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First Group Sheffield - London via Retford open access proposal

James90012

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A flat crossing at Retford on the ECML which is only going to get busier cannot be the right use of capacity - I'm sure there is technical space but this is the two track section... I have family in Worksop and they do drive to Retford or Doncaster to pick up services, so there is something in that but I don't think this is the way to solve that problem.
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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A flat crossing at Retford on the ECML which is only going to get busier cannot be the right use of capacity - I'm sure there is technical space but this is the two track section... I have family in Worksop and they do drive to Retford or Doncaster to pick up services, so there is something in that but I don't think this is the way to solve that problem.

There is no flat crossing at Retford do you mean Newark?
 

James90012

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In the Up direction the proposed service will need to cross to Down ECML to the south of Retford - the crossover isn't even immediately at the end of the platforms so realistically each Up move will take up at least 2 Down paths, which may not be timetabled but are key for recovery.
 

ricoblade

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In the Up direction the proposed service will need to cross to Down ECML to the south of Retford - the crossover isn't even immediately at the end of the platforms so realistically each Up move will take up at least 2 Down paths, which may not be timetabled but are key for recovery.

I've just looked at the satellite view on Google Maps and the 4 tracks south of Retford (P1, up and down fast and P2) converge into 2 tracks to cross the River Idle approx. 1/3 mile just south of the station.
 

RobShipway

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Absolutely no chance of 180 sets - they can rot. The proposed stock is either 221 or 222 sets.
I suspect that it would more likely be 221 from AWC than the 222's from EMR as they would be released sooner?

We know that seven of the 18 AWC class 221 will be going to XC. This leaves the remaining 11, with First Group Sheffield requiring 6 - 8 units out of the 11 units available for it's services. The rest would either go to Grand Central or XC or be used for spares.
 

CarrotPie

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I suspect that it would more likely be 221 from AWC than the 222's from EMR as they would be released sooner?

We know that seven of the 18 AWC class 221 will be going to XC. This leaves the remaining 11, with First Group Sheffield requiring 6 - 8 units out of the 11 units available for its services. The rest would either go to Grand Central or XC or be used for spares.
The 222s aren't of much use anywhere else (unlike the 221s) and they should (touch wood) be released in time, though perhaps not early enough for an internal refurbishment. I can't see how more than 3 units would be required for a bisc service though, let alone 6-8! Some of the remaining 11 221s could also go to XC at a later date.
 

Peter Mugridge

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There is no flat crossing at Retford do you mean Newark?
I think he means up the curve at the north of Retford onto the down line and then crossing over to the up line - but like others, I'm not sure how far away the nearest crossover is unless one is put in for the purpose ( which presumably first Group would have to pay for? ) and how easy it'll be to path across.
 

D365

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I suspect that it would more likely be 221 from AWC than the 222's from EMR as they would be released sooner?

We know that seven of the 18 AWC class 221 will be going to XC. This leaves the remaining 11, with First Group Sheffield requiring 6 - 8 units out of the 11 units available for it's services. The rest would either go to Grand Central or XC or be used for spares.
There’s no point in speculating on numbers when we don’t know if ORR is likely to sign off on any further First Group proposals.
 

Peter Mugridge

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As for the discussion about rolling stock - someone pointed out upthread that only one unit would be needed to cover two return trips a day; on the Hull Trains thread in the Traction and Rolling Stock section of the forum, it is pointed out that only three of the five 802s are needed every day if nothing runs doubled up.

I suspect, therefore, that it will be one of the existing 802s running this Sheffield service - if it gets approved.
 

Bletchleyite

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Interesting that it's part of Hull rather than Lumo, but I guess it's because they don't want the Lumo brand being sullied with diesel?

I wonder does it mean the Hull brand will be made more generic?
 

357

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Seating numbers for reference:

221 - 26 First & 230 Standard
222 - 50 First & 192 Standard
 

CarrotPie

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Interesting that it's part of Hull rather than Lumo, but I guess it's because they don't want the Lumo brand being sullied with diesel?
It's mentioned in the press release someone quoted further up that First is "proud of Lumo's green credentials
" (or summink like that), which would imply diesel would be the last thing they'd think about associating with Lumo.
I wonder does it mean the Hull brand will be made more generic?
Perhaps just a First brand? First Trains, maybe?
 

WAB

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Perhaps just a First brand? First Trains, maybe?
I don't think the First brand is all that popular, and it's associated in many places (like Sheffield) with very mediocre bus services. That First was removed from the Hull Trains primary branding, and was never included for Lumo indicates the direction of travel.
 

Failed Unit

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Looking at the cross-over point at Retford, it probably won't be any worse then the Lincoln service is at Newark Northgate.
 

HSTEd

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Is there really any chance of this not being considered primarily abstractive?

Is Worksop really going to be the major loading point?
 

Clarence Yard

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As for the discussion about rolling stock - someone pointed out upthread that only one unit would be needed to cover two return trips a day; on the Hull Trains thread in the Traction and Rolling Stock section of the forum, it is pointed out that only three of the five 802s are needed every day if nothing runs doubled up.

I suspect, therefore, that it will be one of the existing 802s running this Sheffield service - if it gets approved.

