Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

[Falcon1200]

Wales has just done it with TfW.

Interesting, thanks. I wonder if there is any information on the how that (bringing Sundays into the working week) has affected the cost of running the service?

The TOC has chosen to be in the position of being entirely reliant on volunteers to crew services on Sundays; yet has failed to offer a big enough incentive to staff to come to work on Xmas eve (when naturally there are far fewer volunteers than normal), or to make other arrangements for passengers.

Which has led to the unsurprising, and desperate, situation that Northern, and more importantly their passengers, have found themselves in today.

We rarely had an issue covering Sundays as the time & 3/4 was very attractive.

I can't recall many, or indeed any, occasions when a Sunday shift was left uncovered because the rostered person refused to work and no other cover was available, although as you say the pay offered for an additional Sunday turn was a great incentive to work. I can certainly vouch for that.......

 

[Bluejays]

I don't think a certain Michael Lynch would be happy if the Government or Train Operators Dare to suggest that Sundays should be added to the working week

In the spirit of Christmas.


Oh yes he would

 

[Andyh82]

Yes he's been quite insistent that they should be included within the working week not added to to the working week as enforced overtime. What's unreasonable about that?

Included in the working week like any other day, or with some extensive and very generous strings attached that no TOC would ever agree to?

Even though you say they want it, I can’t imagine the RMT being in agreement to make ‘hard working members being forced to lose their family time by fat cat rail bosses and the Tory government’ without a generous offer

 

[Bluejays]

I thought crew rosters were done weeks or months in advance. "oh I don't want to work tomorrow" should be a disciplinary matter in any workplace if no good reason given

You thought wrong . As has been mentioned earlier on this thread they are done a few days in advance.

Now of course, the companies themselves could have tried to have been proactive and got it sorted earlier, but they didn't.

 

[bramling]

Included in the working week like any other day, or with some extensive and very generous strings attached that no TOC would ever agree to?

Even though you say they want it, I can’t imagine the RMT being in agreement to make ‘hard working members being forced to lose their family time by fat cat rail bosses and the Tory government’ without a generous offer

Why shouldn’t any such offer be generous?

If we want people to work on a day which much of society still regards as unsocial then it’s only reasonable that the remuneration is fair - especially since the goalposts would be being moved compared to what people originally signed up to.

 

[trainophile]

Good to see Merseyrail currently showing running on the Northern Line (Southport) right up until 20:53 from Central tonight. I wonder what their incentive is.

 

[Train_manager]

Good to see Merseyrail currently showing running on the Northern Line (Southport) right up until 20:53 from Central tonight. I wonder what their incentive is.

7.1% payrise for 2022. Don't know what the offer was for 2023.

Amazing what can happen when the Tory government doesn't get involved.

 

[Somewhere]

One for a different thread perhaps, but should the WCML (and for that matter the ECML) run more like GWR so that the local trains are provided by the same company?

There will always be overlaps (CrossCountry, TPE and TfW) in the case of the WCML, but reduced overlaps would limit the extent to which part failure (in this case the local connections) causes damage to the other part.

Down in the South West, CrossCountry and GWR were off at the same time.

You could, but then staff from the separate companies would remain on different contracts once the new employer has taken over. Like GTR in the south, staff for Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink/GN are all on different T&Cs

 

[sportzbar]

So, in the case of Northern Guards are Sundays not part of their roster, so they know in advance when they are expected to work? If so, that is the worst of all possible worlds, and it is not surprising that issues such as those today can arise.

Northern guards on FNW contracts do have booked Sundays within their link. They do not have to work them if they do not wish to. They also have a clause in the contract that means they are presumed to be available to work other Sundays unless they sign the non availability sheets at least 7 days in advance (these sheets cover Sundays 12 months ahead).

So booked Sundays are part of a guards link but not necessarily part of their roster unless they haven't signed the non availability sheets in which case it does become part of the roster.

The vast majority of guards signed today off months ago on the sheets so this should not be a surprise to rosters and management in general but as usual it's left to the last minute in the hope of a miracle.....

 

[D6130]

Most Calder Valley services running OK this morning, with the odd cancellation here and there due, no doubt, to the fact that they are diagrammed for a Blackpool or Manchester conductor.

 

[43066]

Which has led to the unsurprising, and desperate, situation that Northern, and more importantly their passengers, have found themselves in today.

Yes, and the blame for that lies entirely at Northern’s door, not that of staff members who are simply choosing to spend their time off away from work.

Why shouldn’t any such offer be generous?

If we want people to work on a day which much of society still regards as unsocial then it’s only reasonable that the remuneration is fair - especially since the goalposts would be being moved compared to what people originally signed up to.

Indeed. Especially at a time when the cost of labour has risen significantly across the wider economy.

