TfGM Bus franchising

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've heard a lot of stuff about what Rotala did at Bolton before they left.... Little wonder GSW got off to a shaky start.

Was anything illegal in what they did?

 

[domcoop7]

Was anything illegal in what they did?

It's generally the case in contracts and conveyances and leases for land and property that a distinction is made between "fixtures" and "fittings". The default rule is if you can remove it without damaging the fabric or structure or a building, the old owner can keep it when they sell up. If it's bolted down or otherwise affixed in such a way it would leave a mess or holes or damage if removed, it has to stay with the building.

Same applied when you sell a house - unless the contract says otherwise. You can take a cooker, but not a built in oven; you can take a lightbulb but not a fireplace or radiator, etc. In commercial leases there's usually an intermediate category known as "plant" (which I'd expect a bus washer to be, but not a portable pressure washer). It would be separately negotiated whether plant would come with the building or not (often just for practical reasons - a new occupier may have their own kit and not want to dispose of the existing stuff).

But in reality it depends what the contracts say.

 

[Goldfish62]

Was anything illegal in what they did?

No idea. I'm not a legal expert.

 

[Andyh82]

I've heard a lot of stuff about what Rotala did at Bolton before they left.... Little wonder GSW got off to a shaky start.

Won’t a lot of it be because Bolton was the main depot, Eccles was the small satellite depot

Now Eccles is the main (& only) depot so a lot of what Diamond North West only had at Bolton would need to be stripped out and moved to Eccles (or Preston)

 

[Tim33160]

Surely the 17/18 are Queens Road rather than Oldham?

Currently yes: but on the new contract they move to run out of Oldham - guess Oldham has space to accommodate the large number of buses need to run these routes?
Note the Bury routes 475 477 480 and 487 listed as running out of Queens Rd

 

[daodao]

Bear in mind the contract documents went out using the network as it was in (December 2020?)
Hence in Area C it includes all the "Little Gem" network numbers which have largely changed / been withdrawn.

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awarded
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

Surely area C's tender specifications in terms of routes needs to be revised in view of substantial subsequent alterations/withdrawals, particularly to subsidised services, including the award of routes 287, 288 and half of 280 to an external operator, Warrington Buses.

The Wythenshawe large zone includes nearly all the routes currently operated by Arriva (18 19 245 247 263 281 282 283/4 285/6); are they going to bid to retain these services and their existing depot?

 

[Simon Dunn]

This isn't helped by the fact that Rotala never looked after the bus washes at Bolton (both of which came from Crook Street some 20 years ago and were new several years prior to that garage closing in 2003) and is in the process of being assessed as to whether it would be better to replace it or overhaul it... Rotala also removed all the pressure washers from Bolton too.

Bus washes are like most equipment, they need to be maintained. Washing 200 buses every day 7 days per week requires regular repair and maintenance. Prior to exit, "Rotala" shared and agreed what was included and what wasn't included in the sale - this was agreed. Every Franchise operator is responsible for the procurement of the buildings contents. We offered the ability to acquire the contents, there was not dispute on ownership and this opportunity was not taken up. Items like industrial pressure washers cost £5,000.

Won’t a lot of it be because Bolton was the main depot, Eccles was the small satellite depot

Now Eccles is the main (& only) depot so a lot of what Diamond North West only had at Bolton would need to be stripped out and moved to Eccles (or Preston)

Rotala has taken on the depot from Arriva in Bolton.

I've heard a lot of stuff about what Rotala did at Bolton before they left.... Little wonder GSW got off to a shaky start.

Rotala did more than what was legally, contractually and morally obliged to do. We looked to facilitate a smooth transition.

 

[gka472l]

Surely area C's tender specifications in terms of routes needs to be revised in view of substantial subsequent alterations/withdrawals, particularly to subsidised services, including the award of routes 287, 288 and half of 280 to an external operator, Warrington Buses.

The Wythenshawe large zone includes nearly all the routes currently operated by Arriva (18 19 245 247 263 281 282 283/4 285/6); are they going to bid to retain these services and their existing depot?

No, I believe Arriva are not bidding at all, which would mean (apart from the routes from Merseyside into Wigan) that Arriva are history in Greater Manchester.....

 

[johncrossley]

No, I believe Arriva are not bidding at all, which would mean (apart from the routes from Merseyside into Wigan) that Arriva are history in Greater Manchester.....

Arriva are trying to exit the UK so franchising is really a gift for them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arriva are trying to exit the UK so franchising is really a gift for them.