Wrong - it will normally be one, I repeat, one 22x set on the Sheffield run. The 4th Hull 802 set is required for a double working to/from Hull. If an 802 works to Sheffield, it will be because the 22x is not available.

The reason it will be HT rather than Lumo is that it is more of a service fit with Hull and Hull Trains already gets quite a few London to Sheffield passengers, mainly through Retford but a few via Doncaster. Hull also wants to have diversionary capability via Retford and Sheffield for its Hull operation.

It will probably be route based branding for the 22x - it won’t be generic FG. Those finer details are yet to be worked out.
 

Iskra

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In one sense it will be nice to have competition, and I think serving Meadowhall is great and will be successful (I have suggested that on here before).

But, I assume that by providing a faster journey time, they aren’t going to be looking to compete on price so much, which obviously isn’t as good for many passengers.

As a resident of Sheffield, I do feel that there is a degree of choice already, as many cheap advances are already available on the various operators that serve Doncaster, so I do find this proposal somewhat unnecessary although I can see how a small number of passengers may see in advantage in this service, but will they be enough?

I also have concerns about capacity raised by others already and do question whether extra London trains are what’s really needed for Sheffield. It’s interesting that if this is a spare Hull trains unit, they didn’t use it to do an extra Hull service. It could also be somewhat useful if it could run in service on the positioning moves between Hull and Sheffield, providing extra capacity at peak times on that route.
 

Failed Unit

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I don't see how the will compete on time to be honest, it is about 85 minutes from London - Retford (Using HTs timetable) - Then we are looking at least 35 minutes from Retford - Sheffield.

EMR are just shy of 2 hours.

Really we are looking at about the same time, I am sure EMR will be able to shave some time off this journey when the 810s come along and will probably be looking for at least one sub 2 hour journey for the sake of the headlines.

This isn't going to be a battle done on time.
 

TheBigD

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Clarence Yard has posted the times proposed times on wnxx...

Sheffield 0920 1654
Retford 1017 1739
Kings Cross 1144 1914

Kings Cross 1248 1956
Retford 1410 2117
Sheffield 1457 2156
 

Failed Unit

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Thanks so definately no a race in terms of time, I think the 1956 is probably as good as possible in terms of speed, so EMR should still keep the headline of speed if they want to.
 

357

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Where are they likely to be keeping the unit? Looking at the times it's based at the north end of the route
 

Nottingham59

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Good idea. ORR data seems to suggest that Sheffield-Kings Cross is the biggest passenger flow with no direct service. (Apparently with ~500 passengers daily; greater than the volume to St Pancras. Can that be right?) See railalefan's website here:
Labs - Flow Statistics - Overall (no direct service)

Also, I know there are concerns about capacity at King's Cross not being fully used with only 5-car trains to Hull. I wonder if First might be hoping eventually to get paths to Sheffield by splitting Hull trains at say Retford or Grantham northbound, and joining at say Newark southbound?
 

IBLRG

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Clarence Yard has posted the times proposed times on wnxx...

Sheffield 0920 1654
Retford 1017 1739
Kings Cross 1144 1914

Kings Cross 1248 1956
Retford 1410 2117
Sheffield 1457 2156
1457 - 1654 parked up at Sheffield Midland, we can't see that somehow.

XX54 from Sheffield Midland is a path to Cleethorpes via Brigg/Gainsborough Central
 

43074

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Clarence Yard has posted the times proposed times on wnxx...

Sheffield 0920 1654
Retford 1017 1739
Kings Cross 1144 1914

Kings Cross 1248 1956
Retford 1410 2117
Sheffield 1457 2156
It's interesting that those timings are clearly intended to work with the current timetable rather than the East Coast recast, on the consultation timetable a few years ago 1247 from King's Cross was an LNER path and as far as I'm aware the plan for the south end of the ECML if the recast goes ahead hasn't changed much.
 

Clarence Yard

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Is there really any chance of this not being considered primarily abstractive?

Yes, because you don’t put in an application to the ORR that would not pass that test! At least HT won’t and, indeed, never have.

And the exact location the 22x comes from in the morning depends on the deal HT can make with potential maintainers but it will be in the North. No fixed view yet.

Splitting and joining is absolutely not envisaged. Been looked at as an option - totally out of the question, for a number of practical reasons too numerous to list here.
 

cle

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Is this planned to be non-stop from KX to Retford? Or provide other journey opps (e.g. a faster Peterborough to Sheffield link than via Notts - or at Stevenage - where Luton/Bedford no longer exist - good for a Herts railhead opp)
 

Clarence Yard

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The source of the timings is me and as I wrote the application, they have to be accurate. They fit on the June 2024 timetable database and when the December 2024 database is made available, the work will be done again (by an experienced planner familiar with the “geography”) to make them fit - potential paths have already been identified.

As part of the industry consultation all the “F3” (detailed timetable) prints and any consequential minor flexes (and they are very minor) are being provided for all industry participants to go through and to show everyone that HT are approaching this very seriously, unlike some other OA aspirants.

ECS moves have been omitted - there is no way the unit will be sitting in Sheffield station for nearly two hours!

And yes, it is non stop Retford to the Cross and vice versa. No time for stops elsewhere.
 

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