TfGM Bus franchising

[markymark2000]

Why didn't Rotala keep the ex First Manchester depot, but move to the Arriva depot.
Wouldn't it make sense in Go North West take over the ex Arriva depot

The Arriva Bolton depot is far too small for the contracts that GoAhead won and is a good size for the contracts that Diamond won.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why didn't Rotala keep the ex First Manchester depot, but move to the Arriva depot.
Wouldn't it make sense in Go North West take over the ex Arriva depot

As @markymark2000 says, it's the respective allocations.

The Go North West allocation is over 200 vehicles at Bolton

Even at it's biggest with overflow parking, the Arriva depot at Goodwin Street (in Ribble days) had an allocation of c.80 vehicles IIRC. Simply wouldn't have the capacity to maintain the number of vehicles that Go North West has

 

[JKP]

Are they though?

I've seen plenty of (anecdotal) evidence on this forum that the service is poor, but no evidence that it is substantially worse than before TfGM took over. Nor have I seen any suggestion that it won't improve as the teething issues are sorted out.

Manchester under deregulation was hardly a bastion of high-quality bus operation - if it had been, then there would have been no support for franchising in the first place.

Agreed but then Manchester area was held back by Labour councillors back in 1985/6. Deregulation could have been better if there was dialogue between operators and the PTE back then.

 

[johncrossley]

Agreed but then Manchester area was held back by Labour councillors back in 1985/6. Deregulation could have been better if there was dialogue between operators and the PTE back then.

What kind of dialogue would have helped? The whole point of deregulation was that the operators were supposed to know best and so didn't need any help from the PTE. GMPTE facilitated competition (by accident) by cutting the fleet at deregulation, letting other operators fill the gaps and also meaning that independent operators could easily pick up former GMT buses. Then GM Buses also had to spend millions combatting competition from Bee Line.

 

[D9006]

Stagecoach opened a depot in Little Hulton for school work.

I do find it interesting Stagecoach have bought nearly 150 BZLs for Stockport when they may not be the operator there soon

It’s still not open, have a few friends who have gone there from Finches, they are working from Hyde Road , other services come from charleston or Stockport, not sure if that spelt right. They are been paid an extra £200 a week for travelling to Manchester, but his day is excessively long, leaves Wigan at 530am and lucky to be home by 730pm. I’ve told him the 200 is not even covering the hours spent hanging around in Manchester let alone fuel cost. How is this sustainable for stagecoach. One of college buses was nearly hour late start on Monday

The Bee Network has collided head on with Manchester's traffic problems and a United home game tonight.

According to bustimes tracking the 8 had no departures from the city centre between 17:02 and 18:14, there was nothing on the 10 between 16:31 and 18:02, the 35 between 17:02 and 19:18, 30 or 40 minute gaps on the V1, loads of buses running an hour late.

It might not be their fault, but whoever's in charge you can't expect passengers to stick with a service like that.

It needs to be managed by TfGM very closely to avoid this, but they do not have the staff to do it. Needs to be monitored like in London if mr burnham is so set on a London style transport system

 

[Tim33160]

It’s still not open, have a few friends who have gone there from Finches, they are working from Hyde Road , other services come from charleston or Stockport, not sure if that spelt right.

Sharston rather than Charleston. It is the depot in South Manchester that replaced Princess Road (Moss Side) when the city council wanted the land for housing.

 

[D9006]

Sharston rather than Charleston. It is the depot in South Manchester that replaced Princess Road (Moss Side) when the city council wanted the land for housing.

Thanks, I was convinced I had got it wrong, was even starting off wrong

 

[Mwanesh]

I still think route by route franchising was better. This one if you annoy the Unions a whole area is left without buses.

 

[Deerfold]

I still think route by route franchising was better. This one if you annoy the Unions a whole area is left without buses.

And, as I asked last time that was proposed (with no respoonse), how much extra dead mileage would that introduce?

 

[Mwanesh]

And, as I asked last time that was proposed (with no respoonse), how much extra dead mileage would that introduce?

The local companies in the vicinity.

 

[Deerfold]

The local companies in the vicinity.

That's not quite an answer to my question, but that's giving an advantage to those companies already owning a depot on or near the route? How is that better?

 

[lincman]

And, as I asked last time that was proposed (with no respoonse), how much extra dead mileage would that introduce?

Looking at the proposals as to which depots will be running which services, dead mileage does not appear to be an issue as some of the suggestions are mind boggling. this system does not appear to have any logic to it.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I've heard a lot of stuff about what Rotala did at Bolton before they left.... Little wonder GSW got off to a shaky start.