DB are trying to exit the UK (passenger operations, not heard of them wanting out of Schenker), but do they actually want to close Arriva down? Thought they wanted to flog it.

Signing a new XC National Rail Contract doesn't sound like a company trying to shut down.

 

[johncrossley]

DB are trying to exit the UK (passenger operations, not heard of them wanting out of Schenker), but do they actually want to close Arriva down? Thought they wanted to flog it.

Yes they want to flog it but franchising basically means they can get rid of the assets very easily. It will be interesting if they decide to bid in the Liverpool City Region where they are currently dominant.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva are trying to exit the UK so franchising is really a gift for them.

DB are trying to exit the UK (passenger operations, not heard of them wanting out of Schenker), but do they actually want to close Arriva down? Thought they wanted to flog it.

Signing a new XC National Rail Contract doesn't sound like a company trying to shut down.

Yes they want to flog it but franchising basically means they can get rid of the assets very easily. It will be interesting if they decide to bid in the Liverpool City Region where they are currently dominant.

No @johncrossley - Arriva aren't looking to exit the UK. Deutsche Bahn, the state owned operator and owner of Arriva, are looking to divest the Arriva business via a sale. As noted on the Arriva thread, a sale to I-Squared Capital is apparently well progressed.

The operations that they have in Manchester are/were fairly minimal and disparate. About 30 vehicles rattling about in Bolton and another 40 still there in Wythenshawe. In terms of assets, they didn't own Bolton depot (still owned by Roger Jarvis of Blue Bus heritage). Not certain that Wythenshawe isn't leased as well.

As for the fleet, someone may confirm but not certain that any of the Arriva fleet transferred with the Bee Network.

Franchising may mean that you can get rid of assets easily but you're unlikely to get the net book value (i.e. what it's listed for in the accounts) and just get a market value that is often not that fair.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With regards to the matters appertaing that occurred at the immediate start of the Bee Network and its bus services, the transport authority that was behind the launch of this project spent months disseminating publicity of the launch of the project, with associated commentary in social and press media that stated how the new system would be taking control of the bus operations and providing an "all dancing, all singing"" wonderful new transport system that would be far better for the bus travelling public than what had occurred when the private bus operators were in charge of bus service proivision.

They have had months to ensure the full realisation of their aspirations and it appears that no regard was given by them to the bus driver problems that could happen when large numbers of bus drivers just did not automatically TUPE across but either left the industry to become HGV drivers at a higher rate of pay (a situation that became prevalent in the post-Covid time) or those who did not want to leave their existing employer.

 

[Tim33160]

No @johncrossley -

As for the fleet, someone may confirm but not certain that any of the Arriva fleet transferred with the Bee Network.

No Arriva buses have moved to Bee Network
No Stagecoach buses based at Wigan depot moved to Bee Network

The new Stagecoach Schools Unit at Little Hulton is not yet operational with buses on these School duties travelling from Stagecoach Manchester depots out of service to Wigan and Bolton areas

 

[Leyland Bus]

Bus washes are like most equipment, they need to be maintained. Washing 200 buses every day 7 days per week requires regular repair and maintenance. Prior to exit, "Rotala" shared and agreed what was included and what wasn't included in the sale - this was agreed. Every Franchise operator is responsible for the procurement of the buildings contents. We offered the ability to acquire the contents, there was not dispute on ownership and this opportunity was not taken up. Items like industrial pressure washers cost £5,000.


Rotala has taken on the depot from Arriva in Bolton.


Rotala did more than what was legally, contractually and morally obliged to do. We looked to facilitate a smooth transition.

This forum isn't the place to go into the details of the last days of Rotala at Bolton but I will say that whilst what you wrote is 'broadly' correct in context, it isn't necessarily what happened in totality and your very last statement was most definitely not what occurred "on the ground" and we shall leave it at that.

 

[mic]

Rosso routes in Bury and Rochdale have reverted to 4xx numbers in the franchise documents - not sure if there is a direct correlation as the routes have changed several times since Rosso numbered them into Bury Bolts and Rochdale Runners

AREA B 24 March 2024

Awarded to Stagecoach
Middleton Large 56 112 114 115 117 118 119 125 129 156 171 172 415 469
Oldham Large 17 18 57 59 81 82 83 84 180 181 182 183 184 348 350 402 403 409 411 425 426 558
Queens Road Large 1 2 3 33 41 52 53 67 90 93 94 95 97 98 100 135 149 475 477 480 487

Awarded to Diamond Oldham Small 151 159

Awarded to First: Rochdale A small 6 434 435 440 442 447 450 451 457 458 461 462
Rochdale B small 467 468

Bear in mind the contract documents went out using the network as it was in (December 2020?)
Hence in Area C it includes all the "Little Gem" network numbers which have largely changed / been withdrawn.

