TfGM Bus franchising

[heathrowrail]

Fair enough. To be fair, it sounds like a good number given the operation and seeing the desperation of the agencies to get staff.

Now, just imagine if Burnham hadn't made a complete hash of this franchising and done it the London way, staff shortages would have been significantly lower, independents would have been included (note London has Uno and Sullivan's running TFL routes) and with more companies bidding, it would have meant cheaper contracts. Staff could have them stayed with their employer if they wanted to or gone to other firms. Instead Burnham has managed to get rid of 3 depots and change the ownership of 2 depots as well as rid 2 cross border operators off services (WOB & Hattons), expected all of the drivers to happily cross over to GoAhead and it means there is a shortage of 360 drivers short. Would never have happend if they went down the London franchising style or left it as it was.

Then you have Labour banging on that railway franchising is bad etc. The whole lot of them and this vanity project is an utter joke.

 

[mangad]

Bolton depot was sold to Diamond years before franchising.

Yes, but the route to franchising was already in motion by the time they bought it. Andy Burnham announced the intention to do it in late 2017.

Both Go Ahead and Rotala will have known this when they bought their respective bits of First Manchester.

Of course Rotala was involved in attempts to block franchising as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The electric buses in Stockport transfer to TfGM ownership when Tranche 3 starts for a small residual remuneration, their purchase was partly funded by TfGM grants.

Will the "small residual remuneration" stated above bear any comparison financially to the "TfGM grants"?

 

[WatcherZero]

Usually with these where TfGM has sponsored electric buses in the past they pay the difference between the diesel and electric models manufacturer sticker prices while the bus operator pays as if they were purchasing a diesel vehicle. I dont know if the residual value calculation by the independent valuer will reflect the equity TfGM hold in it.

 

[johncrossley]

Yes, but the route to franchising was already in motion by the time they bought it. Andy Burnham announced the intention to do it in late 2017.

Both Go Ahead and Rotala will have known this when they bought their respective bits of First Manchester.

They knew franchising was happening but they thought that London style route by route franchising would be the method.

Of course Rotala was involved in attempts to block franchising as well.

Because they were unhappy with the method of franchising! They only started to block it when they realised they had made a huge mistake.

 

[GCH100]

Stagecoach opened a depot in Little Hulton for school work.

I do find it interesting Stagecoach have bought nearly 150 BZLs for Stockport when they may not be the operator there soon

The BZL's were funded by Government / GMCA (Greater Manchester Combined Authority) on the basis they will pass to what ever operator wins the franchise. They will not be owned by Stagecoach; Stagecoach will merely be an operator of them. Although they were ordered by Stagecoach, they will likely all be delivered in Bee Network Livery and with Bee Network interiors.

 

[158756]

The Bee Network has collided head on with Manchester's traffic problems and a United home game tonight.

According to bustimes tracking the 8 had no departures from the city centre between 17:02 and 18:14, there was nothing on the 10 between 16:31 and 18:02, the 35 between 17:02 and 19:18, 30 or 40 minute gaps on the V1, loads of buses running an hour late.

It might not be their fault, but whoever's in charge you can't expect passengers to stick with a service like that.

 

[Mwanesh]

The evidence so far is that franchised operations have suffered less from staff shortages. London and Greater Manchester have both gone to great effort to find staff from outside their areas, whereas deregulated bus operators simply make cuts and/or have cancellations because of the lack of financial sanctions.

I would doubt that. Agency drivers are working for nearly all operators. You cant tell the difference because they are all in uniform. Look for job advert for some areas you will see the agencies busy

 

[mangad]

They knew franchising was happening but they thought that London style route by route franchising would be the method.

Indeed. And one of the things about assumptions is that your assumptions may be wrong.

 

[cnjb8]

The BZL's were funded by Government / GMCA on the basis they will pass to what ever operator wins the franchise, they will not be owned by Stagecoach, Stagecoach will merely be an operator of them, though they were ordered by Stagecoach, they will likely all be delivered in Bee Network Livery and with Bee Network interiors.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[M60lad]

Last night didn't help with some roads being closed for the Conservative Party Conference either, also the away fans were walked to Old Trafford which added to the problems with traffic backed up in virtually all directions, I heard of queues all the way back to Salford Shopping Centre for traffic heading to Manchester and also the full length of Regent Road.

Checking BusTimes.org for services from Salford direction shows them running heavily delayed into Manchester, most of them were getting into Manchester well over an hour late meaning due to drivers hours they couldn't run the return journey.

