Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

[Mcr Warrior]

Just for the record, which Northern routes were completely binned off / didn't operate today?

 

[Red Rover]

Because if they don't work the trains get cancelled and as a consequence some people may not get to see their loved ones on Christmas Day.

I'm not suggesting Northern guards should spend the entire festive period at work; the fact there are no trains Christmas Day and Boxing Day means they'll all get at least two days off, arguably the two days most working people would want off.

And what's wrong with making strangers happy? At risk of sounding oversentimental, isn't that what Christmas is all about: goodwill to all men and all that?

I find goodwill at short supply at midnight when people are drunk and abusive and fighting as they're being refused to use the train.

 

[dk1]

Greater Anglia has WAGN, FGE inner/outer, Anglia, and maybe more that ive forgotten about

No that’s correct. We work as 3 seperate companies drivers conditions wise Anglia Railways, Great Eastern & West Anglia. An attempt was made to harmonise in 2005 then again in 2019 but both were rejected. When Abellio took over in February 2012 they stated from day one they were not interested in opening that can of worms.

 

[Rail Quest]

Just for the record, which Northern routes were completely binned off / didn't operate today?

No services at all today on Mid Cheshire line today (Manchester to Chester via Altrincham) so that'll be one

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The thing here is that Northern probably knew this months ago but it's a brave manager who would have decided to reduce the Christmas eve service November and pretty career limiting because all the options to solve it wouldn't be allowed, bonus rate enough to tempt people to work would be vetoed by DFT. Reducing the service early would have created a fuss that the transport secretary would backed in a corner.

This week of course is fate compli, nothing realistically can be done, political fuss when everyone is on holiday and by Jan when parliament is back everything is forgotten..

So best outcome has been achieved for DFT and Northern

 

[uww11x]

Large retail shops have restricted opening hours on a Sunday. 10am until 1600. Sunday trading Act 1994.

Oh and the same Act of parliament gives shop workers the right to:

Opt out of Sunday working!!!​

A bit off topic sorry.

Unless you work in a bookies

 

[357]

No that’s correct. We work as 3 seperate companies drivers conditions wise Anglia Railways, Great Eastern & West Anglia. An attempt was made to harmonise in 2005 then again in 2019 but both were rejected. When Abellio took over in February 2012 they stated from day one they were not interested in opening that can of worms.

On stations it's more as there is FGE "Metro" and FGE "Outer". Metro covered Shenfield to London. My contract was signed under NX and was "London Eastern Railway Company" T&C's

 

[greatkingrat]

On stations it's more as there is FGE "Metro" and FGE "Outer". Metro covered Shenfield to London. My contract was signed under NX and was "London Eastern Railway Company" T&C's

Would all the FGE Metro staff have TUPEd over to MTR Crossrail?

 

[Killingworth]

Looking at Hope Valley, Manchester-Sheffield, Northern have put on 5 car instead of the usual 3. For 4 return trips all day. Better than nothing but only just if relying on those that were cancelled.

As the line is closed for engineering work for the next 2 days it might have been helpful if that could have been extended to include today. Joined up thinking that was not.

Nik Donovan often makes the point that on Sundays he's running a volunteer railway. That's long been understood. The problem today is that the practical realities weren't.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I find goodwill at short supply at midnight when people are drunk and abusive and fighting as they're being refused to use the train.

As services finish around 7 to 8pm on Christmas Eve, that's not really an issue today, is it?

 

[dk1]

As services finish around 7 to 8pm on Christmas Eve, that's not really an issue today, is it?

Oh I don’t know, speaking from personal experience Christmas Eve is an all day drinking binge. 20:00 is the midnight on this day.

 

[AndrewE]

Just for the record, which Northern routes were completely binned off / didn't operate today?

National rail says

Do Not Travel on the routes below today, Sunday 24 December:

• Morecambe / Heysham – Lancaster
• Blackpool South – Colne
• Wigan – Stalybridge
• Clitheroe – Manchester Victoria
• Manchester Victoria – Chester
• Manchester Piccadilly – Chester (via Altrincham)
• Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe

 

[357]

Would all the FGE Metro staff have TUPEd over to MTR Crossrail?

No. Liverpool Street and Shenfield remained GA, and MTR refused to take on the cleaners and attempted to TUPE them into Interserve - where they would have lost their pension, passes, etc. GA put their foot down and said that they can take any vacancy anywhere on the GA network but wouldn't be able to offer traveling time, and the entire cleaning team found new positions.

 

[Red Rover]

As services finish around 7 to 8pm on Christmas Eve, that's not really an issue today, is it?

I'm not in but the last service out of Lime St was about 2330 to Cre I think. New Years Eve the same also.

 

[dk1]

I'm not in but the last service out of Lime St was about 2330 to Cre I think. New Years Eve the same also.

Wonder why they run so late on Christmas Eve?

 

[Red Rover]

Wonder why they run so late on Christmas Eve?

I think it was a London North Western, I don't know why to be honest, the staff having to stay for one train wouldn't make them happy I'd say.

