Go North East

[Megafuss]

Surely the school buses which they can regain the money from penalties should be higher priority than some villages. I understand that some areas are cut off but kids education should and must be a higher priority.

Arriva and Stagecoach won't be doing anything as they literally have 0 driver's. The extra work at Walkergate and the Jesmond / Blyth fiasco have left both short without taking more work. Not to mention they have no spare vehicles to actually to do it anyway. Redcar is cancelling services due to engineering issues as it is.

100% there is resource in the North East to provide a small number of Cinderella services in T&W, even if it's just between school runs for example. It just comes down to where you decide to put that resource and how you deal with the inevitable "how come they have a bus" questions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they focussed on reduced timetables for specific routes where those routes are the only bus access to certain communities, and put it out to tender route by route, they’d probably have much more luck.

Nobody has any spare capacity. Certainly not in the morning peak, which coincides with schools services.

I also fundamentally disagree that Nexus should be spending taxpayer money on running strike-breaking services.

The lack of services in these communities is all on Go North East, and Go’s commercial decision to not offer a pay deal which is satisfactory to their staff.

 

[DanNCL]

Nobody has any spare capacity. Certainly not in the morning peak, which coincides with schools services.

I also fundamentally disagree that Nexus should be spending taxpayer money on running strike-breaking services.

The lack of services in these communities is all on Go North East, and Go’s commercial decision to not offer a pay deal which is satisfactory to their staff.

In other words sod the passengers they don’t matter.

With all due respect, you’re entitled to your political views, but your political views do not constitute a reason for Nexus to ignore their obligations to the community.

The reason why there isn’t any buses shouldn’t have any relevance to the obligation to ensure people aren’t left isolated. That’s the whole reason services are secured in the first place and if GNE aren’t operating their contracted services then it absolutely is the correct thing for Nexus and the two county councils to re-tender them to other operators. Some of the independents do have capacity to provide a limited amount of help.

We’ve gone through this several times. The blame cannot all be put on GNE. Unite are demanding something that they know full well isn’t going to happen. Public sympathy is very low. Turnout at the picket line is decreasing by the day. Even some of the local Labour politicians who are usually staunchly pro union are against this strike. People are missing hospital appointments. Students can’t get to college and are now at risk of failing their A Levels or BTECs. People can’t get to work and are now at risk of losing their jobs, and ironically some of those will be Unite members themselves.
All of this because Unite have convinced their members that a 10% pay rise is unreasonable.

As useless as Featham and Maxfield are and yes a lot of the blame does lie with them, Unite aren’t exactly being reasonable either.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The reason why there isn’t any buses shouldn’t have any relevance to the obligation to ensure people aren’t left isolated.

Buses in some areas are not running because, quite simply, the commercial supplier of a commercial service is in dispute with its employees.

Taxpayers should not be expected to foot the bill because a private commercial business has made the conscious commercial decision not to pay its staff an amount that its staff deem acceptable to end the dispute.

If Nexus were able to send the bill to Go North East I may take a different view.

It is regrettable that Go North East’s customers can’t buy its services whilst there is a dispute going on. Perhaps the management of Go North East ought to reconsider their commercial decisions. Perhaps you ought to be demanding they do so rather than demanding the taxpayer foots the bill for intervening in a dispute between a private company and its staff.

 

[Snex]

In other words sod the passengers they don’t matter.

With all due respect, you’re entitled to your political views, but your political views do not constitute a reason for Nexus to ignore their obligations to the community.

The reason why there isn’t any buses shouldn’t have any relevance to the obligation to ensure people aren’t left isolated. That’s the whole reason services are secured in the first place and if GNE aren’t operating their contracted services then it absolutely is the correct thing for Nexus and the two county councils to re-tender them to other operators. Some of the independents do have capacity to provide a limited amount of help.

We’ve gone through this several times. The blame cannot all be put on GNE. Unite are demanding something that they know full well isn’t going to happen. Public sympathy is very low. Turnout at the picket line is decreasing by the day. Even some of the local Labour politicians who are usually staunchly pro union are against this strike. People are missing hospital appointments. Students can’t get to college and are now at risk of failing their A Levels or BTECs. People can’t get to work and are now at risk of losing their jobs, and ironically some of those will be Unite members themselves.
All of this because Unite have convinced their members that a 10% pay rise is unreasonable.

As useless as Featham and Maxfield are and yes a lot of the blame does lie with them, Unite aren’t exactly being reasonable either.

The blame 100% can be put onto GNE. It's not Arriva's fault that buses aren't running. It's not Nexus' fault buses aren't running. It's one company, and one company only GoNorthEast. Strikes are a last resort, blaming the union for this is laughable.

Nexus should not be breaking strike action to bail out a commercial operators problems. It's just wrong, the same the bus operators shouldn't be bailing out the Metro when they have their quite regular strikes.

Instead of looking at Nexus, why not throw the blame onto Arriva, Stagecoach and the local independents for not running services competing on the corridors which aren't running. At the end of the day there's nothing stopping them... You seem to be blaming everyone else other than GoAhead for this so might aswell throw them under the bus aswell.

On tendered work, GoNorthEast have barely any tendered work as they've lost it all, so not sure what tendered work they're going to be retendering. Instead of blaming everyone under the sun for why there's no buses in Ouston today, maybe blame the company who's meant to run them and hopefully when the franchising comes along, this will be considered but we all know it won't, as per usual.

 

[baza585]

Nobody has any spare capacity. Certainly not in the morning peak, which coincides with schools services.

I also fundamentally disagree that Nexus should be spending taxpayer money on running strike-breaking services.

The lack of services in these communities is all on Go North East, and Go’s commercial decision to not offer a pay deal which is satisfactory to their staff.

Nexus has a duty to provide services fulfilling a social need. That social need didn't disappear when the GNE drivers walked out. I have no view on the rights and wrongs of the dispute, but Nexus still has that statutory duty and has to try to meet it within it's means.

If that involves paying an indie to run a particular service, so be it.

