Fare Evasion - Sydenham - 13/12/2023

[MagisterLudi]

I'm not sure if this is in the right place but feel free to move.

Sydenham station at 12:40 today and an individual pushed straight through the barriers and onto the platform - no attempt to pay. I notified the station staff that he was still on the platform and they could not have looked less interested - walked off and missed an opportunity to engage and prevent him boarding a train.

Next train to Victoria arrived and we both boarded at separate points. I contacted Southern Railway on X who responded and asked me to report it to BTP as well. Contacted BTP who advised they would attend at Victoria and see if he was on the train. Advised me to speak to the station staff when I left the service. Another missed opportunity for a potential engagement (though I concede their locations are more restricted).

Approached station staff at Clapham Junction who said there is nothing they can do and they were too busy. It would have to be the police, Another missed opportunity for a potential engagement.

So, in short, a proverbial penalty kick in convicting for fare evasion and the railway decides it's too busy. I'm not expecting anything in the way of constructive debate or a change in staff attitude but, given some of the horror stories on here about the railway's fare collection methods from innocent passengers, this sort of attitude is unacceptable.

 

[jfollows]

I'm not sure if this is in the right place but feel free to move.

Disputes & Prosecutions section maybe; it will get moved there if so.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Unlikely said person would have got off at Victoria knowing it was heavily gated but I expect nothing will be done. Maybe said person will be coming here for advice as and when he gets caught

 

[Bluejays]

My first thoughts on reading would be that.
. There is a chance the staff reported it after you told them.

. Maybe this is a very regular occurrence there. I use a few overground and Thameslink stations regularly and people pushing through the barriers seems very very commonplace. It wouldn't be practical at all for station staff to attempt to intervene in every case.

In a perfect world I'd love to see a lot more RPI teams roaming the railways, to enable a much more proactive response to incidents like this. Although I'm sure that would lead to complaints of overbearing behaviour etc.


Low level antisocial crime like this seems to be extremely prevalent in a lot of places at the moment. I understand the anger, watching people turn up and rob blatantly from Greggs and pret has really riled me up recently, as do the fare evaders I encounter in work. But I do wonder if your anger is slightly misdirected, as you appear to be aiming the majority of it towards station staff. Who in many cases probably aren't particularly well equipped to deal with it. I wouldn't particularly fancy spending Christmas with a broken nose.


While the railway is a different world at times, I do think this is a case where parallels can be drawn. If you rang the police because you'd witnessed shoplifting, or if you rang a shop to let them know you'd witnessed someone stealing I don't think you'd get much more of a response.

 

[MagisterLudi]

My first thoughts on reading would be that.
. There is a chance the staff reported it after you told them.

. Maybe this is a very regular occurrence there. I use a few overground and Thameslink stations regularly and people pushing through the barriers seems very very commonplace. It wouldn't be practical at all for station staff to attempt to intervene in every case.

In a perfect world I'd love to see a lot more RPI teams roaming the railways, to enable a much more proactive response to incidents like this. Although I'm sure that would lead to complaints of overbearing behaviour etc.


Low level antisocial crime like this seems to be extremely prevalent in a lot of places at the moment. I understand the anger, watching people turn up and rob blatantly from Greggs and pret has really riled me up recently, as do the fare evaders I encounter in work. But I do wonder if your anger is slightly misdirected, as you appear to be aiming the majority of it towards station staff. Who in many cases probably aren't particularly well equipped to deal with it. I wouldn't particularly fancy spending Christmas with a broken nose.


While the railway is a different world at times, I do think this is a case where parallels can be drawn. If you rang the police because you'd witnessed shoplifting, or if you rang a shop to let them know you'd witnessed someone stealing I don't think you'd get much more of a response.

It is a regular occurrence. Staff stand by each time and watch it happen. This does not mean that failing to make an attempt to prevent it is correct.

The member of staff in question wandered off to talk to someone at the ticket machine then returned to the barrier. They were still there and had made no attempt to report or suchlike by the time we boarded the train.

My anger is not misdirected. If you work in a role where it's highly likely you will encounter criminal activity and are unwilling to make even the basic effort to prevent it, find another job.

This still does not make the response correct or excusable.

 

[Bluejays]

It is a regular occurrence. Staff stand by each time and watch it happen. This does not mean that failing to make an attempt to prevent it is correct.

The member of staff in question wandered off to talk to someone at the ticket machine then returned to the barrier. They were still there and had made no attempt to report or suchlike by the time we boarded the train.

My anger is not misdirected. If you work in a role where it's highly likely you will encounter criminal activity and are unwilling to make even the basic effort to prevent it, find another job.

This still does not make the response correct or excusable.

Interested as to what you think the correct response would be?

 

[MagisterLudi]

Interested as to what you think the correct response would be?

Engage the party in question and demand proof of fare payment, as you would on a train.

 

[SWT_USER]

Generally speaking revenue protection will only go for low hanging fruit. They won't go after the big tough guys who may fight back (unless it's a full block with BTP present etc).