 

[Potatopotato]

Just noticed northern have laid on a bus replacement service for Carlisle to Lancaster via Barrow, departing just after midday and reaching Lancaster at 7pm....would make a great day out for any bus enthusiasts.

 

[philthetube]

You can prepare plans in advance. They didn't find out that staff didn't want to work yesterday. Or if they did they're incompetent!

(You can also get buses in. Yes, it might be a challenge getting drivers, but if you offer enough pay someone will - it might be costly but if you paid 50 quid an hour you would certainly get volunteers!)

There's not really a shortage of availability. There's good availability at market rates. Market rate for Christmas Eve 0800 - 1600 will be in the region of £1k all in, bus and driver. Plenty local independents happy to provide at that rate, plenty drivers willing to do it as they'll be sipping their Christmas Eve cocoa with their families by 1700 and a nice bit of cash in the bank for their trouble.

To take Blackpool Colne as an example, this could have easily have been covered by Blackpool corp, if they struggled for drivers, Transpora could have helped out, I know there are potential issues but if the price was right something could have been sorted. Loads of drivers sitting at home twiddling their thumbs as no school work.

People should just turn up for work, the same as the rest of us do.


Which the industry should have faced down and dealt with long ago. Their fault, and the government's fault, for not forcing change. No one else's.

I suppose so. I guess I'm looking at it from my own working life, an office job in the private sector so not as challenging or stressful as on the railways. I regularly stayed late for a couple of hours, or went in at weekends, unpaid, to keep on top of my workload in busy periods, and never really begrudged it. It needed doing and it was my responsibility. No technology to work from home in those days.

Many people will on occasions, to have to do it regularly is exploitation.

Many people will do favours to help out their company, when these favours are expected then no chance.

 

[AMD]

Most Calder Valley services running OK this morning, with the odd cancellation here and there due, no doubt, to the fact that they are diagrammed for a Blackpool or Manchester conductor.

They'll be running with Leeds conductors, who are east side and have different Ts & Cs ie if they have a 'booked' Sunday they have to work it unless they get someone to cover it for them. There's very few Blackpool or Victoria conductors in today as both depots are on west side T&C

 

[dk1]

I thought crew rosters were done weeks or months in advance. "oh I don't want to work tomorrow" should be a disciplinary matter in any workplace if no good reason given

You thought wrong

 

[trainophile]

Just noticed northern have laid on a bus replacement service for Carlisle to Lancaster via Barrow, departing just after midday and reaching Lancaster at 7pm....would make a great day out for any bus enthusiasts.

If it really is a "bus" rather than a coach they're going to need a couple of comfort stops on that one!

 

[TheEastAnglian]

I've flicked through the first 5 pages, but has anyone mentioned, if there are problems today (Christmas Eve) with train crew not wanting to turn in, there is likely to be a repeat in a week's time on *Checks Date* ... New Year's Eve?

This would have been known about for quite sometime by rosters when they would have been receiving emails saying Joe Bloggs Conductor, wish to make my self not available to work Sunday 24th December... It's not like Christmas Eve doesn't come round like clockwork each year and every 7 years on a Sunday?

The big issue on the railway at the moment is staff morale, thats across all TOC's, its poor and the industry is to blame. Staff get abuse from passengers daily, there is poor industrial relations between staff and management, it's a toxic combination when T&C's align and give the result we see today and probably next week with some operators.

 

[Train_manager]

I thought crew rosters were done weeks or months in advance. "oh I don't want to work tomorrow" should be a disciplinary matter in any workplace if no good reason given

Let's bash the railway workers again!! and not the management or the DFT or even the Tory government

Voluntary means it's voluntary. What do you not understand?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

doesn't come round like clockwork each year and every 7 years on a Sunday?

Because of Leap Years it's not 7 years apart, the pattern is +11,+6,+5,+6 years between Christmas Eve Sundays, and will get messed up in 2100 because no leap year on years divisible by 100, except when it's divisible by 400.

2006 (+11) 2017 (+6) 2023 (+5) 2028 (+6) 2034 (+11) 2045

 

[Starmill]

Northern have at last put in place blanket ticket acceptance with Transport for Wales and TransPennine Express. Thank heavens for that.

 

[Watershed]

Northern have at last put in place blanket ticket acceptance with Transport for Wales and TransPennine Express. Thank heavens for that.

Far too little, far too late. Yet again the railway shoots itself in the foot.

 

[357]

It seems ok on the north east side - is this another situation where mergers have created areas within the same company having differing terms and conditions?

Greater Anglia has WAGN, FGE inner/outer, Anglia, and maybe more that ive forgotten about

 

[Howardh]

No intention to travel today by rail or bus, but out of interest looked at Northern's schedule for later this afternoon - well, to be frank it would be better if they'd cancelled the whole day rather than the majority of trains off and pax scrambling around for scraps. At least they could plan alternatives knowing there won't be a service.