Are you saying that if our regular Tesco went on strike, we shouldn't buy food or wine from another supermarket?

 

[jkkne]

Nexus has a duty to provide services fulfilling a social need. That social need didn't disappear when the GNE drivers walked out. I have no view on the rights and wrongs of the dispute, but Nexus still has that statutory duty and has to try to meet it within it's means.

If that involves paying an indie to run a particular service, so be it.

Are you saying that if our regular Tesco went on strike, we shouldn't buy food or wine from another supermarket?

No they don't have a duty to do anything. They fulfill the social need with their tendered and taxibus services.

The comparison to Tesco doesn't really work. There are alternatives to Tesco. Multiple from corner shops to other suppliers.

With the lack of school services during half term it looks like (from bustimes) extra resource has gone into the H, DFDS and North Tyneside nexus contracts today

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nexus has a duty to provide services fulfilling a social need.

There’s actually no obligation on local authorities to subsidise any bus services if they don’t want to (some scholars services excepted).

In any case, the reason why some buses aren’t running is because a completely private company is in dispute with its staff. That dispute is for the private company and its staff to resolve. It certainly isn’t for Nexus to use taxpayer money to pay that private company’s competitors to run services instead.

Are you saying that if our regular Tesco went on strike, we shouldn't buy food or wine from another supermarket?

You can buy transport services from any number of other operators in the north east. Nothing stopping you at all. It’s only Go who are failing to provide a service.

 

[northern506]

No they don't have a duty to do anything. They fulfill the social need with their tendered and taxibus services.

The comparison to Tesco doesn't really work. There are alternatives to Tesco. Multiple from corner shops to other suppliers.

With the lack of school services during half term it looks like (from bustimes) extra resource has gone into the H, DFDS and North Tyneside nexus contracts today

All of those services were operating during school time anyway.

The 335/351/359 are operated by agency drivers, an arrangement made before the strikes. They must remain on those services and cannot operate any other services.

 

[jkkne]

All of those services were operating during school time anyway.

The 335/351/359 are operated by agency drivers, an arrangement made before the strikes. They must remain on those services and cannot operate any other services.

I saw they were running they just seem to have more vehicles on them today. They're still advertising the Fireworks Shuttle for Saturday, wonder if that'll be office staff or the likes of L&G, A-Line and JH sub contracted out

 

[DanNCL]

Buses in some areas are not running because, quite simply, the commercial supplier of a commercial service is in dispute with its employees.

Taxpayers should not be expected to foot the bill because a private commercial business has made the conscious commercial decision not to pay its staff an amount that its staff deem acceptable to end the dispute.

If Nexus were able to send the bill to Go North East I may take a different view.

It is regrettable that Go North East’s customers can’t buy its services whilst there is a dispute going on. Perhaps the management of Go North East ought to reconsider their commercial decisions. Perhaps you ought to be demanding they do so rather than demanding the taxpayer foots the bill for intervening in a dispute between a private company and its staff.

I haven't at any point suggested that Nexus should step in to replace commercial GNE routes. It would absolutely be wrong for Nexus to step in to replace routes like the 21.
I've said that Nexus and the County Councils should be intervening on secured routes that they contract to GNE, by re-tendering them to an operator that is actually capable of operating them. Secured routes are secured for a reason, because they're essential.

The blame 100% can be put onto GNE. It's not Arriva's fault that buses aren't running. It's not Nexus' fault buses aren't running. It's one company, and one company only GoNorthEast. Strikes are a last resort, blaming the union for this is laughable.

Nexus should not be breaking strike action to bail out a commercial operators problems. It's just wrong, the same the bus operators shouldn't be bailing out the Metro when they have their quite regular strikes.

Instead of looking at Nexus, why not throw the blame onto Arriva, Stagecoach and the local independents for not running services competing on the corridors which aren't running. At the end of the day there's nothing stopping them... You seem to be blaming everyone else other than GoAhead for this so might aswell throw them under the bus aswell.

On tendered work, GoNorthEast have barely any tendered work as they've lost it all, so not sure what tendered work they're going to be retendering. Instead of blaming everyone under the sun for why there's no buses in Ouston today, maybe blame the company who's meant to run them and hopefully when the franchising comes along, this will be considered but we all know it won't, as per usual.

The blame sits with two parties - GNE and Unite. Unite encouraged their members to reject a 10% pay rise, they're not exactly being reasonable themselves and are rightly being criticised for it by a lot of the impacted people. Some people on these forums don't seem to be able to understand that Unions aren't always right.

As for not blaming GNE, part of the post you quoted from me very specifically mentions that Featham and Maxfield are largely responsible. Featham and Maxfield are Managing Director and Business Director at GNE respectively.

A lot of routes that GNE previously ran commercially are now tendered as GNE pulled the plug on them last year. The vast majority of them stayed with GNE as tendered routes after GNE ceased operating them commercially. In Chester-le-Street alone there's at least four such routes - 25, 28, 29 and 34. They lost two more routes they pulled the plug on to other operators in the tenders - the 71 is now with Gateshead Central and the 725 (split from the 25) is now with Weardale. There's many others all across the region that are secured after GNE made the decision last year to cease running them commercially and the vast majority of those are with GNE now as tendered routes. The fact that they were once commercial routes is irrelevant, they're secured routes now and it's the responsibility of Nexus and the County Councils to ensure that buses operate on secured routes. They're not exactly 'secured' if the company contracted to run them isn't running them...

Nexus has a duty to provide services fulfilling a social need. That social need didn't disappear when the GNE drivers walked out. I have no view on the rights and wrongs of the dispute, but Nexus still has that statutory duty and has to try to meet it within it's means.

If that involves paying an indie to run a particular service, so be it.

Exactly.

There’s actually no obligation on local authorities to subsidise any bus services if they don’t want to (some scholars services excepted).

In any case, the reason why some buses aren’t running is because a completely private company is in dispute with its staff. That dispute is for the private company and its staff to resolve. It certainly isn’t for Nexus to use taxpayer money to pay that private company’s competitors to run services instead.

