1992 stock Refurbishment?

[pbin]

It looks like they're going for a darker moquette judging from the Twitter pic but could be wrong.

It appears to be a car without any seats in it.

 

[bramling]

I guess that depends on how long they stay in service for.

Once the Piccadilly Line stock is complete, it would be astonishing is the Bakerloo Line trains didn't follow on, and after that would be the turn of the Central Line trains to be replaced if there isn't to be a wasteful stopping and starting of the Goole production line.

Realistically I suspect it will come down to which of the Bakerloo or Central line fleets falls apart first. No one really knows how the 92 stock is going to hold up in the medium term once this work is completed, as it’s all something of an unknown. It may be their making, or five years from now they may be just as unreliable as now. As for the Bakerloo fleet, this is less of an unknown, but again who really knows how they will hold up. I wouldn’t like to bet money on which fleet will go first, on paper it will be the Bakerloo but if the 92 stock continues to give the level of problems it is giving now then it could just as easily flip the other way.

 

[Mikey C]

Realistically I suspect it will come down to which of the Bakerloo or Central line fleets falls apart first. No one really knows how the 92 stock is going to hold up in the medium term once this work is completed, as it’s all something of an unknown. It may be their making, or five years from now they may be just as unreliable as now. As for the Bakerloo fleet, this is less of an unknown, but again who really knows how they will hold up. I wouldn’t like to bet money on which fleet will go first, on paper it will be the Bakerloo but if the 92 stock continues to give the level of problems it is giving now then it could just as easily flip the other way.

You'd hope the Central Line trains would last longer, seeing that they're 20 years younger and £500m has just been spent on them!

 

[Thirteen]

The Bakerloo Line needs stock replacement urgently but also it's a smaller order compared to the Central Line and I think it's going to be like for like with the new Piccadilly Line trains apart from interiors so makes sense for it to follow on from the Piccadilly Line.

 

[bramling]

The Bakerloo Line needs stock replacement urgently but also it's a smaller order compared to the Central Line and I think it's going to be like for like with the new Piccadilly Line trains apart from interiors so makes sense for it to follow on from the Piccadilly Line.

There’s also the question of whether funding might need to be found for signalling works, particularly on the Piccadilly Line, but also the Central Line if the 1990s system starts to run into serious obsolescence issues. With money now tight, I’d say it isn’t necessarily a given that any immediate follow-on to the Piccadilly Line fleet replacement is an absolute certainty. One wonders just how long the 72 stock could be made to last if it really came to it, the answer may well lie on the Isle of Wight!

 

[thomalex]

One wonders just how long the 72 stock could be made to last if it really came to it

I guess the answer to that in reality is a very long time, it's just about how much money you're willing to spend on keeping them going and at what point new rolling stock becomes the cheaper option.

 

[Thirteen]

I guess the answer to that in reality is a very long time, it's just about how much money you're willing to spend on keeping them going and at what point new rolling stock becomes the cheaper option.

The Class 483s aren't a like for like comparison to the 1972 stock because it was a fairly light service but they were able to use parts from failing units for the working units. They could that to the Bakerloo stock but there comes a point where they need to replaced.

 

[Recessio]

Why is the 1992 stock being such a problem? Is it just obsolescence of parts due to the then-new technology (compared to older stock such as say the 72/73 that was virtually unchanged technology since WW2)? And why aren't the 96 stock a problem (cracks aside) if they're only slightly younger than the 92?

Were the 83 stock problematic on the Jubilee at all?

Mods sorry if this is too off-topic for this thread. I'm just trying to understand why the 92 so desperately need this refurbishment versus the other stocks.

 

[bramling]

Why is the 1992 stock being such a problem? Is it just obsolescence of parts due to the then-new technology (compared to older stock such as say the 72/73 that was virtually unchanged technology since WW2)? And why aren't the 96 stock a problem (cracks aside) if they're only slightly younger than the 92?

Were the 83 stock problematic on the Jubilee at all?

Mods sorry if this is too off-topic for this thread. I'm just trying to understand why the 92 so desperately need this refurbishment versus the other stocks.

