaster, and the promised four fast trains an hour between Sheffield and Leeds through the already heavily used Moorthorpe to Leeds section of route?

From that detail, I would surmise that what the Government is thinking of is a new direct line from Bradford to Huddersfield (I'm pretty sure there's no other way to get that journey down to 12 minutes), along with substantial line-speed improvements between Huddersfield and Manchester - to get that journey time down from 30 minutes to 20 minutes (Is anything like that already planned as part of Northern Powerhouse Rail?).

I've done the maths, probably in the same way as whoever came up with this idea did the maths. It's 10 miles in a straight line from Huddersfield to Bradford, and at an average 50mph that takes 12 minutes.
I'm burdened by the knowledge that there are towns and quite big hills along that straight line which make the idea a complete non starter. That's before considering how many trains it's possible to put through three tracks up to Marsden and two tracks from there to Stalybridge.

 

[wilbers]

Its on the BBC now. Euston platforms cut from 11 to 6, Euston Square tube station scrapped; even the scaled-down version of Euston still dependent on private investors.

HS2 will not go to Euston without private funds

If the money cannot be raised then passengers travelling to and from central London will have to change.

www.bbc.co.uk

The HS2 rail line will not be extended to London Euston unless enough private investment is secured for the project.

It has already cut the number of planned platforms for high-speed trains from 11 to six.

As part of the now scaled-back proposals, a planned pedestrian tunnel linking Euston station with the nearby Euston Square tube station has also been scrapped.

 

[A0wen]

A true Thatcherite in that.

Remind me again - which government authorised the electrification of the GEML from Manningtree to Norwich, the East Coast Mainline from Hitchin to Edinburgh (along with new rolling stock), electrification of the Hastings line, the cross City Line in Birmingham, the construction of the Manchester Metrolink, pretty much wholesale fleet replacement of the 1st Gen DMUs being used across the regional network, replacement of the stock on the London - Exeter line, resignalling and revamp of what is now the Chiltern Mainline, Thameslink among other things. Compare that with the electrification authorised by the Labour government between 1997 and 2010.......

 

[Pub]

No.
The lines are on different levels and alignments, and Paddington is full anyway.
It's the same at Euston, where the HS2 tracks are below the main station level, and with no connection between the two.
As it stands at the moment, the only connection between HS2 and the classic railway will be at Handsacre in the Trent Valley.
There will be a local connection at Calvert with the E-W line, but that's just for the infrastructure depot.

OOC to Willesden are only a few hundred metres apart could a connection be made there? I realise Euston is at capacity now but with the reduced number of platforms, is it possible?

 

[Chris 76]

It make the Integrated Rail Plan (not integrated, not a plan) look competent, professional and coherent by comparison.

How is it realistic to put these extra fast trains from Nottingham to Leeds via Doncaster, and the promised four fast trains an hour between Sheffield and Leeds through the already heavily used Moorthorpe to Leeds section of route?

I've done the maths, probably in the same way as whoever came up with this idea did the maths. It's 10 miles in a straight line from Huddersfield to Bradford, and at an average 50mph that takes 12 minutes.
I'm burdened by the knowledge that there are towns and quite big hills along that straight line which make the idea a complete non starter. That's before considering how many trains it's possible to put through three tracks up to Marsden and two tracks from there to Stalybridge.

I can imagine a new line between the Bradley Wood Junction/Brighouse area and Low Moor on the Bradford-Halifax line. It would have to be almost entirely in tunnel, below Hartshead Moor and Scholes. Curious about the proposed Bradford Station-a souped up Interchange, or a new through station to the south so that trains from the Calder Valley line to Leeds don't need to reverse at Bradford?

 

[Starmill]

Happens in Tokyo 30 times an hour

True but they've engineered their way out of the issues when it comes to station layout, in a way which we aren't proposing to do. Also they don't mind paying for the staff to service trains in that manner, would be night on impossible to get Japanese-standard cleanliness in a Japanese turnaround time using a British workforce and British passengers.