It's long established practice that Nexus will ensure that no unserved bus stop is more than 400 metres away from a bus stop that has a service. It might not be legislated that Nexus has to do so but it definitely is Nexus policy. The two County Councils have their own policies which I'm not 100% sure on but both of them have an established practice of going beyond the minimum legal requirement.

The dispute isn't Nexus' responsibility in the sense that it's not for them to resolve the differences between GNE and Unite. But in the case of secured services it absolutely is in order for Nexus to use taxpayer money to pay GNE's competitors to run a service instead. The money does indirectly come out of GNE's pocket as it's the same money that would have been paid to them instead. Nexus secures the services and it's ultimately their responsibility to make sure they run, regardless who runs them.

You can buy transport services from any number of other operators in the north east. Nothing stopping you at all.

That is simply not true for large parts of the region unless you're counting taxi firms as 'other operators'. Even then it's still not accurate as many can't afford to use taxis.

All of those services were operating during school time anyway.

In other words as it's half term GNE are sending their managers on holiday for a week instead of splitting them between the driving cab and the negotiating table like they should be.

To my knowledge there have been no further talks between GNE and Unite since Friday's vote.

 

[grant1200]

Nobody has any spare capacity. Certainly not in the morning peak, which coincides with schools services.

I also fundamentally disagree that Nexus should be spending taxpayer money on running strike-breaking services.

The lack of services in these communities is all on Go North East, and Go’s commercial decision to not offer a pay deal which is satisfactory to their staff.

I'm all for fair pay but they are being unreasonable by complaining they have to go to food banks and barely afford to live. I'm on a lot less than them at £10.66 hour; yes I'm struggling, but due to these strikes I'm now unable to get to work to earn a living.

They should have accepted the last offer as it was a good deal and they were going to get another pay rise next year as well - this just screams greed.

 

[jkkne]

From a driver on the old social media

It was only last friday 20th October that the union offered GNE a deal which it said would be recommended to its members and would have highly likely been accepted. That deal was:

• 1 year deal
• 11.2% pay rise ( this offer met GNE exactly halfway on the %) (unions original claim was 13.3% - GNE offer was 9.1%)
• no changes to T&Cs

GNE rejected it and on Wednesday 25th October offered:

• 2 year deal
• 10.3% in first year, second year RPI + 0.25% (RPI is forecast to be around 1.6% next year)
• T&Cs to be discussed on depot by depot basis over next 3 months.

This was rejected in the ballot by 82% of members with a turnout of 93%.

The problems with the GNE offer is that firstly, the company are trying to tie them into agreeing to a pay rise next year of something around 2% or the equivalent of about £10 a week which niether drivers or the union want. Secondly, the changes to the T&Cs the company are proposing means drivers will not be paid when they get to work but when they start driving in service. This equates to roughly 40-60 minutes a day depending on where the drivers enter service, some of them are places such as Peterlee, Washington, Durham etc. This unpaid time essentially means they are funding their own pay rise.

 

[Mwanesh]

I haven't at any point suggested that Nexus should step in to replace commercial GNE routes. It would absolutely be wrong for Nexus to step in to replace routes like the 21.
I've said that Nexus and the County Councils should be intervening on secured routes that they contract to GNE, by re-tendering them to an operator that is actually capable of operating them. Secured routes are secured for a reason, because they're essential.


The blame sits with two parties - GNE and Unite. Unite encouraged their members to reject a 10% pay rise, they're not exactly being reasonable themselves and are rightly being criticised for it by a lot of the impacted people. Some people on these forums don't seem to be able to understand that Unions aren't always right.

As for not blaming GNE, part of the post you quoted from me very specifically mentions that Featham and Maxfield are largely responsible. Featham and Maxfield are Managing Director and Business Director at GNE respectively.

A lot of routes that GNE previously ran commercially are now tendered as GNE pulled the plug on them last year. The vast majority of them stayed with GNE as tendered routes after GNE ceased operating them commercially. In Chester-le-Street alone there's at least four such routes - 25, 28, 29 and 34. They lost two more routes they pulled the plug on to other operators in the tenders - the 71 is now with Gateshead Central and the 725 (split from the 25) is now with Weardale. There's many others all across the region that are secured after GNE made the decision last year to cease running them commercially and the vast majority of those are with GNE now as tendered routes. The fact that they were once commercial routes is irrelevant, they're secured routes now and it's the responsibility of Nexus and the County Councils to ensure that buses operate on secured routes. They're not exactly 'secured' if the company contracted to run them isn't running them...


Exactly.


It's long established practice that Nexus will ensure that no unserved bus stop is more than 400 metres away from a bus stop that has a service. It might not be legislated that Nexus has to do so but it definitely is Nexus policy. The two County Councils have their own policies which I'm not 100% sure on but both of them have an established practice of going beyond the minimum legal requirement.

The dispute isn't Nexus' responsibility in the sense that it's not for them to resolve the differences between GNE and Unite. But in the case of secured services it absolutely is in order for Nexus to use taxpayer money to pay GNE's competitors to run a service instead. The money does indirectly come out of GNE's pocket as it's the same money that would have been paid to them instead. Nexus secures the services and it's ultimately their responsibility to make sure they run, regardless who runs them.


That is simply not true for large parts of the region unless you're counting taxi firms as 'other operators'. Even then it's still not accurate as many can't afford to use taxis.


In other words as it's half term GNE are sending their managers on holiday for a week instead of splitting them between the driving cab and the negotiating table like they should be.

To my knowledge there have been no further talks between GNE and Unite since Friday's vote.

Tenders take time to process the route registrations. It's not an easy task. Independents won't want to take on short notice work. Where will they get the vehicles from quickly. Even drivers these days are hard to get. You only need to look in the area to see how many small operators are left compared to say 10 years ago.

 

[pjnathanail]

Tenders take time to process the route registrations. It's not an easy task. Independents won't want to take on short notice work. Where will they get the vehicles from quickly. Even drivers these days are hard to get. You only need to look in the area to see how many small operators are left compared to say 10 years ago.