It was similar to be honest on Saturday evening with buses running on time for most of their journey only to be hit with heavy traffic from Salford Central station onwards, to be honest I haven't seen Saturday evening traffic as bad as it was last Saturday for a while now.

 

[158756]

Last night didn't help with some roads being closed for the Conservative Party Conference either, also the away fans were walked to Old Trafford which added to the problems with traffic backed up in virtually all directions, I heard of queues all the way back to Salford Shopping Centre for traffic heading to Manchester and also the full length of Regent Road.

Checking BusTimes.org for services from Salford direction shows them running heavily delayed into Manchester, most of them were getting into Manchester well over an hour late meaning due to drivers hours they couldn't run the return journey.

It was similar to be honest on Saturday evening with buses running on time for most of their journey only to be hit with heavy traffic from Salford Central station onwards, to be honest I haven't seen Saturday evening traffic as bad as it was last Saturday for a while now.

No football today but still a fair few problems reported this evening. It's that traffic in the city centre that Burnham really needs to do something about. Franchising won't magically make the queues disappear.

Are GNW (Bee Network) doing anything different with their rosters that's causing them to run out of hours apart from just being short staffed? There have been so many complaints of buses running around not in service, including a whole bunch of them leaving the city last night without picking up any passengers, presumably to get back to the depot all the way out in Bolton.

I think it's also clear that they just don't have the resources to operate the service. It's not just routes into the city centre that are affected it's stuff around Wigan and Bolton as well. I would really question why they committed to so many timetable changes. It wasn't like Burnham promised increased frequencies on day 1, it was announced relatively last minute when they must have known they were never going to have enough drivers.

 

[asw22]

Unfortinately without bus priority then the bus gets caught up in traffic.
On my 2 hour bus journey each way yesterday (instead of 30 minute train journey) the bus was fast along bus lanes then got stuck in traffic at the end.
Throw in train strikes and then even with working from home the traffic gets worse, the buses and roads get busier, and bus reliability suffers (irrespective of owner).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think it's also clear that they just don't have the resources to operate the service. It's not just routes into the city centre that are affected it's stuff around Wigan and Bolton as well. I would really question why they committed to so many timetable changes. It wasn't like Burnham promised increased frequencies on day 1, it was announced relatively last minute when they must have known they were never going to have enough drivers.

I'm a bit confused as to who you're referring to as "they", as it seems that it could be Go NW or TfGM?

TfGM has uplifted the frequencies/resources required - I assume that's so an early "win" for franchising can be declared. Of course, it was then left to the operators (GNW and Rotala) to ensure they had sufficient staff to operate, and hence the League of Nations from across the Go Ahead empire. They'll be hoping that is a short term measure (it's clearly not a long term solution) and that sufficient new drivers are passing through the driving school in due course.

It may also be the case (and this often happens) that you have people who absolutely commit to transfer over under TUPE. However, they then (and it is their choice) elect to stay with their original employer.

Unfortinately without bus priority then the bus gets caught up in traffic.
On my 2 hour bus journey each way yesterday (instead of 30 minute train journey) the bus was fast along bus lanes then got stuck in traffic at the end.
Throw in train strikes and then even with working from home the traffic gets worse, the buses and roads get busier, and bus reliability suffers (irrespective of owner).

Which is what I've been banging on about for ages

 

[Goldfish62]

It may also be the case (and this often happens) that you have people who absolutely commit to transfer over under TUPE. However, they then (and it is their choice) elect to stay with their original employer.

I am told this is what happened re supervisors Diamond to GNW, which had a significant contribution to the chaos over the first few days and why you had gaggles of buses and drivers sat around not allocated.

 

[riceuten]

The Bee Network has collided head on with Manchester's traffic problems and a United home game tonight.

According to bustimes tracking the 8 had no departures from the city centre between 17:02 and 18:14, there was nothing on the 10 between 16:31 and 18:02, the 35 between 17:02 and 19:18, 30 or 40 minute gaps on the V1, loads of buses running an hour late.

It might not be their fault, but whoever's in charge you can't expect passengers to stick with a service like that.

I fail to see what a different arrangement of service provision would have made in this case. Would the glorious private sector have helicoptered buses in from elsewhere ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I fail to see what a different arrangement of service provision would have made in this case. Would the glorious private sector have helicoptered buses in from elsewhere ?

Not being an aviation enthusiast, what type of helicopter in current use can currently transport large items such as buses?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I fail to see what a different arrangement of service provision would have made in this case. Would the glorious private sector have helicoptered buses in from elsewhere ?