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awarded
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

so i take it the 184 is returning to Oldham depot

 

[Park47515]

Currently yes: but on the new contract they move to run out of Oldham - guess Oldham has space to accommodate the large number of buses need to run these routes?
Note the Bury routes 475 477 480 and 487 listed as running out of Queens Rd

Seems strange to run them dead from Oldham, when Queens Road is about two min away from Rochdale Road.

 

[RELL6L]

Seems strange to run them dead from Oldham, when Queens Road is about two min away from Rochdale Road.

And Middleton is on the routes!

 

[978wta]

Rosso routes in Bury and Rochdale have reverted to 4xx numbers in the franchise documents - not sure if there is a direct correlation as the routes have changed several times since Rosso numbered them into Bury Bolts and Rochdale Runners

AREA B 24 March 2024

Awarded to Stagecoach
Middleton Large 56 112 114 115 117 118 119 125 129 156 171 172 415 469
Oldham Large 17 18 57 59 81 82 83 84 180 181 182 183 184 348 350 402 403 409 411 425 426 558
Queens Road Large 1 2 3 33 41 52 53 67 90 93 94 95 97 98 100 135 149 475 477 480 487

Awarded to Diamond Oldham Small 151 159

Awarded to First: Rochdale A small 6 434 435 440 442 447 450 451 457 458 461 462
Rochdale B small 467 468

Bear in mind the contract documents went out using the network as it was in (December 2020?)
Hence in Area C it includes all the "Little Gem" network numbers which have largely changed / been withdrawn.

AREA C January 2025 Yet to be awarded
Hyde Road Large 15 38 42 42A 42B 42C 74 76 142 147 201 202 203 205 250 253 256 374
Sharston Large 43 50 85 86 101 102 111 143
Stockport Large 11 23 25 191 192 197 314 322 323 325 327 328 330 358 374 378 384
Tameside Large 7 216 217 219 221 230 231 237 336 346
Wythenshawe Large 18 19 150 245 247 263 281 282 284 286 287 313 368 370
Stockport Small 364 364 375
Tameside A Small 335 339 341 342 345 387 396
Tameside B Small 343 356
Trafford Small 44 84 254 260 261 262 280 288

Seems odd to have 17+18 running out of Oldham, it’s miles off route compared to its current queens rd depot.

 

[markymark2000]

Seems odd to have 17+18 running out of Oldham, it’s miles off route compared to its current queens rd depot.

We have to remember, TFGM are a new organisation with lots of new staff, give them time to learn the geography of their operating area first. Oh no, my mistake, they have been around for donkeys years and full of supposed professionals being paid big money and they can't even work out basic things like what is an ideal depot to run a route. This is exactly why it should have been done as route by route franchising, not by depot as evidently, by depot we have stupid people making stupid decision with zero accountability because Burnham won't have a bad word said about his beloved network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.... because Burnham won't have a bad word said about his beloved network.

He doesn't need to have bad words said by him, as the general bus travelling public are already saying them.

 

[py_megapixel]

He doesn't need to have bad words said by him, as the general bus travelling public are already saying them.

Are they though?

I've seen plenty of (anecdotal) evidence on this forum that the service is poor, but no evidence that it is substantially worse than before TfGM took over. Nor have I seen any suggestion that it won't improve as the teething issues are sorted out.

Manchester under deregulation was hardly a bastion of high-quality bus operation - if it had been, then there would have been no support for franchising in the first place.

 

[Deerfold]

We have to remember, TFGM are a new organisation with lots of new staff, give them time to learn the geography of their operating area first. Oh no, my mistake, they have been around for donkeys years and full of supposed professionals being paid big money and they can't even work out basic things like what is an ideal depot to run a route. This is exactly why it should have been done as route by route franchising, not by depot as evidently, by depot we have stupid people making stupid decision with zero accountability because Burnham won't have a bad word said about his beloved network.

Wouldn't route by route franchising end up with more routes run from less than ideal depots?