 

[Bluejays]

Engage the party in question and demand proof of fare payment, as you would on a train.

And if they tell you to f off, threaten you with violence what then? I mean let's face it, we are talking about people who are happy to blatantly push through a barrier in full view of other people. Do we think they're going to calm down and agree to pay? We'd be talking about numerous assaults and police being called numerous times a day (they probably wouldn't be able to turn up on most occasions as they are massively overstretched themselves).



I think there are great conversations to be had around this topic . Should we have more btp?, more rpi's?, better methods given to frontline staff to enable them to report things like this, targeted stings at hotspots. Unfortunately it seems like your idea of improvement boils down to 'old bob on the gate line getting himself filled in 3 times a shift'. (Maybe a slight exaggeration on my part in the last sentence, although at certain stations it would probably be accurate)

 

[MagisterLudi]

And if they tell you to f off, threaten you with violence what then? I mean let's face it, we are talking about people who are happy to blatantly push through a barrier in full view of other people. Do we think they're going to calm down and agree to pay? We'd be talking about numerous assaults and police being called numerous times a day (they probably wouldn't be able to turn up on most occasions as they are massively overstretched themselves).



I think there are great conversations to be had around this topic . Should we have more btp?, more rpi's?, better methods given to frontline staff to enable them to report things like this, targeted stings at hotspots. Unfortunately it seems like your idea of improvement boils down to 'old bob on the gate line getting himself filled in 3 times a shift'. (Maybe a slight exaggeration on my part in the last sentence, although at certain stations it would probably be accurate)

I'd say it's more than a slight exaggeration. It's fascinating how the railway is happy to impose draconian punishments when it comes to dealing with people who don't have railcards, correct tickets etc but when they're asked to deal with obvious evasion it's a case of "not my job, guv". As the other poster said - "low hanging fruit" - which probably costs the railway less than this type of evasion. Says it all really.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

OK, but most TOC platform/gateline staff are advised not to engage with passengers who haven't apparently got a ticket, given the risk of passenger aggression. This advice is unfortunately sensible and it is not likely that it is going to change soon. And exit barriers are just as easy to get through as entry barriers: at busy stages it is quite easy to tailgate. LUL clear has much the same problem.....

So just one of the things we have to cope with, until significant more resources are available for revenue protection and BTP support.

 

[jon81uk]

Generally speaking revenue protection will only go for low hanging fruit. They won't go after the big tough guys who may fight back (unless it's a full block with BTP present etc).

and general customer service staff at barriers are not revenue protection anyway.

 

[dangerousdids2]

A job for transport police mainly. Platform staff can't really say or do anything within the law! If they try to forcibly remove the offenders they are breaking the law and are more than likely to be assaulted or abused if they say anything.

If you were on a train with no ticket the ticket inspector can ask you to leave the train and that's about it. If you refuse to move all he/she can do is call the police. And all that does is delay the train until the police arrive!

 

[Bluejays]

I'd say it's more than a slight exaggeration. It's fascinating how the railway is happy to impose draconian punishments when it comes to dealing with people who don't have railcards, correct tickets etc but when they're asked to deal with obvious evasion it's a case of "not my job, guv". As the other poster said - "low hanging fruit" - which probably costs the railway less than this type of evasion. Says it all really.

I think again you are getting things confused/mixed up . For what it's worth I actually agree with you in what you say about the attitude of 'the railway' , in my personal opinion yes they do seem to like hammering people for things like railcards rather than the out and out evaders.

But you aren't really asking in your posts for structural change to go after these people. You're just suggesting that gate line staff(who may or may not be lone working) get involved in numerous bouts of confrontation daily

 

[mrmartin]

I totally agree. Revenue enforcement seems in my eyes to be much more setup for penalizing people who have the wrong ticket/railcard, rather than blatant continuous fare evasion, which makes the railway feel unsafe and probably contributes to a lot of the very anti social behaviour.

It seems completely disproportionate to me reading a lot of the stories on this forum of worry and anxiety for in my eyes for often innocent 'fare evasion' like not renewing railcard, then you see tough guys jump over barriers continuously without a care in the world.

What's ironic in my eyes is that many buses are much stricter on fare evasion, if you just jump on a bus you'll often get called back and the bus won't leave until they get off again. This is with 1 member of staff who also has to drive the bus! Whereas on the railway with a whole suite of staff (guards, station staff, RPIs) often nothing is done whatsoever for blatant fare evasion.

 

[dangerousdids2]

Its a hell of a lot better than it was anyway. When I was a youngster you could pretty much travel the length of the country without buying a ticket.

 

[Bluejays]

If you were on a train with no ticket the ticket inspector can ask you to leave the train and that's about it. If you refuse to move all he/she can do is call the police. And all that does is delay the train until the police arrive!

Very true, it's drummed into you in training and from management that you don't delay a train for fare evaders. Unfortunately some people (such as myself) can be a bit too daft to really take heed. So, fresh out of training I was met with a particularly intransigent fare evader. Train delayed for 12 minutes while revenue and btp arrived.