In fairness, most independent operators will take on work at short notice, if the price is right. Local authorities across the country have worked successfully in a whole host of situations to mobilise short notice bus services, and independent operators are usually the ones who pick up the work. Ironically a major reason this is often required is other independent operators ceasing trading at short notice, but that's a different story!

The challenge here will be the internal staff resource within Nexus to decide what to run, and then procure it. Many independents won't go too far from home, so it isn't as simple as canvassing operators, totting up how many buses they volunteer and then picking the most important routes - a more conversational style approach is needed. But that takes time, expertise and local knowledge.

I am surprised that Nexus haven't implemented contingency plans here, given the scale of the service disruption, and the statutory duty on the local transport authority to procure socially necessary transport. But my surprise as a random forum reader doesn't convert to action on the part of the LTA!

 

[markymark2000]

The problems with the GNE offer is that firstly, the company are trying to tie them into agreeing to a pay rise next year of something around 2% or the equivalent of about £10 a week which niether drivers or the union want. Secondly, the changes to the T&Cs the company are proposing means drivers will not be paid when they get to work but when they start driving in service. This equates to roughly 40-60 minutes a day depending on where the drivers enter service, some of them are places such as Peterlee, Washington, Durham etc. This unpaid time essentially means they are funding their own pay rise.

This is the bit that gets me, something seems off with it because surely no bus operator is surely going to suggest this sort of practise unless they actually want the ballot to fail. As much as I know people say the two managers at GNE aren't the best with industrial relations, I don't think that even they would go to this level. There HAS to be more to this story than what is being stated here.

I think it has to be remembered that there are two sides to the story and while yes some people may dislike the 2 managers at GNE, the conditions that GNE want to change may well be reasonable and I think that we should all learn to not just accept what the union say or what very involved unionists say, there are 2 sides and it may well be very reasonable. GoNorthWest for example, the union kept very quiet that drivers were still being paid rollblind time despite rollerblinds hadn't been in the depot for years.

I am surprised that Nexus haven't implemented contingency plans here, given the scale of the service disruption, and the statutory duty on the local transport authority to procure socially necessary transport. But my surprise as a random forum reader doesn't convert to action on the part of the LTA!

Most PTEs don't get involved though if there is a strike because it could be seen as them going against drivers. During various Merseyside strikes, Merseytravel never stepped in. Similarly strikes in Manchester, TFGM never stepped in. Arguebly by not stepping in, the authority saves money and in some cases could make money depending on if they fine operators for not running a trip. If they were to fund new services, it would be down to independents or non unioned staff at Stagecoach (as unionised drivers tend to stick together. When Arriva had their strike in Chester, Stagecoach ran a few extra trips on Sunday mornings (replacing those normally ran by Arriva) but this had to be driven by a manager). To step in would also cost a lot because it's emergency contracts which always have a higher rate, plus there is kind of danger money, there was lots of reports of violence during the GoNorthWest strike against companies who were filling in on services, nothing stops a repetition of that during this strike. In short, I am not surprised Nexus want to save money and have people suffer a poorer transport network short term rather than spend a lot more money (that they don't have) on emergency contracts to give people a very limited service and potentially give themselves a bad name with the strike situation.

 

[jkkne]

I believe Stagecoach NE operate the no pay until in service but this is outweighed by other favourable t&cs (and their depots tend to be nearer starting points)

Imagine running an X21 to Bishop or a 21 to Durham/CLS from Dunston

 

[DanNCL]

I'm all for fair pay but they are being unreasonable complaining they have to go to food banks and barely afford to live I'm on a lot less than them at 10.66 hour yes im struggling but due to these strikes im now unable to get to work and earn a living.

They should have accepted the last offer as it was a good deal and there were going to get another pay rise next year as well this just screams greed.

I guess if someone is trying to feed themselves and dependent children off £12.83 an hour as well as pay rent etc they would find it incredibly difficult. But even then, if bus drivers are going to food banks it's a small minority of them. They're certainly not all gathering after their shifts for a group trip to the food bank.

Tenders take time to process the route registrations. It's not an easy task. Independents won't want to take on short notice work. Where will they get the vehicles from quickly. Even drivers these days are hard to get. You only need to look in the area to see how many small operators are left compared to say 10 years ago.

It can be done within a couple of weeks. If there's a will there's a way, we're not asking them to cover the entire GNE network on full timetables we're asking for a small number of 'secured' services to be covered on a reduced timetable.

In fairness, most independent operators will take on work at short notice, if the price is right. Local authorities across the country have worked successfully in a whole host of situations to mobilise short notice bus services, and independent operators are usually the ones who pick up the work. Ironically a major reason this is often required is other independent operators ceasing trading at short notice, but that's a different story!

Exactly this. It's the independents that pick up the short notice Metro replacement contracts, not the 'big 3' operators. Indeed there's been a few times recently where some of the local independents have had a Metro replacement up and running within two hours of the first phone call being made. It's only when rail replacements are planned weeks ahead that you'll usually see the 'big 3' operating them.

The challenge here will be the internal staff resource within Nexus to decide what to run, and then procure it. Many independents won't go too far from home, so it isn't as simple as canvassing operators, totting up how many buses they volunteer and then picking the most important routes - a more conversational style approach is needed. But that takes time, expertise and local knowledge.

I am surprised that Nexus haven't implemented contingency plans here, given the scale of the service disruption, and the statutory duty on the local transport authority to procure socially necessary transport. But my surprise as a random forum reader doesn't convert to action on the part of the LTA!

Nexus are by a country mile the worst PTE in the country. It would genuinely not be a surprise if Nexus didn't have any contingency plans for GNE (or Arriva or Stagecoach for that matter) completely shutting down for any period of time.
Durham and Northumberland County Councils are free to make their own decisions on alternative provisions in their areas independent of Nexus.