 

[Leyland Bus]

We have to remember, TFGM are a new organisation with lots of new staff, give them time to learn the geography of their operating area first. Oh no, my mistake, they have been around for donkeys years and full of supposed professionals being paid big money and they can't even work out basic things like what is an ideal depot to run a route. This is exactly why it should have been done as route by route franchising, not by depot as evidently, by depot we have stupid people making stupid decision with zero accountability because Burnham won't have a bad word said about his beloved network.

Perhaps you should write to them and tell them you're perfect for the top job, you clearly can do the job better than them and know you're onions... the first part of the network is barely a month old and it's always the same rhetoric... Come back in 2026 and tell us what you think of it and if it's absolutely rubbish, then you'll have been right... Alot will happen between now and 2026, so may'be just wait and see eh?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are they though?

I've seen plenty of (anecdotal) evidence on this forum that the service is poor, but no evidence that it is substantially worse than before TfGM took over. Nor have I seen any suggestion that it won't improve as the teething issues are sorted out.

Manchester under deregulation was hardly a bastion of high-quality bus operation - if it had been, then there would have been no support for franchising in the first place.

I have been on Bolton bus station this week and spoke to a number of people at different parts there and three out of every four were not happy. One woman in her 50' who is a daily bus user complained that promises of a better bus service just had not happened and on her route, some scheduled buses were missing.

 

[andrewbowden]

I have been on Bolton bus station this week and spoke to a number of people at different parts there and three out of every four were not happy. One woman in her 50' who is a daily bus user complained that promises of a better bus service just had not happened and on her route, some scheduled buses were missing.

Did you travel by train in the early days of Virgin Trains? I did. It was terrible. Old carriages that were dirty and smelly. Constant delays - once took me seven hours to get from Manchester to London. Good luck ever finding a member of staff onboard. When things went to pot, they went into hiding. Privatisation! Promised so much and it was terrible! You could stand on any platform and four out of four people would tell you how bad it was!

Years later, the same story with the early days of London Overground.

You don't, can't fix decades of problems overnight. It's impossible. It takes time. Three out of four people at Bolton bus station can dream that the Bee Network will miraculously solve all problems overnight. Well sorry, it's pretty much impossible. And it wouldn't matter who was mayor. It wouldn't matter if TfGM completely replaced all their key staff with people from this forum. The situation would be the same.

The truth is it will take time. Sorry. That's just how it is.

 

[markymark2000]

Wouldn't route by route franchising end up with more routes run from less than ideal depots?

Not necessarily If every depot remained in the exact same place as now and with the exact same operators owning those depots, there is potential for some of that to happen however with a logical cap on the percentage of routes which can be ran by one operator, you would end up with changes to the depots possibly more of them, smaller ones, or run by new operators. It would be almost a dead cert to end up with the 18 run from flaming Oldham though in any case, or Brookhouse 10 run by Bolton (that would be an Eccles or Manchester Central depot).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did you travel by train in the early days of Virgin Trains? I did. It was terrible. Old carriages that were dirty and smelly. Constant delays - once took me seven hours to get from Manchester to London. Good luck ever finding a member of staff onboard. When things went to pot, they went into hiding. Privatisation! Promised so much and it was terrible! You could stand on any platform and four out of four people would tell you how bad it was!

Years later, the same story with the early days of London Overground.

Not sure if the viewpoint on train travel by Virgin Trains is off topic on a thread title that discusses TfGM bus franchising.

At the age of 78, I experienced rail travel on non-compartment stock in the early 1950s on 6-a-side seating that absolutely did nothing for the legs of schoolboys of an early age in short trousers. I am sure that some of those carriages were of Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway vintage.

 

[andrewbowden]

Not sure if the viewpoint on train travel by Virgin Trains is off topic on a thread title that discusses TfGM bus franchising.

I mentioned it not to deliberately go off topic. I mentioned it because I felt it an relatable example of how change doesn't happen miraculously overnight.

There seems to be an expectation from some that change on the Bee Network can happen overnight. Examples from the history of public transport history says otherwise. I am sure there are similar bus examples.

We could not mention these examples from history for the sake of having a "pure" on topic thread. Maybe we should. But if we did we would basically have some people going "it takes time" and others going "Burnham is incompetent because change hasn't happened overnight". And where does that get us? Going round in circles until a moderator jumps in to stop it.

That's why I mentioned it. I will say no more about it

 

[Simon75]

Why didn't Rotala keep the ex First Manchester depot, but move to the Arriva depot.
Wouldn't it make sense in Go North West take over the ex Arriva depot