Euston overcrowding concerns

[Bletchleyite]

Probably because of the shear amount of train movements, many which are running late and end up being out of sync. I think the arrival platform is planned in advance but it often never works out because of operating issues. However they should at least the the platform as soon as they know, rather than only announcing it once they open the platform. That seems to be part of the major issue, at Piccadilly they usually let you on the train 20 minutes before departure.

Platforming at Euston is very consistent outside of serious disruption and has been since the Virgin "VHF" timetable was introduced, which is nearly 20 years ago now. Before that the platforms IC trains used were a bit more random, but the Silverlink services were consistent enough that it used to be printed on a sheet of paper and stuck on the pillar in the middle of the Tube exit.

I will never understand why LNR platforms are suppressed, this only started when Network Rail took over the operation of the PIS from Virgin in the mid 2000s, before that they weren't. For Avanti it's partly because of the manual boarding checks - a single common gateline would be a good option to reduce the need.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Platforming at Euston is very consistent outside of serious disruption and has been since the Virgin "VHF" timetable was introduced, which is nearly 20 years ago now. Before that the platforms IC trains used were a bit more random, but the Silverlink services were consistent enough that it used to be printed on a sheet of paper and stuck on the pillar in the middle of the Tube exit.

I will never understand why LNR platforms are suppressed, this only started when Network Rail took over the operation of the PIS from Virgin in the mid 2000s, before that they weren't. For Avanti it's partly because of the manual boarding checks - a single common gateline would be a good option to reduce the need.

I don't really see the need / advantage of the manual boarding checks anyway.

 

[The Planner]

The platforming is done as part of the timetable offer as much as possible. It sometimes drags over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really see the need / advantage of the manual boarding checks anyway.

Umm, to reduce fare dodging? There is no gateline on platforms 4-7, 12-15 or 16.

 

[N0G83]

Platforming at Euston is very consistent outside of serious disruption and has been since the Virgin "VHF" timetable was introduced, which is nearly 20 years ago now. Before that the platforms IC trains used were a bit more random, but the Silverlink services were consistent enough that it used to be printed on a sheet of paper and stuck on the pillar in the middle of the Tube exit.

I will never understand why LNR platforms are suppressed, this only started when Network Rail took over the operation of the PIS from Virgin in the mid 2000s, before that they weren't. For Avanti it's partly because of the manual boarding checks - a single common gateline would be a good option to reduce the need.

Possibly to reduce the congestion (boarding & alighting at the same time) of pax at plats 8 to 11 narrow gate lines, and time for the train presentation staff to carry out duties?

 

[Skiddaw]

Umm, to reduce fare dodging? There is no gateline on platforms 4-7, 12-15 or 16.

But I've yet to have travelled on an Avanti train north from Euston where there haven't been regular ticket checks on the train. Is it really necessary to do manual bording ticket checks as well?

 

[bramling]

But I've yet to have travelled on an Avanti train north from Euston where there haven't been regular ticket checks on the train. Is it really necessary to do manual bording ticket checks as well?

The barrier checks will make life easier for the on-train staff by weeding out many issues before they get as far as being on the train. It someone starts getting arsey during a ticketing dispute then it is preferable for the argument to happen in the open and where there are plenty of staff about, than on the train where many people know there isn’t much staff can realistically do - especially without potentially delaying the train somewhere.

Whether this all justifies the unfortunate situation at Euston is a separate matter for debate, of course.

 

[DJ_K666]

If floorspace is an issue, I recommend the ritual sacrifice of all remaining SSP retail outlets. Then add those stupid new department screen abominations / failed GCSE project onto the bonfire.

Couldn't we ritually sacrifice the TOC management instead? Probably won't solve the crush but it'd certainly make travelling a lot more interesting and brighten up the winter evenings with some screaming.

(Rather dark) Joking aside however, really the station needs completely gutting and rearranging. Perhaps this will come with the arrival of HS2 and maybe some updated operating practices. Perhaps they're waiting for station works to begin on that, rather than doing one set of major works only to have to rip it all out again after all?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

But I've yet to have travelled on an Avanti train north from Euston where there haven't been regular ticket checks on the train. Is it really necessary to do manual bording ticket checks as well?

Exactly this and on train there is more time to actually check, manual checks at the gate are too rushed to check properly anyway. Even on the automatic gates at station my Barcode wouldn't read, then manual check let me through and when I got on the train I realised I was showing the wrong ticket anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly to reduce the congestion (boarding & alighting at the same time) of pax at plats 8 to 11 narrow gate lines

Nope, makes it worse, because instead of drip feeding passengers into the platforms you get a massive crowd both ways. This may have been one of the "concerning incidents".

and time for the train presentation staff to carry out duties?

LNR, train presentation? Occasional litter picking is the most that is ever done.

 

[gazzaa2]

The barrier checks will make life easier for the on-train staff by weeding out many issues before they get as far as being on the train. It someone starts getting arsey during a ticketing dispute then it is preferable for the argument to happen in the open and where there are plenty of staff about, than on the train where many people know there isn’t much staff can realistically do - especially without potentially delaying the train somewhere.