The problems with the GNE offer is that firstly, the company are trying to tie them into agreeing to a pay rise next year of something around 2% or the equivalent of about £10 a week which niether drivers or the union want. Secondly, the changes to the T&Cs the company are proposing means drivers will not be paid when they get to work but when they start driving in service. This equates to roughly 40-60 minutes a day depending on where the drivers enter service, some of them are places such as Peterlee, Washington, Durham etc. This unpaid time essentially means they are funding their own pay rise.

It's been made clear by several 'in the know' that unpaid empty runs have never been on the table in this dispute.

This is the bit that gets me, something seems off with it because surely no bus operator is surely going to suggest this sort of practise unless they actually want the ballot to fail. As much as I know people say the two managers at GNE aren't the best with industrial relations, I don't think that even they would go to this level. There HAS to be more to this story than what is being stated here.

I think it has to be remembered that there are two sides to the story and while yes some people may dislike the 2 managers at GNE, the conditions that GNE want to change may well be reasonable and I think that we should all learn to not just accept what the union say or what very involved unionists say, there are 2 sides and it may well be very reasonable. GoNorthWest for example, the union kept very quiet that drivers were still being paid rollblind time despite rollerblinds hadn't been in the depot for years.

Both sides are being unreasonable and for as long as that continues to be the case this dispute won't be resolved.

It probably is worth bearing in mind that of the several operators that Featham has been MD of, there's been strikes at every single one of them during his tenure as MD. That's probably not a coincidence.

In short, I am not surprised Nexus want to save money and have people suffer a poorer transport network short term rather than spend a lot more money (that they don't have) on emergency contracts to give people a very limited service and potentially give themselves a bad name with the strike situation.

Nexus have nothing to lose, their reputation is already dire, they're universally disliked across the region by passengers and staff alike.

I believe Stagecoach NE operate the no pay until in service but this is outweighed by other favourable t&cs (and their depots tend to be nearer starting points)

Stagecoach's longest empty run on the Busways (Tyne & Wear) division is if I recall correctly from Slatyford to Darras Hall, a journey of about 20 minutes if that. Not sure what it would be on the Transit (Teesside) division, now that Stagecoach have the 59 it could be Hartlepool to Durham which would be in a similar league to Dunston to Durham for time

 

[markymark2000]

Nexus are by a country mile the worst PTE in the country

That is a bold statement to make. I think all PTEs in the UK could be up for that award, they are all extremely poor.

Both sides are being unreasonable and for as long as that continues to be the case this dispute won't be resolved.

Same as the unions in almost all disputes since Covid, I think unions now have a policy to push for strike irrespective of what is offered just because they want the publicity. I'd be interested in some stats but from what I see (only personal experience), younger people don't like joining unions and so they want all the publicity about stupidly high wage increases so that they can get more members, no care for anything other than grandstanding

It probably is worth bearing in mind that of the several operators that Featham has been MD of, there's been strikes at every single one of them during his tenure as MD. That's probably not a coincidence.

Featham is in a difficult position though. He is being told that his buses must make so much profit and he has to find a way for them to make as much money as possible and anything which increases cost without also increasing revenue, is unlikely to help that situation. You've also got to consider that too high of a wage rise would make you less favourable for tenders or, as we are seeing now, tenders costing so much that the before the pot of money could have funded 7 buses worth of work, that money now stretches to only 5 buses worth of work and so the company reduces it's PVR which is never a good look either (and leads to difficult decisions like Chester-le-street). If he offered a 15% increase right now but by the way 2 depot are going to have to close, would that be accepted? No, of course not. But that is the reality of the offers that Nigel and the team have to consider. Perhaps sometimes Nigel and the team may not be as friendly as other MDs but could it be a good negotiation tactic. Go in low and slowly raise the offer, when it goes to strike action, the longer it goes on, staff get more desperate for a deal so may accept lower. You'd be a pretty poor MD in the companies eyes if a union said 'jump' and you said 'how high'. Is it just that Nigel is more ruthless with negotiation and wants a deal which is still in the companies best interests rather than bowing down to the union all of the time. It's good to see a MD standing up to the union though. It's because of the bowing down to unions how things like the rollerblind time kept going at GoNorthWest.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm on a lot less than them at £10.66 hour; yes I'm struggling

Maybe you need to get a union which will stand up for your rights.

I guess if someone is trying to feed themselves and dependent children off £12.83 an hour as well as pay rent etc they would find it incredibly difficult

And they do.

The other part of Unite’s issue is the fatigue issues. Drivers on poor wages end up working all the overtime God sends just to pay the rent. Call me old fashioned, but I don’t want the drivers of heavy machinery to be routinely having to pull 60-hour weeks.

Nexus are by a country mile the worst PTE in the country.

They wanted franchising, they lost in Court, instead we got a “partnership” with GNE. So we are where we are.

That is simply not true for large parts of the region unless you're counting taxi firms as 'other operators'. Even then it's still not accurate as many can't afford to use taxis.

My point is that nobody is stopping the person I was replying to from “shopping at another supermarket”.

I haven't at any point suggested that Nexus should step in to replace commercial GNE routes. It would absolutely be wrong for Nexus to step in to replace routes like the 21.

It’s the lack of the commercial routes which is causing the issue, though. People aren’t complaining about being stuck at home because the tendered routes aren’t running. After all, the routes are tendered for a reason.

They’re complaining because the 21 and the X45 aren’t running. And that seems to be the tone throughout the thread- Nexus should use taxpayer money to fund strike-breaking buses on core GNE routes. No.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

On the surface of things, I have a lot of sympathy for the drivers. Naturally, they don't wish to be worse off, and there's definitely a need to elevate their pay. At the same time, GNE wants to reduce costs, and do away with some restrictive practices. That's not an easy circle to square. On the other hand, the damage that is being done to the business is really concerning, both in short term inconvenience to customers and long term undermining of the business, and that might prove to be something of a pyrrhic victory for either side. They need to talk and hammer something out.

However, there's a few things that I did want to come back to as they've been mentioned in various posts above.

