Took an earlier train and got a fine

[Marica M]

Hi all, I'll appreciate your opinion and advice on my situation.

I've received the following DRPU letter (attaching) following a journey that I took on the 15th on Nov. I took an earlier train than the one I bought an advance ticket for as the one I was planning to take (9.10) had been cancelled and I had to be at work on time.
Please note that the letter arrived on the 25th of Nov, although dated the 21st of Nov.

I did reply the evening I received the letter, but haven't heard anything back from them till the 5th of December, after I actually called them.
Here below is the correspondence:
Written 25/11
Following receipt of your letter dated 21th of November 2023 with reference NTLTIRXXXXX please find attached my advance train ticket bought for the journey on 15th of November 2023 at 9.08 am. This journey was cancelled and I had to take an earlier train due to my work commitments. Ticket inspector on the train advised that he would send me a link where I will be able to explain the reason for not travelling on the 9.08 service, but I've never received such a link.

For your information, my ticket was purchased via Norther app with Booking reference: xxxxcx.

Please note that travelling on the 15th of November turned out to be a very unpleasant experience for me as my return journey (18.29 here attached) was cancelled as well and the train following that service (19.00) was 30 minutes delayed meaning I would have been back home 1 hour later than expected. I ended up taking a bus to return to Harrogate. Having a young child waiting for me to be back home, my evening plans were completely ruined.

Hope attached tickets and my explanation above is clear enough and any additional charges you reference in your letter are thus waived.

Thanks and regards,

____________
They replied:
Thank you for your e-mail. Please be aware that Advance tickets are only valid for use on the specified service and cannot be used on any other train services.

We will on this occasion accept payment of the fare of £11.20

____________
I'm honestly shocked. I've replied asking to 1. Advise what I would have had done in my situation. 2. That I was ready to pay a difference in the fair of the train I took and the one that was cancelled, but haven't got any reply.
To my huge surprise I got a FPN (final penalty notice) today (attached) saying I have now to pay £100.00 fine plus £11.20 fare.

I think it's SOOO unfair! The ticket inspector didn't ask me / insisted on me paying for the service I took, he just reported me....

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[John R]

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

The advance tickets t&c’s say that if your train is cancelled then special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train. Was your station unstaffed? If so, how could these arrangements be communicated to you?

If you didn’t receive any such notification as to what you should do then I think it is entirely reasonable that you took the immediately prior service, notwithstanding any other rules about taking a later train.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

If the train for which you hold an advance ticket is cancelled, you are allowed to use that ticket on the previous train. This is clearly explained on the Northern website. In addition, the industry wide PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption) makes clear that passengers should not be penalised if they are rerouted as a result of disruption.

If this is what happened, you should tell them that you owe them nothing, quote the relevant references which the forum can supply, and seek recompense for the trouble they have caused you.

In respect of the return journey, you are entitled to delay repay. A free ticket to anywhere on Northern may be worth more than a cash refund.

 

[BJames]

Advance Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Advance tickets on National Rail services. Advance tickets are single tickets for selected journeys, available in First Class and Standard Class, offering the best available price for each journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

The advance tickets t&c’s say that if your train is cancelled then special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train. Was your station unstaffed? If so, how could these arrangements be communicated to you?

If you didn’t receive any such notification as to what you should do then I think it is entirely reasonable that you took the immediately prior service, notwithstanding any other rules about taking a later train.

To add to that, on Northern's own website on a page titled 'Train Cancellations', it quite literally says the following:

Can I get a different train if mine is cancelled?​

There is nothing stopping you from catching a different train if your service is cancelled. Just check Northern’s timetable to find an alternative train.

 

[realemil]

I would highly advise writing a strongly worded letter back, explaining the situation in a way that a toddler could understand. Ensure that the facts are listed, as well as any evidence that you may have.

The forum will look over anything you write. You must mention that you had no choice, with your original train being canceled, and copying the extract from https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/advance under 'Advance Ticket Terms', 'Refunds' which says:

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

I am sure others on the forum can advise better, however.

 

[WesternLancer]

In respect of the return journey, you are entitled to delay repay. A free ticket to anywhere on Northern may be worth more than a cash refund.

I read it that the OP's intended train was cancelled, and the next one delayed by 30 mins - so they opted not to travel and caught a bus instead.

In these circs IIRC, the OP is due a refund as a result of exercising their right not to travel because their intended train was cancelled.

It would be helpful to know more about the journey (where from and to*) as they took a 9.08 train instead of a 9.10 train - is it the case that the alternative train they took was not operated by Northern and thus they got a less than helpful response from the Guard on the 9.08 train? Perhaps @Marica M can add more info about the stations concerned.


*EDIT - this appears to be detailed as from Starbeck - apols for not noticing.