Next year Xmas Eve falls on a Tuesday (I think, allowing for the leap year) so what kind of service will we have then, on a "working" day??

 

[northwichcat]

I've flicked through the first 5 pages, but has anyone mentioned, if there are problems today (Christmas Eve) with train crew not wanting to turn in, there is likely to be a repeat in a week's time on *Checks Date* ... New Year's Eve?

Today it looks like there was minimal, if any, engineering works planned. Next Sunday New Mills Central to Sheffield is closed, as is Bolton to Manchester and the Atherton line. That should hopefully mean fewer last minute changes.

Next year Xmas Eve falls on a Tuesday (I think, allowing for the leap year) so what kind of service will we have then, on a "working" day??

Last year I recall there was a strike on Christmas Eve, so we can't use 2022 as an example. December 2020 and 2021 both had reduced timetables already due to COVID related reasons.

well, to be frank it would be better if they'd cancelled the whole day rather than the majority of trains off and pax scrambling around for scraps. At least they could plan alternatives knowing there won't be a service.

What if the 'alternative' is getting a taxi/lift to another station that still has a service?

I think it's better that Northern are providing a limited service at some stations than passengers arranging their own transport to stations served by Avanti/TfW/TPE/XC. Parking and taxi drop off at places like Wilmslow is bad enough on a normal day.

 

[70014IronDuke]

No intention to travel today by rail or bus, but out of interest looked at Northern's schedule for later this afternoon - well, to be frank it would be better if they'd cancelled the whole day rather than the majority of trains off and pax scrambling around for scraps. At least they could plan alternatives knowing there won't be a service.
...

Maybe in your area of concern, but the S&C and Bentham lines seem to be working a 100% service so far today - 2H92 delayed about 30' at Skipton about the only problem appearing on RTT.

I suspect the trains are largely empty because of the Do Not Travel instuction, alas.

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe in your area of concern, but the S&C and Bentham lines seem to be working a 100% service so far today - 2H92 delayed about 30' at Skipton about the only problem appearing on RTT.

Crewed by the East side of Northern of course where Sundays are committed...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just noticed northern have laid on a bus replacement service for Carlisle to Lancaster via Barrow, departing just after midday and reaching Lancaster at 7pm....would make a great day out for any bus enthusiasts.

There do appear to be a few buses on today. I suspect they weren't advertised in advance so they didn't get swamped.

Surprised they've done nowt for Colne though. Blackpool S maybe less of an issue as there are plenty of buses at its local stations, and many people will be quids in with a refund and a £2 bus fare.

 

[Krokodil]

Interesting, thanks. I wonder if there is any information on the how that (bringing Sundays into the working week) has affected the cost of running the service?

I think that the increase in basic pay works out around 20% by the time that it's all implemented. Plus the cost of increasing staffing complements (I'll guess by a sixth) to cover seven days instead of six. At the same time you don't have to pay enhanced rates any more and you have a more reliable service so aren't being fined for cancellations, having to refund passengers, or having to shell out for buses.

Included in the working week like any other day, or with some extensive and very generous strings attached that no TOC would ever agree to?

Even though you say they want it, I can’t imagine the RMT being in agreement to make ‘hard working members being forced to lose their family time by fat cat rail bosses and the Tory government’ without a generous offer

Several TOCs (most recently TfW) have agreed with RMT to bring Sundays inside the working week. The terms can't be that unpalatable therefore.

and will get messed up in 2100 because no leap year on years divisible by 100, except when it's divisible by 400.

That'll be Pope Gregory and his outdated working practices (as the government might put it). Why can't the Earth orbit the Sun at regular intervals?

Next year Xmas Eve falls on a Tuesday (I think, allowing for the leap year) so what kind of service will we have then, on a "working" day??

Probably the similar to any other Tuesday (erring towards the ones more difficult to cover so look at performance during school holidays for a comparison).

 

[Horizon22]

So, in the case of Northern Guards are Sundays not part of their roster, so they know in advance when they are expected to work? If so, that is the worst of all possible worlds, and it is not surprising that issues such as those today can arise.

Correct. You were on “committed Sundays” which is a bit of a fudge but does normally get takers and is closer to being part of the working week. Here it is essentially voluntary overtime & can be chucked in with enough notice.

Various GWR crew also have a similar arrangement for Sundays as Northern does here but they don’t seem to be having such an issue so perhaps there was a better incentive there?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GTR managed to deliver all Southerns on the Brighton Line so far but a few Thameslink have gone missing so another operator that have a set of T&C's that can deliver an Xmas Eve Sunday. Its about time RDG worked with the unions to find a solution or probably a range of T&C solutions and put them to the DafT for consideration.