Euston overcrowding concerns

[Bletchleyite]

If only there was a plan to build additional new track capacity arriving into a newly designed station.

Track capacity isn't really the issue (though you couldn't reduce it significantly more). The issue is the size of the concourse (due to the clutter and people arriving earlier due to being on Advances) and the "Euston scrum" caused by calling trains at the last minute when they have no need whatsoever to do so. Tip out, lock doors, call the train, usually that'll mean 15 minutes or so in advance and people can saunter down and queue by the relevant door. Oh, and the stupid positioning of the new departure screens which any regular Euston user could have told them on day one wasn't going to work, but presumably the advertising income from big advertising screens where the old one was is too attractive.

Yet another failure on our railways to add to all the others. Correct about too many shops, the location of the screens and the short time given to board services. All very poor.

I wouldn't agree with too many shops; a wide range of facilities is attractive at a major urban terminus, particularly as the nearest other shops of any significance (bar scruffy corner shops) are at Kings Cross. The mezzanine is an interesting debate, it doesn't really take up much floor space bar the escalator so I'm not sure it's a problem, though it does make the place feel cluttered. The external Tube access is annoying, but I believe was done so they can close the Tube station if there's a problem without backing up a queue onto the concourse.

 

[jon81uk]

Track capacity isn't really the issue (though you couldn't reduce it significantly more). The issue is the size of the concourse (due to the clutter and people arriving earlier due to being on Advances) and the "Euston scrum" caused by calling trains at the last minute when they have no need whatsoever to do so. Tip out, lock doors, call the train, usually that'll mean 15 minutes or so in advance and people can saunter down and queue by the relevant door. Oh, and the stupid positioning of the new departure screens which any regular Euston user could have told them on day one wasn't going to work, but presumably the advertising income from big advertising screens where the old one was is too attractive.

But the government have also cancelled the plans to build the new station.

My comment was intended to show the short-term thinking of Rishi Sunak cancelling most of HS2 has a lot more impact.

 

[Turtle]

Also Manchester Piccadilly. Too many shops at stations. When I was in Sydney a few years ago, I found Central Station a total contrast. There was a large unobstructed concourse and, from memory, a restaurant, a transport bookshop, a small museum and newsagent around the perimeter. This was 14 years ago though so maybe it's changed. Rental from shops will be significant and I suppose that's what matters.

There was a similar situation at London Victoria after it was modernised. Pedestrian flow between the LB&SCR and SE sides was initially improved and almost immediately stymied by retail outlets popping up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also Manchester Piccadilly. Too many shops at stations.

I don't find any flow issues with Manchester Piccadilly. The only two things I'd work on there are having a single gateline rather than three separate ones and a manual check for 13/14 (which would ease changing as you could do so without passing one other than by way of the footbridge), and sorting out 13/14 itself.

The "shopping arcade" is very useful and doesn't detract from the practicality of the station.

 

[norbitonflyer]

a platform is announced just as a train is arriving into said platform, resulting in a crush of passengers (for the announced train and several prior cancelled trains) clashing with a crush of people who are getting off the delayed arriving train and trying to leave the platform.

An unobstructed stampede of passengers in one direction, though unpleasant, is not necessarily a safety concern.

Standard practice at Waterloo, and not just when an arriving train is late. Late announcement also results in overcrowding of the rearmost carriages of departing trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that, given the ORR appear to be particularly concerned about a select few incidents rather than the "Euston Crush" that happens several times every day, their concerns are directed at those isolated (but still all too common incidents) where, during severe disruption, a platform is announced just as a train is arriving into said platform, resulting in a crush of passengers (for the announced train and several prior cancelled trains) clashing with a crush of people who are getting off the delayed arriving train and trying to leave the platform.

An unobstructed stampede of passengers in one direction, though unpleasant, is not necessarily a safety concern.

Paddington is worst for creating "collisions" by calling trains on one side of an island when the one on the other side is just tipping out.

 

[Kite159]

Reminds me of something last year on a Sunday where 3 trains arrived within a few minutes of each other (an Overground, a delayed LNR train from Crewe and a LNR from Birmingham) with the gateline being in use causing large queues as the LNR trains didn't hang around for long before going back towards Crewe/Birmingham. Took something silly like 10 minutes to get off the platforms.