I would highly advise writing a strongly worded letter back, explaining the situation in a way that a toddler could understand. Ensure that the facts are listed, as well as any evidence that you may have.

The forum will look over anything you write. You must mention that you had no choice, with your original train being canceled, and copying the extract from https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/advance under 'Advance Ticket Terms', 'Refunds' which says:


I am sure others on the forum can advise better, however.

Cross posted with my post - and written more clearly than me - good advice!

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Apologies. What I said regarding the return journey at item 3 above is incorrect. If the OP had completed the journey by train, it would be delay repay. But if the train journey was abandoned due to cancellation, it`s a refund. There is a time limit to claim.

Regarding the outward journey, if the OP had an advance ticket for the 9.08 from Starbeck and it was cancelled, then that ticket was valid on the 8.40. For Northern to say otherwise, to make threats, to demand money is unacceptable.

The train from Starbeck is at 9.08. There is no 9.10 train. That time may have been quoted as a loose approximation. There is no other operator at Starbeck besides Northern. Starbeck has been unstaffed since 1969.

If the OP`s only "crime" was to catch the 8.40 when the 9.08 was cancelled, then the OP is entirely in the right and Northern disgracefully in the wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

Preposterous by Northern. Whoever wrote you up is pathetic as well.

Good advice has already been given - please do show us a draft of what you plan to send them so we can look it over and make sure it covers everything in your defence!

 

[Sheffcaster202]

@Marica M attached is a screenshot of 3 departures at Starbeck, 1 either side of your cancelled service.

Given the regulations for advance tickets, it would be perfectly acceptable to use the earlier service!

Do you still have your ticket (assume it was an e/m ticket on your phone so we can see if there is anything else that could warrant it being deemed as travelling without a valid ticket? (Perhaps obscure the ticket number if uploading too)

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Just for clarity, you said you took an earlier train, which service did you travel on that day, was it the train immediately before or an earlier one etc?

 

[SteveM70]

Just for clarity, you said you took an earlier train, which service did you travel on that day, was it the train immediately before or an earlier one etc?

The time on the report letter is 08:52 so given the 08:40 was 4 minutes late, that corresponds pretty well to a ticket check upon leaving Harrogate, which often happens

The train before that would have been almost in Leeds by 08:52 so I would say it’s unlikely the OP was on this train but they’d need to confirm

 

[Ben Rhydding]

If the facts are as we are led to believe, the issue is clear cut. If a train is cancelled, an advance ticket is valid on the preceding train. Evidence for this (1) the Northern website, (2) the Conditions of Travel, (3) the PIDD.

If I were the OP, I would write to Nick Donovan, Managing Director of Northern asking him to intervene. I would explain that I am being threatened with prosecution for travelling with a perfectly valid ticket. I would invite him to share my concern that his staff appear so poorly trained as to not to know a basic and very common principle that, when a train is cancelled, an advance ticket can be used on an alternative train. For evidence of this, one need look no further than the very clear statement on the Northern website.

I would invite him to agree that it is bad enough having one`s train cancelled. That is breach of contract. But being harassed with demands for money and threats of prosecution for the "offence" of following Northern`s advice is something far worse. I would invite him to suggest some kind of recompense.

I would keep the letter to the MD friendly but business like. The OP is not in dispute with him. I would not make any threat, no reference to MP or media - at least not at this stage.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

If the facts are as we are led to believe, the issue is clear cut. If a train is cancelled, an advance ticket is valid on the preceding train. Evidence for this (1) the Northern website, (2) the Conditions of Travel, (3) the PIDD.

Totally agree!

Perhaps we need to wait for the OP to come back and give full details before anymore comments/debates are started?

 

[MrJeeves]

For evidence of the cancellation, here's the train in question:

Knaresborough to Leeds on 15/11/2023 | Train Timetable

Realtime Trains | 2C25 0905 Knaresborough to Leeds | 15/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 2C25 0905 departure from Knaresborough to Leeds on 15/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Marica M]

Thank you very much for all your replies and support!
I will draft a letter and will post it here for your review.
My question will be - should I write an appeal letter and send it to be registered to stop the ball rolling on their side? Obviously I want to avoid any prosecution. My little one has already asked me if I was going to jail Don't want to loose and deadlines they put in their last letter.
I can send another letter to Nick Donovan as well, is it FAO - a paper copy letter or I can find his email somewhere?

I did claim a refund for the return trip (had to chase NRail as it was promised to be in my bank account by the 4th of Dec, but didn't see anything until the 8th of Dec), so it's out of picture and the dispute is related to the morning trip to Leeds.