In fairness, @158756 did say

It might not be their fault, but whoever's in charge you can't expect passengers to stick with a service like that.

Don't think they were suggesting that a private sector operation wouldn't have had the same issue.

Then again, isn't that the point... The real issue isn't the colour of the bus, of the ability to have through ticketing like what you have in <insert German or Dutch regional area here> or who plans the network but the lack of bus priority that has been ignored over many years against a backdrop of increasing traffic levels.

 

[riceuten]

the lack of bus priority that has been ignored over many years against a backdrop of increasing traffic levels.

Fiercely resisted by central government and by sundry Clarksons countrywide.

 

[johncrossley]

I fail to see what a different arrangement of service provision would have made in this case. Would the glorious private sector have helicoptered buses in from elsewhere ?

It still is the private sector. If we were on boards.ie, some people would probably criticise recent franchising of some Dublin city routes but instead suggest that whatever problem being discussed wouldn't have occurred if it was still publicly owned and run.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It still is the private sector. If we were on boards.ie, some people would probably criticise recent franchising of some Dublin city routes but instead suggest that whatever problem being discussed wouldn't have occurred if it was still publicly owned and run.

I am really surprised to find there are still people around who have some strange belief that the Bee Network is a totally public operation in all respects.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Fiercely resisted by central government and by sundry Clarksons countrywide.

It is now but for the last 25-30 years?

 

[riceuten]

I am really surprised to find there are still people around who have some strange belief that the Bee Network is a totally public operation in all respects.

I've never thought that, but

a) this is a completely different model of franchising
b) people are blaming it for delays - delays that would have persisted if we had the free for all that existed pre-Bee Network

It is now but for the last 25-30 years?

Yes, since 2010 anyway. Compare how much money has been sunk into roads and motorways and on public transport

 

[Andyh82]

I fail to see what a different arrangement of service provision would have made in this case. Would the glorious private sector have helicoptered buses in from elsewhere ?

No but previously the private company would be blamed for the gap in service, and if they contacted the mayor, he would add it to the list of reasons why buses have to be brought into public control

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, since 2010 anyway. Compare how much money has been sunk into roads and motorways and on public transport

The reality is that there has been a focus on Metrolink (and I'm not against that) and that buses have been the poor relation in many respects. The local authorities and GMPTE have had the opportunity to improve the situation over the last 25-30 years. Now we have Social Media and the foil hatters railing against 15 min cities and Clean Air Zones, it won't be that easy. Still, it's over to Andy Burnham to sort now.

 

[JKP]

The reality is that there has been a focus on Metrolink (and I'm not against that) and that buses have been the poor relation in many respects. The local authorities and GMPTE have had the opportunity to improve the situation over the last 25-30 years. Now we have Social Media and the foil hatters railing against 15 min cities and Clean Air Zones, it won't be that easy. Still, it's over to Andy Burnham to sort now.

What is a foil hatter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is a foil hatter?

Tin-foil hatter - a conspiracy theorist. It comes from the idea that they might wear a foil hat so as to protect their brain from the 5G signal the Government is using to control them via their COVID vaccine, or somesuch utter tripe.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Tin-foil hatter - a conspiracy theorist. It comes from the idea that they might wear a foil hat so as to protect their brain from the 5G signal the Government is using to control them via their COVID vaccine, or somesuch utter tripe.

Indeed, many conspiracy theorists have found a home on this website over the years who hold "unusual" beliefs on a number of subjects...

 

[Halwynd]

On my last couple of journeys, and Inspector (probably older terminology for the job!) has been riding with the driver - checking timekeeping, route-learning possibly...

Yesterday I returned home on a double decker (which I haven't previously see on my 635 route) with leather seats - or are they Old English Vinyl? - well they were clean and comfortable and it was quite nostalgic to go and sit upstairs again - I think I was in short trousers the last time!

Another bus I used last week, a blue and red single-decker with Bee Network branding (apologies, I'm not up to date with bus types), had extremely comfortable red seats... it's all come as a bit of a shock to find my local bus service is more reliable, more punctual and more comfortable than the Northern Trains service I previously used, and it's somewhat restored my faith in public transport.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

a blue and red single-decker with Bee Network branding (apologies, I'm not up to date with bus types), had extremely comfortable red seats...

Sounds to me like an-ex Morebus Enviro 200 (see attached image)

Go North West Alexander Dennis Enviro 200MMC L245 HF18 CHX

Explore josh83680's 27787 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Image is of a blue and red single-decker (ex-Morebus livery) with Bee Network branding.