As regards the "partnership" with Nexus, there isn't one. Remember that Nexus wanted to progress franchising. NEBOA (North East Bus Operators Association) countered with their partnership pitch but Nexus turned that down. They went full on for franchising but they got their sums wrong. When told to go away and try again, they returned with a revised plan but again it was fundamentally flawed e.g. they had plans costed based on an enhanced revenue stream but no idea how they would fund the gap between transition and utopia. That was Nexus' decision not to go with a partnership.

Now there's talk of Nexus and other local authorities stepping in to provide emergency cover. That's doable but there are many fewer local firms now in the area. 30 years ago, you'd have had North Rider, Jolly, Catch a Bus, Redby, Stanley Taxis, Classic, Scarlet Band among the regular operators and that's not exhaustive. Aside from GCT, Stanley Travel and Weardale, there's a number of other operators but with part time drivers doing schools, the scope is really much reduced now.

Also there's been a lot of mentions of certain personalities. I don't know Nigel Featham but I guard against the "he's got form" and other precedent stuff. One poster blamed him for Arriva Yorkshire's strike when he was long gone. Go North West was a basket case and Queens Road was a notoriously militant depot with archaic working practices that First had never tackled. The Arriva NE industrial action was a straight forward pay dispute, they had stoppages and then hammered out a deal. In this, and given his involvement in Manchester, I'd question exactly how much he's been involved, though perhaps that's the next move?

 

[northern506]

On the surface of things, I have a lot of sympathy for the drivers. Naturally, they don't wish to be worse off, and there's definitely a need to elevate their pay. At the same time, GNE wants to reduce costs, and do away with some restrictive practices. That's not an easy circle to square. On the other hand, the damage that is being done to the business is really concerning, both in short term inconvenience to customers and long term undermining of the business, and that might prove to be something of a pyrrhic victory for either side. They need to talk and hammer something out.

However, there's a few things that I did want to come back to as they've been mentioned in various posts above.

As regards the "partnership" with Nexus, there isn't one. Remember that Nexus wanted to progress franchising. NEBOA (North East Bus Operators Association) countered with their partnership pitch but Nexus turned that down. They went full on for franchising but they got their sums wrong. When told to go away and try again, they returned with a revised plan but again it was fundamentally flawed e.g. they had plans costed based on an enhanced revenue stream but no idea how they would fund the gap between transition and utopia. That was Nexus' decision not to go with a partnership.

Now there's talk of Nexus and other local authorities stepping in to provide emergency cover. That's doable but there are many fewer local firms now in the area. 30 years ago, you'd have had North Rider, Jolly, Catch a Bus, Redby, Stanley Taxis, Classic, Scarlet Band among the regular operators and that's not exhaustive. Aside from GCT, Stanley Travel and Weardale, there's a number of other operators but with part time drivers doing schools, the scope is really much reduced now.

Also there's been a lot of mentions of certain personalities. I don't know Nigel Featham but I guard against the "he's got form" and other precedent stuff. One poster blamed him for Arriva Yorkshire's strike when he was long gone. Go North West was a basket case and Queens Road was a notoriously militant depot with archaic working practices that First had never tackled. The Arriva NE industrial action was a straight forward pay dispute, they had stoppages and then hammered out a deal. In this, and given his involvement in Manchester, I'd question exactly how much he's been involved, though perhaps that's the next move?

There was an Arriva Yorkshire strike in 2016 when he was managing director.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As regards the "partnership" with Nexus, there isn't one. Remember that Nexus wanted to progress franchising. NEBOA (North East Bus Operators Association) countered with their partnership pitch but Nexus turned that down.

My recollection is that NEBOA came up with all sorts of amazing plans subsequent to Nexus’ franchising plans, and the NEBOA paradise was largely used by the Tribunal as the reason why Nexus’ franchising plans should not be permitted to proceed.

Of course, having obtained their Tribunal victory, NEBOA proceeded to do the square root of bugger all about putting their plans into action. Nexus didn’t block anything. NEBOA promised the moon to the Tribunal and got what they wanted.

Since then we have Arriva having essentially given up, and we have Go North East not far behind them, especially in North Tyneside and in Jarrow.

Here’s what I said in 2016 about it all:

Yes, I think the Quality Contract assessment panel were biased against the idea of Quality Contracts, if not Nexus themselves. Nexus were ripped to shreds- they were basically told they can't contract buses because they don't currently run buses- whilst NEBOA's assertions were all seemingly taken at face value DESPITE the fact that the panel actually acknowledged NEBOA were being disingenuous. The panel decided a voluntary partnership would be OK despite NEBOA only offering this in the hearing rather than, say, eighteen months previously.

I think the introduction of the SmartZone ticketing by council area- despite the fact most travel is across council boundaries- shows just how disingenuous NEBOA were being with their promises. The tickets are basically useless, as well NEBOA know. I can't think of a single Stagecoach route you can ride end to end in one council area. It's as though they've deliberately done the most useless thing they could whilst still fitting in with the promises they made.

I don't think the Nexus proposals were the way forward, I think a genuine voluntary partnership is the way forward. Sadly NEBOA are acting like petulant schoolchildren, so chances of that happening are nil.

As for the panel, I think they were biased, and the result is that they've set the burden so high that no PTE could ever impose a quality contract. The bus operators must be gutted.

I hate that I’ve largely been proven right, except for the last paragraph.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My recollection is that NEBOA came up with all sorts of amazing plans subsequent to Nexus’ franchising plans, and the NEBOA paradise was largely used by the Tribunal as the reason why Nexus’ franchising plans should not be permitted to proceed.

Of course, having obtained their Tribunal victory, NEBOA proceeded to do the square root of bugger all about putting their plans into action. Nexus didn’t block anything. NEBOA promised the moon to the Tribunal and got what they wanted.

Since then we have Arriva having essentially given up, and we have Go North East not far behind them, especially in North Tyneside and in Jarrow.