To clarify, I took the 8.40 train from Starbeck to Leeds that was also delayed if i remember it correctly. I tried to look for confirmation similar to one @MrJeeves posted above, but don't know where to look for it.
My advance ticket was for 9.08 train from Starbeck to Leeds.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Thank you very much for all your replies and support!
I will draft a letter and will post it here for your review.
My question will be - should I write an appeal letter and send it to be registered to stop the ball rolling on their side? Obviously I want to avoid any prosecution. My little one has already asked me if I was going to jail Don't want to loose and deadlines they put in their last letter.
I can send another letter to Nick Donovan as well, is it FAO - a paper copy letter or I can find his email somewhere?

I’d suggest worrying about the letter to Nick Donovan etc after you have resolved the issue with the prosecutions department.

You can do it by registered post but to speed things up perhaps email would be quicker? [email protected] would be the fastest way to get in touch with them.

It’s not really an appeal you’re looking for but something along the lines of:

In reference to your letter dated XX, Ref XX1234

I was booked the 0908 service
This was cancelled as you can see from https://timetables.trainsplit.com/times.aspx?uid=P55544&date=20231115

I then took the 0840 service as perfectly entitled to do so as per the advance ticket terms and conditions found at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

As my train was cancelled, I followed the terms and conditions described and travelled accordingly I do not feel any further payments are due.

That is a very rough draft as I do not have a great deal of time to write any more and I’m sure others will be along with a little more detailed advice soon too, if you wanted to send a paper copy registered for belt and braces I can’t see it being an issue but more unnecessary expense for yourself.

 

[Marica M]

Unfortunately that's exactly the address where I sent my first email to - [email protected] - and their reply was that I was liable for £11.20 and who then ignored my 2 following emails.

 

[MrJeeves]

I then took the 0840 service as perfectly entitled to do so as per the advance ticket terms and conditions found at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

People keep saying this, but nothing on that page actually says this.

The closest there is mentioned delays enroute allowing you to take the next service. Nothing about the service earlier.

It is generally accepted that you can take the service before (and anyone who does realistically shouldn't have any issue) but that's not written anywhere on NRE I can see publicly.

I would recommend the statement from Northern's own page about cancelled services be referenced instead.

 

[185]

Reading posts like this over and over again leads me to want Northern to be temporarily suspended from the National Penalty Fare scheme for a month or two to encourage Northern's Head of Retail (inc the Prosecutions Unit) Mr Wade to start taking responsibility for his department or give the job to someone more competent.

Very clear set of rules for staff to follow in the event of disruption especially when caused by the same operator.

If it is as stated, a passenger on a cancelled service can reasonably use the running ones either side (Northern's own statement) without penalty.

 

[realemil]

People keep saying this, but nothing on that page actually says this.

The closest there is mentioned delays enroute allowing you to take the next service. Nothing about the service earlier.

It is generally accepted that you can take the service before (and anyone who does realistically shouldn't have any issue) but that's not written anywhere I can see publicly.

This is true, and I think it's worth mentioning that the Northern page states that special arrangements will be made, however, there is no physical ticket office at Starbeck for these to be made.

Looking at https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/starbeck and Google Maps alike, there is not a ticket office to go to.

I would not mention anything about you being entitled to taking the train prior or after, instead, I would just stick to what took place, and mention what the Northern website states. With no ticket office, there is little that can be done in terms of these "special arrangements".

I would advise that you both email and write a letter back (ideally Signed For with proof of postage), to cover all basis, to prevent any "lost communication". What you write should be read over before sending to ensure that nothing is said that Northern could use against you.


I'm not sure if Northern has ever done this, but with other TOCs, it sometimes may be the case that court proceedings begin, but on the day of, the prosecutor drops the case; or if you manage to speak to them beforehand, they can drop the case for you, but let's hope that it doesn't get this far.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

The reason I suggest writing to the MD is that the prosecutions dept may be more likely to take seriously correspondence handed down from the MD`s office rather than direct from the customer.

Who has invented the ridiculous suggestion that an advance ticket for a cancelled train can only be used on the next rather than the previous train? What if it`s the last train of the day which is cancelled?

Northern have published an unequivocal statement that when your train is cancelled, you can use an alternative one. If this case were to go to court (which is surely unthinkable), Northern would be asking the Court to convict the passenger for an offence of which Northern, the prosecuting authority, was the prime instigator. It is Northern which breached the contract by cancelling the train. It is Northern which advised the passenger to use the alternative one. The statement on the Northern website is nothing radical. It`s just highlighting what it says in the Conditions of Travel and the PIDD.

 

[realemil]

We are steering off-topic very quickly, ultimately, we have to await for OP to write a letter for us to read over. Discussing what's written and what's not is not relevant.

Who has invented the ridiculous suggestion that an advance ticket for a cancelled train can only be used on the next rather than the previous train?