Whether this all justifies the unfortunate situation at Euston is a separate matter for debate, of course.

Plus on an 11 carriage train there's more space for a fare dodger to move up and down the train to evade the train manager, or just go in a locked toilet. And a lot of destinations from Euston don't have barriers/ticket checks for the Avanti service once it arrives (Lime Street/Warrington BQ/Nuneaton for example). Therefore if the checks aren't done at Euston then they just need to evade the train manager and get a free ride, a lot more would chance their arm at doing this.

 

[Richardr]

(Rather dark) Joking aside however, really the station needs completely gutting and rearranging. Perhaps this will come with the arrival of HS2 and maybe some updated operating practices. Perhaps they're waiting for station works to begin on that, rather than doing one set of major works only to have to rip it all out again after all?

Not long to wait then ...

 

[josh-j]

Would it really be all that much of a revenue difference if checks were on board? Sure it would be a bit easier to get away with it, but if the price of preventing that is everyone getting crushed in a silly last minute rush I'm not sure it's worth it!

Why can't it be a normal barriered gateline?

 

[gg1]

But I've yet to have travelled on an Avanti train north from Euston where there haven't been regular ticket checks on the train. Is it really necessary to do manual bording ticket checks as well?

I've travelled on quite a few where there have been no onboard checks, it's been like that since Virgin days.

On a handful of occasions there were no checks at all, either on board or at Euston though admittedly the last time that happened to me was a few years ago.

 

[Starmill]

The advance ticket point is highly relevant, and I'm surprised it hasn't been considered by the authorities. It's inevitable that you will look to arrive earlier at your departure station if the penalty for missing your train is the cost of a walk-up ticket. A half hour delay if you're 2 mins late for a Manchester train? - no problem - I'll take a chance. £185 for a new peak time ticket? ok, now I'm making damn sure I get there in time.

I think this point is really crucial, because some people habitually show up a full hour before booked time if they think they will incur a huge financial penalty for missing the train (which generally they will of course). Much more "free" seating (i.e. not within the pubs and cafes) needs to be provided, and more encouragement to use existing seating upstairs. Of course, a key reason not to sit upstairs is that you now can't see any of the departure screens up there. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At Euston the LNR platforms in the middle split the intercity services to either side, and if there's any logic as to which side a particular destination is served from then it's not evident to non-regulars (which is a lot more people than at Victoria). So although unlike Victoria there's a straight and reasonably logical barrier line, there are still some long walks if the train pops up on a high or low numbered platform.

This, together with the late announcement of platforms for long distance services (which often seem scheduled to depart relatively shortly) and the fair old distance from the main concourse / general waiting area to the train's doors (is any station on the GB rail network any further?)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I think this point is really crucial, because some people habitually show up a full hour before booked time if they think they will incur a huge financial penalty for missing the train (which generally they will of course).

I've had multi-hour waits in Euston with my family before to make 100% sure we get our train.

 

[Starmill]

At Euston the LNR platforms in the middle split the intercity services to either side, and if there's any logic as to which side a particular destination is served from then it's not evident to non-regulars (which is a lot more people than at Victoria). So although unlike Victoria there's a straight and reasonably logical barrier line, there are still some long walks if the train pops up on a high or low numbered platform. HS2 has helped in this by taking the very furthest platforms out of use.

Apart from London Overground only being permitted into the DC platforms, and Avanti West Coast not using the ex-NSE platforms, I don't think you can apply any meaningful logic. Even relatively minor disruption sees the booked platforms being chopped and changed all over the place.

 

[All Line Rover]

This, together with the late announcement of platforms for long distance services (which often seem scheduled to depart relatively shortly) and the fair old distance from the main concourse / general waiting area to the train's doors (is any station on the GB rail network any further?)

Some of Marylebone's platforms are further. Much further. An awful, awful station.

 

[Nippy]

Apart from London Overground only being permitted into the DC platforms, and Avanti West Coast not using the ex-NSE platforms, I don't think you can apply any meaningful logic. Even relatively minor disruption sees the booked platforms being chopped and changed all over the place.

At the moment, Avanti seem to be swapping trains relentlessly. I always try to get trains into the booked departure platform, but when trains get dumped in the station for hours on end because there is a lack of drivers it scuppers that somewhat.

 

[al78]

I think this point is really crucial, because some people habitually show up a full hour before booked time if they think they will incur a huge financial penalty for missing the train (which generally they will of course). Much more "free" seating (i.e. not within the pubs and cafes) needs to be provided, and more encouragement to use existing seating upstairs. Of course, a key reason not to sit upstairs is that you now can't see any of the departure screens up there. You couldn't make it up.

Unless someone lives in an area where transport is incredibly difficult with frequent massive delays/congestion/disruption, I think getting there that early is ridiculous. It is a railway station not an airport. If I am going on a long train journey, I want it to take less time than a TDF cyclist otherwise I will start to question the practicality of the mode of transport.

 

[Starmill]

Unless someone lives in an area where transport is incredibly difficult with frequent massive delays/congestion/disruption, I think getting there that early is ridiculous. It is a railway station not an airport. If I am going on a long train journey, I want it to take less time than a TDF cyclist otherwise I will start to question the practicality of the mode of transport.