 

[td97]

Overhead line damage occurred near Stoke around 18:00 resulting in a line closure. Amazing how Network Rail provided short-notice replacement buses, whilst Northern were apparently unable to do so to account for their own incompetence on the lines affected by "traincrew shortages".

 

[Red Rover]

I've just looked and the last service is the TFW LIV-CTR at 2135, I thought it was later, maybe I was mistaken or they cancelled as they didn't have the staff?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've just looked and the last service is the TFW LIV-CTR at 2135, I thought it was later, maybe I was mistaken or they cancelled as they didn't have the staff?

Probably ending early because Christmas Eve, the cancellation isn't a recent one for the last two.

 

[dk1]

I think it was a London North Western, I don't know why to be honest, the staff having to stay for one train wouldn't make them happy I'd say.

Certainly wouldn’t. Sounds like punishment.

 

[trainophile]

Put any major (and maybe not so major) station into RTT now and see someone's great sense of humour.

 

[Trainguy34]

Put any major (and maybe not so major) station into RTT now and see someone's great sense of humour.

Hauled by Rudolph the Red Nosed Powercar don't forget! Might go and see it at my local station if I get a chance...

 

[wilbers]

Its "departed" 4 minutes earlier than scheduled.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Might be down to differences in contract. Commited on East compared to voluntary on West. But yes either way it will likely cause some resentment

Not so - it represents an 'above contract enhancement'.

 

[BoroAndy]

Crew rostering is done as little as 72 hours in advance. You maybe thinking of crew links which are done months in advance. However in this instance at Northern on FNW t&c (west side) a guard can "sign off" Sundays with 7 days notice. This includes booked Sundays.

Guards are not contractually force to work them if they decide not to as long as they follow the correct procedure. Drivers are different in that they have to work their booked Sundays unless cover can be found for their shift by another driver willing to do overtime.

Nowhere has any employee (ok maybe the odd one in a rare occasion) said "oh I don't want to work tomorrow". Of course if they have then yes they have faced action as per the contract.

Hope that clears things up a little...

OK thankyou

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Various GWR crew also have a similar arrangement for Sundays as Northern does here but they don’t seem to be having such an issue so perhaps there was a better incentive there?

2.25x normal pay. Drivers were almost on hourly what guards at Northern were belatedly offered for a full shift.

 

[al78]

Looks to me that the issue is staff on the West not wanting to work overtime on Christmas Eve. Not sure how they could avoid this really as if people don't want to work overtime there's not a lot you can do!

They could try future mitigation attempts by employing sufficient staff so they are not dependent on voluntary overtime. I appreciate employing enough staff is a novel thing in the UK, it would be like expecting to shop at my local Tesco supermarket without them frequently having run out of at least one thing I want no matter what time I go.

 

[ainsworth74]

They could try future mitigation attempts by employing sufficient staff so they are not dependent on voluntary overtime. I appreciate employing enough staff is a novel thing in the UK, it would be like expecting to shop at my local Tesco supermarket without them frequently having run out of at least one thing I want no matter what time I go.

But they'd have to hire the new staff on new contracts (as otherwise we're back in the same position just with more staff who can opt out of working Sunday's) and get the DfT and HM Treasury to sign off on the increased headcount and resulting increased costs. None of these things are impossible but neither are they as easy as "just hire sufficient staff".

 

[sportzbar]

They could try future mitigation attempts by employing sufficient staff so they are not dependent on voluntary overtime. I appreciate employing enough staff is a novel thing in the UK, it would be like expecting to shop at my local Tesco supermarket without them frequently having run out of at least one thing I want no matter what time I go.

Exactly this. It could be solved very easily by offering a decent t&c compensation package to bring Sundays inside the working week so it's not reliant on overtime. However it does mean employing more staff which increases costs for the TOC including pension contributions ( which currently aren't included in Sunday working due to it being overtime).

More staff = more training costs, more NI contributions, more pension contributions etc. that extra cost has to be found somewhere and it won't be the DFT loosening the purse strings. So the company and the DFT are happy to pay the overtime as it actually costs them less that way. It works when every is ticking along nicely, but when the goodwill is gone......

As for the unions, they actually want Sundays inside the working week as it means more members and more subscriptions....

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Exactly this. It could be solved very easily by offering a decent t&c compensation package to bring Sundays inside the working week so it's not reliant on overtime. However it does mean employing more staff which increases costs for the TOC including pension contributions ( which currently aren't included in Sunday working due to it being overtime).

More staff = more training costs, more NI contributions, more pension contributions etc. that extra cost has to be found somewhere and it won't be the DFT loosening the purse strings. So the company and the DFT are happy to pay the overtime as it actually costs them less that way. It works when every is ticking along nicely, but when the goodwill is gone......

As for the unions, they actually want Sundays inside the working week as it means more members and more subscriptions....

There's always that Balance between giving overtime and sharing the extra money with existing employees and adding extra staff to cover Sundays. The rule generally wherever I've worked is that overtime should be for exceptional circumstances and if it becomes regular then employ more people