5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

This is the only part written which discusses being able to take a different train when you are delayed. It implies the train after your train was scheduled to depart. There is nothing else that implies the train before.

Northern have published an unequivocal statement that when your train is cancelled, you can use an alternative one

Do you have this statement please?


edit:
The Northern website, https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/service-updates says the following:

Additional Info​

We apologise for the cancellation of this train service today, please travel on the next available Northern service.

If you press on a canceled train.

edit 2:
Just for clarity, I disagree with Northern's actions, and OP should not be punished; however, the wording has to be in such a way where Northern will drop this before it escalates further, instead of simply blurting out claims without backing them up, to prevent Northern from turning around and saying "this is wrong".

 

[MrJeeves]

Do you have this statement please?

From post 4:

There is nothing stopping you from catching a different train if your service is cancelled. Just check Northern’s timetable to find an alternative train.

Delays and cancellations

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

I think this is kind of misinterpreting the intent of what's written, but that is what it says! I would say that's a good enough reason to get the train before/after and should be included in the reply.

 

[John R]

People keep saying this, but nothing on that page actually says this.

The closest there is mentioned delays enroute allowing you to take the next service. Nothing about the service earlier.

The "delays enroute" mention refers to the situation if you arrive for your first train on time, but it is delayed/cancelled, and so you miss the train for which your advance ticket is booked. You're entitled to catch the next one.

The relevant section is:-

8.4 If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

So how was the passenger advised of those special arrangements, when turning up at an unstaffed station? If they weren't, it is entirely reasonable that they take the train on either side of the cancelled one. In fact, taking the one before means that they will not be entitled to delay repay, which might be the case if they have to take the one after, so they actually potentially save the rail company money.

 

[Western Sunset]

As others have noted, in reply, I'd highlight the info in post #4:

Can I get a different train if mine is can if your service is cancelled. Just check Northern’s timetable to find an alternative train.​

This has to be the clincher to a successful resolution. A later (or earlier) train is "an alternative train". No if's or but's about that.

 

[spag23]

It implies the train after your train was scheduled to depart. There is nothing else that implies the train before.

If it meant to restrict the "alternative" train to a later one only, it would have used the words "later" or "following". It doesn't.
I take "Next" to mean the next suitable one to arrive following the announcement of the cancellation. Especially with clear ongoing disruption, as far as the passenger is concerned, even this earlier one might still get them to their destination later than planned.

 

[185]

The letters sent suggest this is not a penalty fare, but instead a TIR & Fixed Penalty Charge (aka Northern Penalty Fake) - issued as this definitely wouldn't comply with ordinary PF regulations. Regardless of which one it is, Northern are completely wrong and I have asked someone to have a look at the broader issue of NTL cancelling a train then inviting passengers to use alternative services then fining / prosecuting / stealing from them. Further, I've asked another organisation if Carlyle plc the revenue contractor business (not their staff) receives an incentive payment for issuance of penalties or reports.

 

[skyhigh]

Further, I've asked another organisation if Carlyle plc the revenue contractor business (not their staff) receives an incentive payment for issuance of penalties or reports.

This report wasn't issued by a Carlisle staff member.

 

[Marica M]

Here is what I drafted and planning to send to DRPU tomorrow again, following by a call to them as well:

In reference to your letters dated 21 November and 06 December 2023 , Ref NTLTIRxxxxx

On the 13th November I booked an advanced ticket for travel on the 15th of November 09:08 service
This was cancelled as you can see from https://timetables.trainsplit.com/times.aspx?uid=P55544&date=20231115

Travelling to work for an important meeting I could not be late and thus took the 08:40 service on 15th of November as per the advance ticket terms and conditions found at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/, refer to point 8.4 If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). It is also specified on Northern rail site in section Can I get a different train if mine is cancelled? - There is nothing stopping you from catching a different train if your service is cancelled. Just check Northern’s timetable to find an alternative train.

Train Cancellations

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

I would like to highlight that Starbeck station is an unstaffed one with no Northern rail personnel to advise on any special arrangements. Also at no point did the ticket conductor who inspected my e-ticket on the train asked me to pay another fare for the 8:40 service or difference in fare I already paid, nor did he explain to me the restrictions of the Advance tickets and especially that it wasn't allowing passengers to take an earlier train.

I will appreciate it if you could review the case once again as I believe the T&Cs of Advance tickets and the information on Northern rail site were rather misleading and consequently I am not liable to a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules. The train I had a valid ticket for was cancelled and I wasn't deliberately trying to avoid paying the right fare.

Thanks and regards,

___________________________________________________

 

[James H]

Small point but it's an 'Advance' ticket not an 'advanced' ticket