You can think it's ridiculous, but people are still going to do it, in large numbers. The train companies could choose to allow Advance tickets to be amended up to a couple of hours after departure but they don't. If you miss your train, your ticket has no value. They could choose to allow them to be amended without a £10 fee per ticket, but they mostly don't. Therefore simple psychology says people will allow far more time than is actually necessary.

At the moment, Avanti seem to be swapping trains relentlessly. I always try to get trains into the booked departure platform, but when trains get dumped in the station for hours on end because there is a lack of drivers it scuppers that somewhat.

Yes, unfortunately Avanti's train crew situation makes it nigh on impossible to avoid.

 

[AndrewE]

Unless someone lives in an area where transport is incredibly difficult with frequent massive delays/congestion/disruption,

Unfortunately for a lot of people living out in the sticks (but "served" by Avanti) this is their daily reality...
The experience at home will affect their approach to getting to Euston barriers in plenty of time not to miss their advance-fare train!

 

[ScottGallagher]

Is there any realistic prospect of the new departure screens being dispensed with them and going back to the old area? Wasn't it originally for a trial period ?

 

[AndrewE]

Wasn't it originally for a trial period ?

A management technique I was taught to get unwelcome innovations in place, hoping that you wouldn't get called out when they proved unacceptable!

 

[Sunil_P]

Getting to the toilets is a pain when a Pendo arrives at platforms 1-3 and everybody piles on or off!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This, together with the late announcement of platforms for long distance services (which often seem scheduled to depart relatively shortly) and the fair old distance from the main concourse / general waiting area to the train's doors (is any station on the GB rail network any further?)

Manchester Picc P13/14 and Paddington's suburban platforms to name two.

 

[edwin_m]

Unless someone lives in an area where transport is incredibly difficult with frequent massive delays/congestion/disruption, I think getting there that early is ridiculous. It is a railway station not an airport. If I am going on a long train journey, I want it to take less time than a TDF cyclist otherwise I will start to question the practicality of the mode of transport.

Many people starting their journeys elsewhere in London, and either unable to get a through ticket or not aware of the protection one provides, will worry about problems on the Underground. These are rare but could easily cause an hour's delay. Perhaps part of the answer is for TOCs to allow Advances on later trains when there have been significant disruptions on the Underground?

Manchester Picc P13/14 and Paddington's suburban platforms to name two.

The high-numbered platforms at Victoria where the Brighton line fasts go from are another one, as are some platforms at Glasgow Central. But in these cases the track layout pretty much dictates which platform group a particular train will use, regular travellers will know this beforehand and will factor in the extra walking time. The maximum walking distance at Euston is similar to or less than these examples, but with the late announcement of platforms and the risk of re-platforming away from the expected platform there's that much less time to get there.

 

[Andrew1395]

They already lopped off the corner of the retail unit opposite 12-15, formerly Boots.

The issue is just how the station is operated, plus those awful new screens.

Sure, you could open it all out removing all retail and maybe times the size of the concourse by 1.5 ish, but that isn't the issue.

I was replying to the comment on floorspace and the suggestion to remove the SSP Units. If the size of the concourse is not a problem. Then start doing what we did in the 1980s. Report the train platform early. Check tickets at the top of the ramps, and queue people on the ramp. That way people are off the station Concouse, and in the right place for when the train is ready. Platforms 15-12 were more difficult to do this than 7-4, because of the narrow passageway created by the booking office block. With all trains then having slam doors the main concern was closing access to the train platform to allow departure. On platforms 11/10 and 9/8 you needed a slick operation of the barrier gates to get an 8 car 310 away. Now with automatic doors on trains, using the ramps again as a queuing space should not be a problem. The downside is people queuing for a while in the ramp. The upside - no frenzied dash across the platform. For platforms 3-1 you needed to think about how you controlled the ramp as there was no separate space for arrival train passengers. Sometimes we had to take them through gate number 1 on to Eversholt street. Not good but that’s signallers for you!

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Many people starting their journeys elsewhere in London, and either unable to get a through ticket or not aware of the protection one provides, will worry about problems on the Underground. These are rare but could easily cause an hour's delay. Perhaps part of the answer is for TOCs to allow Advances on later trains when there have been significant disruptions on the Underground?

The high-numbered platforms at Victoria where the Brighton line fasts go from are another one, as are some platforms at Glasgow Central. But in these cases the track layout pretty much dictates which platform group a particular train will use, regular travellers will know this beforehand and will factor in the extra walking time. The maximum walking distance at Euston is similar to or less than these examples, but with the late announcement of platforms and the risk of re-platforming away from the expected platform there's that much less time to get there.

If you're coming in from Kent or Surrey for example I can understand getting to Euston early, allowing for 30 mins delay on train on then 20 mins to get across on the tube.. everything going on time you can see where you'd get into Euston early.

Fine saying the protection of through tickets but if you're not a regular user of the railway you wouldn't know or wouldn't want the stress of missing the intended train.