The short answer is that virtually everything is wrong with the 92 stock. They were designed and built at a time when technology was rapidly advancing, so they were essentially pioneers in many aspects. It is also said that they were somewhat designed down to a price by a builder with no prior experience of building Tube trains. The bodyshells are deteriorating, the electronics are obsolete and deteriorating, the traction packages weren’t quite up to the job (they were the first and only application of a DC motor to a “high performance” ATO application), and on top of that they have been quite intensively worked.

If you look at the three 1990s stocks, the 96 and 95 stocks are significantly refined over the 92 stock, despite being only a few years later. The 95 stock is itself a refinement over the 96 stock, which is starting to show now as the 96 stock is also beginning to run in to issues.

The 83 stock had issues as well, though in their case more surprising given the D stock was well regarded. Most of the 83 stock issue was the single-leaf door design blunder, but they had some technical issues as well. ISTR the auxiliary system was troublesome, though I daresay had the trains had a long-term future then this might have been dealt with.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Unit 91001 has been tested and spotted post refurbishment at Stratford - a video has uploaded to YouTube (not my video)

It looks like they now have dot matrix indicators, which I don’t remember being there before

 

[Thirteen]

TfL really don't want people seeing the new moquette.

 

[Via Bank]

Hard to tell if they accelerate faster than before, but it certainly looks like it goes like stink.

You can also just about hear the updated voice announcements, and… oof, that's a lot of words. I think they'll want to edit/dial back on a few of them. Obviously not representative of real dwell times, but the announcements won't be any use if they're saying "this is Stratford…" well after the doors have closed and they've pulled away from Stratford.

 

[Lockwood]

"This is Stratford. Welcome on board this Central Line service to Epping. Blah blah blah. That was Stratford."

 

[MaidaVale]

Hard to tell if they accelerate faster than before, but it certainly looks like it goes like stink.

You can also just about hear the updated voice announcements, and… oof, that's a lot of words. I think they'll want to edit/dial back on a few of them. Obviously not representative of real dwell times, but the announcements won't be any use if they're saying "this is Stratford…" well after the doors have closed and they've pulled away from Stratford.

The announcements are usually triggered by the doors opening, So it's likely these are set up to just auto-trigger for a test without opening the doors, hence the poor timing.

At least they're voiced by a human and not text-to-speech like they were during the initial tests.

 

[thomalex]

Unit 91001 has been tested and spotted post refurbishment at Stratford - a video has uploaded to YouTube (not my video)

It looks like they now have dot matrix indicators, which I don’t remember being there before

Disappointing to see faded out roundels on these refurbished trains. I get they’re not doing anything externally but you would think refreshing some roundels while these trains are in wouldn’t break the bank.

 

[A60stock]

I was under the impression the trains were being externally polished?

 

[boiledbeans2]

the traction packages weren’t quite up to the job (they were the first and only application of a DC motor to a “high performance” ATO application), and on top of that they have been quite intensively worked.

Maybe "first and only" in the UK, but there are plenty of examples of DC motors paired with 4-quadrant GTO thyristor choppers for intensive ATO operations around the world.

Example 1: C151 trains operating in Singapore

Kawasaki Heavy Industries C151 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These trains were built in the late 1980s by Kawasaki in Japan, and were ATO from day 1, with fixed block signalling. In the 2010s, the signalling system was upgraded to CBTC, and the frequency of service has become more intense, with the addition of newer trains operating on the same lines. These trains are still in service today, although their retirement is imminent, as their replacement stock has already been ordered.

Example 2: M-train operating in HK

MTR Metro Cammell EMU (DC) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These trains were built in batches from 1970s to 1990s. The 1980s and 1990s batches had chopper control when new. The 1970s batches had camshaft control when new, however, they have been replaced with chopper control in the 1990s. So today, all trains have chopper control. Similar to the Singapore example, these trains were ATO from day 1 with fixed block signalling. Today, work is underway to upgrade the signalling system to CBTC.
Interestingly, these trains are built by Metro Cammell, and are still in operation today. Their retirement is imminent too, with their replacement stock ordered.

Example 3: Class 319s thrashed up and down everyday on Thameslink (although not ATO). Probably no further explanation is needed for this example.