Your recollection is perhaps jaded by time. The reasons for rejection were financial, as I alluded to above (detailed here https://www.oxera.com/insights/agen...ng-bus-franchising-and-the-tyne-and-wear-qcs/), and were:

The QCS Board review process involved a thorough and detailed debate of the merits of Nexus’ QCS proposal. Two of the public interest tests in the Transport Act put economics at the heart of the QCS Board’s deliberations. These were the requirements that the scheme provided ‘value for money’ (criterion D); and that it imposed adverse effects on operators only to the extent that these were ‘proportionate’ to the benefits created (criterion E). Oxera witnesses gave their views on the economics of the case at the QCS Board hearings.

One fundamental economic challenge was the question of how a QCS proposal that left the network unchanged would generate the benefits needed to justify the costs and disruption (criterion D) and adverse operator impacts (criterion E). The transfer of a portion of operating margin from the private sector to the public sector was central to Nexus’ financial plans—but such transfers do not create economic value in themselves. This issue was identified by Oxera at the statutory consultation phase of the QCS, and ultimately conceded by Nexus.[17]

More broadly, any QCS needs to be affordable. The business model envisioned by Nexus was not risk-free, and financial viability depended on many factors outside the NECA’s control—such as macroeconomic conditions and their impact on demand levels, and cost inflation (e.g. the price of fuel)—that are passed on through higher contract prices. Significantly, Nexus’ proposal made firm long-term commitments regarding fares and service levels based on uncertain revenue flows, thereby opening up a significant risk of financial deficit to the local authority.

Notwithstanding these issues, Nexus asserted that the scheme offered value for money (i.e. that it met criterion D), largely due to the impact of ‘quality factors’ such as improved ticketing. While these were unrelated to ‘hard’ factors, such as the frequency, cost or speed of services, quality factors were assumed to create hundreds of millions of pounds’ worth of passenger benefits for relatively little financial cost. However, the QCS Board found multiple shortcomings in Nexus’ valuation of these measures. For example, the Board found that it was not reasonable to assume that concessionary passengers who did not purchase tickets would benefit from improvements to those tickets.[18]

These concerns, among others, led the QCS Board to conclude that criteria D and E of the public interest tests were not met.[19] Moreover, the QCS Board also found that the errors made in the economic analysis (such as those described above) should have been corrected and re-consulted upon by Nexus; and that by not doing so it may have misled consultees

Remember that the operators, led by Go NE, did make that offer in partnership with Nexus. That Nexus then didn't want to avail themselves of it was their decision. Perhaps if they had pursued that approach, things may have been different.

I most certainly agree with the parlous state of things in relation to both Arriva and Go North East. My views on Arriva are well known, and so you know I'm not impressed. As regards Go North East, the decline especially in North and South Tyneside is quite incredible. For South Tyneside, the rot really began with the closure of Shields depot and running everything from Deptford. As regards North Tyneside, I am bewildered how they've managed to get themselves into such a hole in just a few years.

There was an Arriva Yorkshire strike in 2016 when he was managing director.

Apologies - thought you were referring to the indefinite strike in 2019

 

[DanNCL]

It’s the lack of the commercial routes which is causing the issue, though. People aren’t complaining about being stuck at home because the tendered routes aren’t running. After all, the routes are tendered for a reason.

They’re complaining because the 21 and the X45 aren’t running. And that seems to be the tone throughout the thread- Nexus should use taxpayer money to fund strike-breaking buses on core GNE routes. No.

On social media that’s the case but through my work in the community it’s very much being stuck at home because the tendered routes aren’t running that people are unhappy about.
On my estate there’s approximately 1000 residents. There’s one bus route, which is a secured route contracted to GNE. Car ownership is around 75% but that’s still approx 250 people (myself included) stuck here without any access to the outside world other than taxis.

Now there's talk of Nexus and other local authorities stepping in to provide emergency cover. That's doable but there are many fewer local firms now in the area. 30 years ago, you'd have had North Rider, Jolly, Catch a Bus, Redby, Stanley Taxis, Classic, Scarlet Band among the regular operators and that's not exhaustive. Aside from GCT, Stanley Travel and Weardale, there's a number of other operators but with part time drivers doing schools, the scope is really much reduced now.

JH Coaches are another one that regularly provides last minute emergency cover for Metro, and unless they've since got rid of them they've now got a batch of ex-London E200s spare since they lost their tendered routes a few months ago.

Also there's been a lot of mentions of certain personalities. I don't know Nigel Featham but I guard against the "he's got form" and other precedent stuff. One poster blamed him for Arriva Yorkshire's strike when he was long gone. Go North West was a basket case and Queens Road was a notoriously militant depot with archaic working practices that First had never tackled. The Arriva NE industrial action was a straight forward pay dispute, they had stoppages and then hammered out a deal. In this, and given his involvement in Manchester, I'd question exactly how much he's been involved, though perhaps that's the next move?

It just seems like an incredibly unlikely coincidence.
Featham and Maxfield are effectively a double team, wherever Featham goes Maxfield seems to follow. They were together at Arriva, then moved to GNW together, and are now both at GNE (with Featham also still at GNW - Maxfield iirc is only at GNE now).

I most certainly agree with the parlous state of things in relation to both Arriva and Go North East. My views on Arriva are well known, and so you know I'm not impressed. As regards Go North East, the decline especially in North and South Tyneside is quite incredible. For South Tyneside, the rot really began with the closure of Shields depot and running everything from Deptford. As regards North Tyneside, I am bewildered how they've managed to get themselves into such a hole in just a few years.

With Arriva North East at least one gets the impression that they want to do something but are held back by lack of investment by the parent company (Arriva and in turn DB).

Stability will be another factor. Stagecoach North East has had the same management team for many years. Go North East has been through three MDs in five years.
The same goes for the route networks. Whilst Go North East change their routes every few months, Stagecoach (at least in Newcastle) still has for the most part the same core route network as it had 10 years ago, the only route axed in that time that I can think of is the 15/15A. Passengers like stability.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

With Arriva North East at least one gets the impression that they want to do something but are held back by lack of investment by the parent company (Arriva and in turn DB).

Stability will be another factor. Stagecoach North East has had the same management team for many years. Go North East has been through three MDs in five years.
The same goes for the route networks. Whilst Go North East change their routes every few months, Stagecoach (at least in Newcastle) still has for the most part the same core route network as it had 10 years ago, the only route axed in that time that I can think of is the 15/15A. Passengers like stability.