 

[Noddy]

I'm trying to understand the stuff about the new station in Bradford and 30-minute journeys to Manchester that a few people have speculated on.

The details in the full Network North document are this:



From that detail, I would surmise that what the Government is thinking of is a new direct line from Bradford to Huddersfield (I'm pretty sure there's no other way to get that journey down to 12 minutes), along with substantial line-speed improvements between Huddersfield and Manchester - to get that journey time down from 30 minutes to 20 minutes (Is anything like that already planned as part of Northern Powerhouse Rail?). Hard to make out what the new station in Bradford might be without delving into speculation, but I think we can rule out any speculation about it being some kind of Bradford Crossrail, because that's not relevant to anything that document specifies. I'm tempted to wonder whether it will actually end up as some kind of parkway station on the outskirts of Bradford to serve the new line to Huddersfield (although I hope that's not the case).

Also worth noting that Bradford is mentioned as one of the places that the proposed mass-transit system for Leeds is intended to reach.

Why even bother trying to understand it? It’s complete fantasy stuff, made up, probably on the bag of a fag packet, by someone who has never looked at a map of West Yorkshire or the Pennines. Offers to places like Liverpool, Leeds, Bradford etc are simply a divide and conquer method, which means no-one will get anything.

Sadly we’ve seen the my city is bigger than your city arguments for all to long on the HS2 subject (and this thread), and now those folk are authors of everyone’s misfortune. HS2 was the only show in town for any new railways and major capacity enhancements in the UK for the foreseeable future. If we are very lucky some marginal improvements to existing infrastructure will come out of this debacle but most of the projects announced yesterday will slowly disappear over the next few years are they always do.

 

[Arkeeos]

HS2 was the only show in town for any new railways and major capacity enhancements in the UK for the foreseeable future. If we are very lucky some marginal improvements to existing infrastructure will come out of this debacle but most of the projects announced yesterday will slowly disappear over the next few years are they always do.

HS2 is real which is more than I can say for any of the important proposals in that document (except of course the ones already constructed)

 

[21C101]

Starmer has said he wont reverse the decision

Labour leader reveals he would follow the Prime Minister's plan to use the savings to build high speed rail links across the North.

The Labour leader has revealed he would stick to the Prime Minister’s plan by using the savings to build high speed rail links across the North instead.

Keir Starmer will not bring HS2 back to life

Labour leader reveals he would follow Rishi Sunak’s plan to use savings from scrapping second leg to build transport links across North

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Arkeeos]

Starmer has said he wont reverse the decision

Keir Starmer will not bring HS2 back to life

Labour leader reveals he would follow Rishi Sunak’s plan to use savings from scrapping second leg to build transport links across North

www.telegraph.co.uk

He said he won't commit, not that it won't happen (I'm delusional I know)

 

[northwichcat]

Simple answer - you aren’t getting them.

Mr Sunak did say all the HS2 money will be spent on transport projects but not on HS2. Hopefully this will include projects to boost rail capacity in areas where the existing tracks are being used to bursting points. Although, I do suspect his motorist friendly policies will get HS2 money and some that invitation to tender for new rolling stock for Northern will be counted, when the government claim the money has been spent.

I notice you say "you aren't getting them". I don't know where I'll be living when any proposed infrastructure projects will actually be completed. I'll only back projects if I can see the value in them, whether they're local to where I currently live or not. After Northern and GWR were made to fight for the scraps that London Midland were throwing out, I feel Mr Sunak's annoucement is going to start a North vs South West fight for funding again. If it does please remember the North is 3 regions and the North West is one of the highest population regions and Yorkshire has a higher population than Scotland. Only the North East has a smaller population than the South West, even though it stretches for a very long distance.

 

[gg1]

He said he won't commit, not that it won't happen (I'm delusional I know)

Yet another issue where he's sitting on the fence.