 

[D7666]

Be fair to 1992 stock, the current service demand, and hence mileages, and knock on impact on fatigue, now is way higher than envisaged when they were specified.

Yes, ATO specified from start, and, high performance, and depending which source you choose to read or believe, 30 or 33 or 34 TPH - but that was all around one hour high peaks only, the rest of the day was barely 15 TPH. Now we have 3 hour full one hour peaks, with much much higher load factors, and 24TPH off peak all day every weekday, and night tube on top of that. All this has eaten into component life. 92TS fatigue design life - nominally 40 years - was exceeded in the late 2010s and a specially instrumented weighted test unit was run around to ascertain work needed.

Sure 92TS had its design shortcomings, but please do be fair to them, they have already done much more than they were ever designed to do.

 

[357]

Be fair to 1992 stock, the current service demand, and hence mileages, and knock on impact on fatigue, now is way higher than envisaged when they were specified.

Yes, ATO specified from start, and, high performance, and depending which source you choose to read or believe, 30 or 33 or 34 TPH - but that was all around one hour high peaks only, the rest of the day was barely 15 TPH. Now we have 3 hour full one hour peaks, with much much higher load factors, and 24TPH off peak all day every weekday, and night tube on top of that. All this has eaten into component life. 92TS fatigue design life - nominally 40 years - was exceeded in the late 2010s and a specially instrumented weighted test unit was run around to ascertain work needed.

Sure 92TS had its design shortcomings, but please do be fair to them, they have already done much more than they were ever designed to do.

If only more people understood this!

 

[Blindtraveler]

So glad to see someone else sticking up for these trains, I get on one every time and can't help marveling at just how good they still are in many ways

 

[Mikey C]

Do the 92s have a harder life though than the (nearly) 20 years older 73s or the only a few years younger 95s and 96s? All of which seem to have required much less work on them.

 

[Dstock7080]

The ‘73s had a major internal refurbishment in the early-2000s.
‘95s have had a minor refurbishment and ‘96s are currently undergoing a mechanical overhaul.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Do the 92s have a harder life though than the (nearly) 20 years older 73s or the only a few years younger 95s and 96s? All of which seem to have required much less work on them.

Don't the 96s run thru mainly new stations on the JLE that offer more better working conditions than the hot poor ventilated tunnels the central does

 

[Mikey C]

The ‘73s had a major internal refurbishment in the early-2000s.
‘95s have had a minor refurbishment and ‘96s are currently undergoing a mechanical overhaul.

The 73 have had one major internal refurb 20 years ago. Mechanically they are pretty much the same.

The 92 stock has had its bogies replaced, and now its traction motors.

 

[JaJaWa]

Are they getting the same moquette as the 2024 stock (this might not be a good idea if they are aiming to replace the 1992 stock with 2024 stock)? It’s called Holden on there.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Are they getting the same moquette as the 2024 stock (this might not be a good idea if they are aiming to replace the 1992 stock with 2024 stock)? It’s called Holden on there.

No apparently the moquette is a nod to the history of the central line, how far back is anyone's guess!

 

[Goldfish62]

No apparently the moquette is a nod to the history of the central line, how far back is anyone's guess!

I'm looking forward to seeing the new moquette. I'm just relieved it's not Barman, which I'm not at all a fan of.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I'm looking forward to seeing the new moquette. I'm just relieved it's not Barman, which I'm not at all a fan of.

Think i misunderstood the comment If the 2024 stock is Barman I'd be surprised if this wasn't another version like the Bakerloo has and not identical in colour to the 2024 stock. Two tone Grey and Red wouldn't look too bad. Nod to the past will likely just be the name of it.

 

[Nym]

The 73 have had one major internal refurb 20 years ago. Mechanically they are pretty much the same.

The 92 stock has had its bogies replaced, and now its traction motors.

73s were completely re-wired and all the aux and control components replaced. I'd hardly call that 'mechanically' the same.

 

[JaJaWa]

First train running in-service today: 10:30 from Hainault (towards Woodford) – 91001 & 91201, back at Hainault by 11:25.