I was left in absolutely no doubt whatsoever after that incident that it is very much not what the company expect us to do. 2 very uncomfortable meetings I had after it, aswell as emails from parts of the company I didn't even know existed

 

[800001]

In my opinion someone who forces there way through the barrier, is not going to engage with station staff if they approach them and ask them to purchase a ticket, more likely to cause a scene both verbally and potentially physically.

 

[Bluejays]

Its a hell of a lot better than it was anyway. When I was a youngster you could pretty much travel the length of the country without buying a ticket.

From the stories I've heard from fellow football fans I always wonder about the old football specials. I have visions of about 900 onboard with 3 tickets between them

In my opinion someone who forces there way through the barrier, is not going to engage with station staff if they approach them and ask them to purchase a ticket, more likely to cause a scene both verbally and potentially physically.

Totally agree

 

[FOH]

I'm surprised though the evasion isn't logged for inspector teams to target repeat offenders same time every day style. I agree and said it before that the staff appear totally disinterested at dealing with evaders and yet will happily pounce on a granny making a ticketing mistake

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I think there are great conversations to be had around this topic . Should we have more btp?, more rpi's?, better methods given to frontline staff to enable them to report things like this, targeted stings at hotspots. Unfortunately it seems like your idea of improvement boils down to 'old bob on the gate line getting himself filled in 3 times a shift'. (Maybe a slight exaggeration on my part in the last sentence, although at certain stations it would probably be accurate)

In the spirit of this post, a "What if?" ...

What if all or some (senior?) gateline / frontline staff were "skilled up", paid accordingly, trained in dealing with confrontation, and qualified for an SIA license? Could we then go after the barrier jumpers/pushers? Or is it still "too dangerous"? (Open question)

 

[dangerousdids2]

I'm surprised though the evasion isn't logged for inspector teams to target repeat offenders same time every day style. I agree and said it before that the staff appear totally disinterested at dealing with evaders and yet will happily pounce on a granny making a ticketing mistake

They do target certain stations at certain times, accompanied by transport police waiting for repeat offenders.

 

[MagisterLudi]

OK, but most TOC platform/gateline staff are advised not to engage with passengers who haven't apparently got a ticket, given the risk of passenger aggression. This advice is unfortunately sensible and it is not likely that it is going to change soon. And exit barriers are just as easy to get through as entry barriers: at busy stages it is quite easy to tailgate. LUL clear has much the same problem.....

So just one of the things we have to cope with, until significant more resources are available for revenue protection and BTP support.

They do target certain stations at certain times, accompanied by transport police waiting for repeat offenders.

If they targeted Sydenham then ASLEF's ransom demand, sorry, pay request could easily be met.

 

[800001]

If they targeted Sydenham then ASLEF's ransom demand, sorry, pay request could easily be met.

don’t turn this into a union bashing post

 

[dangerousdids2]

From the stories I've heard from fellow football fans I always wonder about the old football specials. I have visions of about 900 onboard with 3 tickets between them


Totally agree

The ticket inspector would stay safely in their compartment and tbh I don't blame them. Back then you wouldn't dare lay a hand on railway staff but still, a load of footie fans can be intimidating.

There was one in particular that we would chant his favorite team and he would just walk on by and check every one else's tickets.

I'm not proud of it but I could get on several trains from down south all the way up to yorkshire and not even get asked for a ticket. The only barriers in existence at the time was at large stations in London. Kings cross etc.

 

[75A]

From the stories I've heard from fellow football fans I always wonder about the old football specials. I have visions of about 900 onboard with 3 tickets between them


Totally agree

I've been on dozens over the years and on most of them your ticket is checked at the 'home' station but never @ the 'away' one. Places like Longport, Parson St, Smethwick Rolfe St to name but 3 are just happy to see the back of you

 

[800001]

In the spirit of this post, a "What if?" ...

What if all or some (senior?) gateline / frontline staff were "skilled up", paid accordingly, trained in dealing with confrontation, and qualified for an SIA license? Could we then go after the barrier jumpers/pushers? Or is it still "too dangerous"? (Open question)

Often when btp and station teams do revenue stops, the people fare evading often have other outstanding markers for criminal activity.
I for one even if trained in confrontation, would not be attempting to speak to a person on my own to get them to pay a fare.

 

[dangerousdids2]

If they targeted Sydenham then ASLEF's ransom demand, sorry, pay request could easily be met.

Staff pay has nothing to do with fare evaders! That's more to do with rail companies being tight.

 

[MagisterLudi]

don’t turn this into a union bashing post

It's quite difficult not to when you witness how staff can so blatantly ignore someone committing criminal activity and remain in their roles.

 

[87015]

It's quite difficult not to when you witness how staff can so blatantly ignore someone committing criminal activity and remain in their roles.

Far more likely to be agency than unionised, you might want to move that claim to moves aimed at reducing union influence.