I agree with you about Stagecoach. They have had stability, especially in the team below the MD with many there under the management of Phil Medlicott and John Conroy.

However, you say Go NE has had 3 MDs in 5 years if you want to look at the last days of Kevin Carr.... Take his appointment and they've had 3 MDs in 12 years. Peter Huntley shook up the network and the image in his period, and Kevin Carr generally continued that approach though toning down some of the branding so there was some stability for 13 years. It was Martijn Gilbert whose reign was typified with doing things differently, and that has coincided with all the Covid upheaval.

I still find it odd to see Stagecoach vehicles in Whitley Bay and Jarrow TBH.

We will have to disagree about Arriva. The business, as a whole. has long operated on a very prescriptive method of assessing route viability (pre DB), and they've closed a lot of depots in the last 20 years across the North East. Somewhat ironically, the best period that Arriva had in recent years was when Nigel Featham was there.

 

[mgsbus]

Well well
Let me first say as someone who does the job say that unite are doing what they should and get the best for overworked drivers who have to put up with more than you know. 40 minutes breaks, no toilets - well one at Washington which about 10 drivers have to use - buses that are past their sell by date, and to have a company who lie though their teeth is some else.

£4million loss - are you really believing this? Then the sky is pink! Look at the press release £40,000 and they tried to say a bus driver is earning this. I've been in this industry for over 25 years and even in London there were NO drivers earning that but hay-ho you believe it.
Drivers should be on £15 per hour max and then more for unsocial hours ie 04.00 start and 0100 finish.
And you wonder why you can’t get drivers. It will never change and that’s why unions are fighting now.
I bet that the driver of the bus that went over in Durham dosed off .

 

[Geordie driver]

Well well
Let me first say as someone who does the job say that unite are doing what they should and get the best for overworked drivers who have to put up with more than you know. 40 minutes breaks, no toilets - well one at Washington which about 10 drivers have to use - buses that are past their sell by date, and to have a company who lie though their teeth is some else.

£4million loss - are you really believing this? Then the sky is pink! Look at the press release £40,000 and they tried to say a bus driver is earning this. I've been in this industry for over 25 years and even in London there were NO drivers earning that but hay-ho you believe it.
Drivers should be on £15 per hour max and then more for unsocial hours ie 04.00 start and 0100 finish.
And you wonder why you can’t get drivers. It will never change and that’s why unions are fighting now.
I bet that the driver of the bus that went over in Durham dosed off .

Welcome to the forum.

Not many drivers post on here now.

I back the drivers 100%.

 

[jkkne]

Speaking of drivers - another one has posted this response to the Chronicle's latest article on the strikes - outlining how we got to here.

TLDR: - This strike has been 5 month in the making and in that time GNE have attended only 12 DAYS OF TALKS.
Don't blame the drivers. Blame Go North East and the Go Ahead Group who have allowed the ego of two senior managers cause millions of pounds of damage to the north east.
------
Timeline:

May - the union held meetings with workers to decide what they wanted and put together a pay claim that everyone agreed to.

June - the union submitted the play claim which was refused.

June 23rd - GNE submit a counter offer including equivalent of Go North West's terms but with woeful pay offer which there is no chance the drivers would accept. Rep's rejected this.

July 1st - the date that the claim should be put into place. At the time RPI was 11.4%.

July 7th - Unite held pay talks with GNE who had failed to produce any new offer and afterwards were described as a waste of time by reps.

July 9th - talks are called off by GNE so Unite call a provisional ballot from workers on if they are prepared to strike. They overwhelmingly vote to strike so official strike procedures start.

July 9th - September 11th - GNE refuse any offer of talks with Rep's as they feel that providing the option to strike is showing a lack of "good faith"

September 12th - workers again vote overwhelmingly to strike. With 97.92% voting to strike and an 83.37% turnout. UNITE submit their intention for 2, week long strikes.

September 25th - GNE finally return to the table but refuse to offer any meaningful changes or even accept the concerns of the workers. Talks continue until the 27th when talks break down.

September 30th - first week long strike takes place. GNE tells reps that they are too busy to meet while striking is taken place.

10th October - GNE tells rep's they are willing to talk on the 11th.

11th October - GNE removes their conditions from their offer which the understanding that they will discuss terms separately over the next three months on a depot by depot basis. This was refused by the reps as it was an attempt to divide the depots and weaken them. Talks collapse.

13th October - UNITE submits intention for indefinite strike from the 28th October.

14th October - second week long strike. Again GNE are too busy to talk while strike action is taking place.

23rd October - talks start again with no movement. Unconfirmed reports are on the 24th GNE offered the same deal but with 10.5% if the Reps agreed to endorse it which they refused.

25th October - "The Watershed Moment" GNE give a final offer of 10.3% [taking drivers to 1p above stagecoach drivers]. Rep's tell GNE that workers will not accept these terms but will put it to ballot to prove it.

GNE releases this deal to the press before rep's are able to inform their workers so most find this out over social media. Press runs that the strike is over and that Unite have agreed the deal. THIS IS CATEGORICALLY UNTRUE.

Unite hold an emergency ballot on this offer.

October 27th
Richard Holden MP (Under secratary for transport and NW Durham MP) Stands up in Parliament and announces GNE & Unite have come to an agreement. He was incorrect. As was his source.

October 27th - workers again overwhelmingly reject this offer with 81% and a 93% turnout.

October 28th - workers are back on the picket line on indefinite strike. Conditions have caused this,,, they say no conditions, but make the condition that conditions will be discussed / implemented over the next 3 months, depot by depot.

Also no driver wants a 2 year deal / con.
It needs to be a one year deal, end of.

 

[Megafuss]

Speaking of drivers - another one has posted this response to the Chronicle's latest article on the strikes - outlining how we got to here.

They forgot the part where members of UNITE offered GNE a settlement, which was then accepted, and then withdrawn by the union the next day. I wonder why they omitted that