Although same at Kings Cross once when 3 or 4 delayed LNER services arrived within 10 minutes of each other (signalling issues around Newark). The queue to get off the platforms was massive, all because they decided to have the gateline in operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reminds me of something last year on a Sunday where 3 trains arrived within a few minutes of each other (an Overground, a delayed LNR train from Crewe and a LNR from Birmingham) with the gateline being in use causing large queues as the LNR trains didn't hang around for long before going back towards Crewe/Birmingham. Took something silly like 10 minutes to get off the platforms.

When this happens it's usual to open the gateline (unlike other TOCs and stations that just ignore it). Surprised they didn't in your case - two simultaneous arrivals seem enough to trigger doing so. Installing a single gateline all the way across under the old departure board would fix this properly, though, particularly if they had it set up for one side in, one side out (which could be combined with the layout of the screens).

 

[josh-j]

I don't find any flow issues with Manchester Piccadilly. The only two things I'd work on there are having a single gateline rather than three separate ones and a manual check for 13/14 (which would ease changing as you could do so without passing one other than by way of the footbridge), and sorting out 13/14 itself.

The "shopping arcade" is very useful and doesn't detract from the practicality of the station.

There is a bit of an issue at Piccadilly sometimes on platforms when people are trying to get on and off a train at the same time. The downside of people already being on the platforms... but on the other hand the concourse is generally fine regardless of the shops, and that must be helped significantly by the number of people who can be accommodated on the platforms rather than penned into the concourse.

13 and 14 are a totally different story of course.

I always wondered whether the Euston situation might be something to do with anti-terror measures or something, but perhaps not if it varies by operator. That aside it seems a bit of a strange arrangement almost designed to cause as many people to crush together as possible.

 

[Kite159]

The issue with those platforms at Euston is they made the access ramp wider but didn't do anything about extending the gateline to cope with the extra passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always wondered whether the Euston situation might be something to do with anti-terror measures or something

I doubt it, because nobody* cares if you go onto platforms when the signs show Platform Closed, and the gates are left open when there isn't a train in.

* I was asked once by BTP where I was going, but I think that was more because I was going down the ramp and back on myself, which may have looked like I was headed towards the staff only underpass. An explanation that I was going to board the back coach of the incoming train was accepted without issues. And Avanti might care for revenue reasons, but not for security ones.

 

[edwin_m]

The new screens are an abject failure and should be removed. They make flow worse, not better. Any user of the station could tell them that.

But yes, just stop suppressing platforms, particularly for LNR services going from P8-11 which are designed, with seating etc, for people to arrive in small numbers over time and wait there.

I'd suggest the main problem is the late calling of the platforms, leading to lots of people standing staring at the screens. With relatively limited concourse space, that probably causes a blockage wherever the screens happen to be.

Would queueing on the ramps also help for Avanti departures? Clearly this would need platforms to be displayed early, making last minute replatforming more tricky, and also some kind of barrier and staff enforcement so arriving passengers could get off the platform.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I wonder why it took from Sep 26th until today for ORR to publish its Improvement Notice?

 

[nlogax]

I'd suggest the main problem is the late calling of the platforms, leading to lots of people standing staring at the screens. With relatively limited concourse space, that probably causes a blockage wherever the screens happen to be.

Resolution of the Euston Problem should be a combination of both ending the scrum / late calling and repositioning of the new screens back to the original location of their predecessors. As others have said, nothing wrong with the screens themselves but their positioning in the station is..questionable at best. The outside screens have been helpful during spring and summer days but now we're in autumn moving to winter they will be of limited use...if there's an opportunity for passengers to be warm and dry indoors while waiting for their trains then they'll take it.

 

[NSE]

The one I hate is when Kings Cross announce a platform such as 1 or 2 for a busy long distance Edinburgh or Leeds train just as one has arrived in 7 or 8. You get a rather unique complete right angle clash as they disembark and you alight. I love the (not so anymore) new Kings Cross concourse, but having it completely side on means there’s so frequently a clash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd suggest the main problem is the late calling of the platforms, leading to lots of people standing staring at the screens. With relatively limited concourse space, that probably causes a blockage wherever the screens happen to be.

Would queueing on the ramps also help for Avanti departures? Clearly this would need platforms to be displayed early, making last minute replatforming more tricky, and also some kind of barrier and staff enforcement so arriving passengers could get off the platform.