If there is evidence of this I think Burnham and TFGM might want to know. If nothing else they should be black listed from any future contracts if there is any valid evidence.

 

[Leyland Bus]

If there is evidence of this I think Burnham and TFGM might want to know. If nothing else they should be black listed from any future contracts if there is any valid evidence.

TfGM are well aware...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now that Bee Network has begun its official existence, which issuing body name will appear upon ENCTS cards that are now issued?

 

[Goldfish62]

Now that Bee Network has begun its official existence, which issuing body name will appear upon ENCTS cards that are now issued?

What name currently appears on them?

It would normally be the local authority issuing them, which surely hasn't changed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What name currently appears on them?

It would normally be the local authority issuing them, which surely hasn't changed.

I think the doubt occurred when the TfGM website was changed to the Bee Network website.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the doubt occurred when the TfGM website was changed to the Bee Network website.

Ah yes, I see on the website that TfGM appear to administer the concessionary travel scheme. Didn't realise that.

 

[WatcherZero]

First months performance figures.

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s29609/2023.10.26%20BNC%20Mayoral%20T1%20Update%20Slides.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

Are the Peak Vehicle Requirements for the contracted routes published somewhere? Or are those deemed to be commercially sensitive.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think they have been locally published as they wouldnt think anyone would care but bus magazines have printed them when discussing contract awards.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I dont think they have been locally published as they wouldnt think anyone would care but bus magazines have printed them when discussing contract awards.

In theory an FOI request would give the required information as ir‘s a public authority.

 

[D9006]

Why do they make a big thing about the V routes, comparing them to pre franchise figures? The V network was a tendered service pre-franchise, so wholly under TfGM control with regards to the timetable. If the service was as poor and not meeting the targets then the contract should have been reviewed. This idea that the Bee Network has improved it to 8bph is something that was always under TfGM control. They withdrew the V2 from Manchester, and now they're trying to say thanks to the the bee network that it’s been restored.

 

[WatcherZero]

It wasnt a tendered service in the traditional sense pre-franchise, First won an operating concession where operators were given a minimum specification their bids had to meet and then competed on their ‘extra’ offer (timetable enhancement, quality of vehicles, brand design) with the winner given exclusive use of the infrastructure for a specified number of years. Its similar to how the Cambridgeshire service was initially awarded. TfGM could fine them for missing punctuality targets but the services after the initial minimum service requirement (which I think was 4 bph from Leigh to Manchester and 2 bph from Atherton to Manchester but might have just been the Leigh element) were purely the concession’s to design and they could add or remove them as they pleased. The route extension to the hospital and V3/V4 were purely commercial ventures.

 

[Goldfish62]

In theory an FOI request would give the required information as ir‘s a public authority.

Yes, and I can't see how it could be refused on the basis of commercial confidentiality. Anyone with time on their hands could work it out with reference to the public timetables and Bustimes.org.

 

[GordonT]

Yes, and I can't see how it could be refused on the basis of commercial confidentiality. Anyone with time on their hands could work it out with reference to the public timetables and Bustimes.org.

Agreed. In fact the info would presumably have been freely available to anyone intending or considering lobbing in a bid for franchise(s).

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I've been asked for my ticket on the bus by an inspector.
All was in order, but I was shocked.
Is this a Bee Network thing?

 

[johncrossley]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I've been asked for my ticket on the bus by an inspector.
All was in order, but I was shocked.
Is this a Bee Network thing?

Was this on a Bee Network service? Then it is probably the right thread.

You shouldn't be shocked as ticket inspections are normal on buses in most of the developed world, including London if you look at the prosecutions thread. But they are almost unheard of on deregulated buses for some reason. They probably see ticket checks as not worth the cost.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Was this on a Bee Network service? Then it is probably the right thread.

You shouldn't be shocked as ticket inspections are normal on buses in most of the developed world, including London if you look at the prosecutions thread. But they are almost unheard of on deregulated buses for some reason. They probably see ticket checks as not worth the cost.

Technically yes and no. It was a High Peak service that runs in to Greater Manchester, and the ticket inspector worked for TfGM.
I was shocked because I have travelled on thousands of buses (including in London and other cities) and never had an inspector actually ask me for a ticket!
I'm aware of the signs warning of their existence, but never actually encountered one personally.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was this on a Bee Network service? Then it is probably the right thread.

Just an idle thought, but should the thread title now be changed to reflect that the Bee Network has now commenced and the fact that the TfGM website has now been replaced by the Bee Network website.