The main ramps to 4-7 and 12-15 have a middle gate which could be an exit fitted with one way valve doors as found at airports for exit.

 

[MikeWM]

The one I hate is when Kings Cross announce a platform such as 1 or 2 for a busy long distance Edinburgh or Leeds train just as one has arrived in 7 or 8. You get a rather unique complete right angle clash as they disembark and you alight. I love the (not so anymore) new Kings Cross concourse, but having it completely side on means there’s so frequently a clash.

They 'designed' it with the intent that most people would use the overbridge to get to the platforms and so avoid this issue. Of course in practice very few people use the bridge, as I'm sure most of us predicted would happen when the station was being remodelled and this suggestion was put forward.

As for Euston, there is definitely something uniquely unpleasant about waiting there, certainly when compared to what are, in theory, fairly similar setups at Paddington, Liverpool Street, Victoria and Waterloo. Maybe it is just a bad combination of small things (the location of the info boards, the late announcement of platforms, etc.) that conspire to make it so.

 

[josh-j]

Just announcing sooner would surely solve an awful lot. I'm not a regular user of Euston but standing looking at the screens for an indeterminate amount of time while also being in the way of everyone going to the platforms is not ideal.

Piccadilly has the screens next to the gate line but it is fine because people look at them for a few seconds, see their platform then walk away again. Nothing to keep people stopped in one area - they can disperse throughout the train shed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for Euston, there is definitely something uniquely unpleasant about waiting there, certainly when compared to what are, in theory, fairly similar setups at Paddington, Liverpool Street, Victoria and Waterloo. Maybe it is just a bad combination of small things (the location of the info boards, the late announcement of platforms, etc.) that conspire to make it so.

The late announcement of platforms is the main issue. Any user of the station can tell you that, and it's just not necessary, particularly not for LNR services which aren't cleaned or stocked during their time at Euston, they just come in, change ends and go out.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Just announcing sooner would surely solve an awful lot.

That has to be the obvious answer. And apart from the safety aspect, good customer service should mean that Avanti should aspire to allow passengers to board in good time - at least 10 if not 15 mins before departure. If this means changes to Avanti's operational arrangements then so be it, and not before time.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Two facts about Euston
i) People have time to kill there, so there's a need for shops - there's a 'Nandos', I guess a meal there would take at least 30 minutes.and
ii) Time is so precious to people there that it's essential that journey times are reduced even more, at vast cost for a few minutes saving.

I know it's not quite as simple as that, but there does seem to be a conflict

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two facts about Euston
i) People have time to kill there, so there's a need for shops - there's a 'Nandos', I guess a meal there would take at least 30 minutes.and
ii) Time is so precious to people there that it's essential that journey times are reduced even more, at vast cost for a few minutes saving.

I know it's not quite as simple as that, but there does seem to be a conflict

I don't see why those two conflict in a well-designed station. They don't in Manchester Piccadilly - the shops are in a sort of mini shopping centre, which doesn't stand in the way of going between the entrance and the platforms.

There are both sets of people there. The former are mostly leisure travellers on Advance fares on Avanti (but sometimes LNR). The latter are the commuters and those on walk-up fares.

 

[jon81uk]

Two facts about Euston
i) People have time to kill there, so there's a need for shops - there's a 'Nandos', I guess a meal there would take at least 30 minutes.and
ii) Time is so precious to people there that it's essential that journey times are reduced even more, at vast cost for a few minutes saving.

I know it's not quite as simple as that, but there does seem to be a conflict

If you are taking a relatively long distance train on an advance ticket, you want to be there on time, as rebooking an advance fare could be costly. So you'll aim to arrive maybe 30-45 minutes before in case there are issues on the Underground. If you get to Euston in plenty of time then you might choose to eat at a restaurant, if you arrive later you might just grab a takeaway sandwich to eat on the train. Having both options available is sensible.

 

[Merle Haggard]

If you are taking a relatively long distance train on an advance ticket, you want to be there on time, as rebooking an advance fare could be costly. So you'll aim to arrive maybe 30-45 minutes before in case there are issues on the Underground. If you get to Euston in plenty of time then you might choose to eat at a restaurant, if you arrive later you might just grab a takeaway sandwich to eat on the train. Having both options available is sensible.

Indeed, I understand that. I wonder what proportion of, for example, Euston - Birmingham passengers are travelling on advance tickets, which offer a considerable discount on the 'walk-on' fare - there certainly seem to be a lot on LNw, who presumably find the Avanti advance fares too high, and also the high usage of the food outlets, together suggesting it may even be the majority.
HS2 is aimed at the remainder, who are at present travelling at 'walk-on fare' and, of these, the ones who transfer will be prepared to pay even more. In a Venn diagram of all passengers the circle to represent the last mentioned (HS2 passengers) would be quite small i.m.o..
It's more of an HS2 logical argument, I accept.

 

[Skiddaw]

I'd suggest the main problem is the late calling of the platforms, leading to lots of people standing staring at the screens. With relatively limited concourse space, that probably causes a blockage wherever the screens happen to be.

Would queueing on the ramps also help for Avanti departures? Clearly this would need platforms to be displayed early, making last minute replatforming more tricky, and also some kind of barrier and staff enforcement so arriving passengers could get off the platform.

Yes, I agree. When I'm travelling back to Penrith from Euston I'm one of the 'staring at the screen waiting for the platform announcement' brigade (followed by the crowd-surfing trolley dash to try to be near the front of the queue at the platform entrance, especially if I'm after bagging a Standard Premium seat). I do wish they'd give you a bit more warning. It's fine if (like me) you're able-bodied and travelling lightly but it must be a right pain for anyone with luggage, mobility issues, children, etc.

The good thing about Euston station itself is that there's a sizeable outside area where you can lurk (with an eye-wateringly expensive coffee or two) whilst you're waiting. I like watching the people coming and going and I like the statue of Matthew Flinders and Trim the cat

 

[TheSmiths82]

I always arrive at Euston about two hours early then go and get something to eat at one of the many pubs on Euston Road towards Kings Cross. I then nip into Sainsbury's to buy some bits for the train. The entire area has so much to offer for the traveller with time to kill. I have even used that Nando's while waiting for a train. I think as others said as many users of Euston tend to have advanced singles, it means people get there much earlier than they would if it was any train ticket.

Apart from the bad design, I think the concourse is just far too small for the amount of people that pass through it. I often wonder if we need another major station towards Northern outskirts of London to act as a sort of over spill and as a secondary terminus in case things go badly wrong at Euston such as on Sunday. I know it will slow journeys down so it will never happen. At Manchester however you always have the option of trying to get a train at Stockport if Piccadilly was shut but I don't think Stockport could cope with being a terminus either so my idea is probably pointless.

 

[jon81uk]

Indeed, I understand that. I wonder what proportion of, for example, Euston - Birmingham passengers are travelling on advance tickets, which offer a considerable discount on the 'walk-on' fare - there certainly seem to be a lot on LNw, who presumably find the Avanti advance fares too high, and also the high usage of the food outlets, together suggesting it may even be the majority.
HS2 is aimed at the remainder, who are at present travelling at 'walk-on fare' and, of these, the ones who transfer will be prepared to pay even more. In a Venn diagram of all passengers the circle to represent the last mentioned (HS2 passengers) would be quite small i.m.o..
It's more of an HS2 logical argument, I accept.

Indeed, I agree HS2 would probably solve a lot of the issues, shame Rishi hates public transport.

 

[PeterY]

The new screens are an abject failure and should be removed. They make flow worse, not better. Any user of the station could tell them that.

But yes, just stop suppressing platforms, particularly for LNR services going from P8-11 which are designed, with seating etc, for people to arrive in small numbers over time and wait there.

I have to agree with you Bletchleyite. With the old screens people spread out and could be easily read from a distance on the concourse but with the new screens, I need to get much closer and they are shockingly bright.

 

[edwin_m]

I often wonder if we need another major station towards Northern outskirts of London to act as a sort of over spill and as a secondary terminus in case things go badly wrong at Euston such as on Sunday. I know it will slow journeys down so it will never happen.

That's essentially what Old Oak Common will do on HS2, through it's more west than north.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The advance ticket point is highly relevant, and I'm surprised it hasn't been considered by the authorities. It's inevitable that you will look to arrive earlier at your departure station if the penalty for missing your train is the cost of a walk-up ticket. A half hour delay if you're 2 mins late for a Manchester train? - no problem - I'll take a chance. £185 for a new peak time ticket? ok, now I'm making damn sure I get there in time.