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First Group Sheffield - London via Retford open access proposal

Kentp

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I've been hearing rumors around today that there is a new open access opperation being proposed to run services between London and Sheffield. As ever when these proposals come in people will ask about the capacity but looking at the success of open access I'm guess that there must be. Do people have more information, stops, number of services, type of stock, DOO etc? I'm guessing this'll be another 'low cost, no frills' service as apposed to a bells and whistles offering.
 
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zwk500

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Bigger question for me would be passing the not primarily abstractive test. Do you have a link to a report or application?
 

YorkRailFan

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FirstGroup plc, the leading private sector transport operator, is today submitting the first phase of an application for a new open access rail service between London and Sheffield to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

FirstGroup plans to expand its open access rail operations as part of its award-winning Hull Trains business, building on their successful existing service which has transformed long-distance connectivity between Hull and London.

FirstGroup’s new proposals comprise two return journeys a day from London King’s Cross, calling at Retford, Worksop, Woodhouse and Sheffield, and the company aims to provide a faster link between London and Sheffield than alternative services. Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are currently made by car, with a further 9% of trips made by coach, and a competitively priced new rail offering will help stimulate a shift in transport mode of choice from road to rail.

The new proposed route will give Sheffield the first regular service from London King’s Cross since 1968 and will also give Worksop in Nottinghamshire the first regular direct London trains in decades. FirstGroup estimates there are 350,000 people in the Worksop and Woodhouse catchment areas who will have direct rail access to London because of these proposals. A sizeable number of rail users in these areas currently drive to Doncaster station to pick up faster services to London rather than travelling via Sheffield, and a convenient rail offering from local stations will also help to reduce the number of these car journeys.

Hull Trains has increased seat capacity and grown the number of direct services from one to eight a day since it took to the tracks almost 25 years ago, improving connectivity to destinations along the route and providing a choice for customers travelling to and from East Yorkshire & the Humber. The latest ORR figures, published in December 2023, show more people are now travelling with Hull Trains than they did before the pandemic, with the operator reporting the strongest recovery in UK journey levels in the sector.

This new application also follows the success of FirstGroup’s second open access service, Lumo, which launched in October 2021 between London and Edinburgh. Lumo’s popularity and success has grown over the last two years, thanks to its low fare model and environmental credentials, and has carried more than two million passengers since launch.

FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer, Graham Sutherland said "We want to leverage our extensive experience of running open access services and repeat the success of Hull Trains and Lumo through this new route that connects London and Sheffield. We have seen the level of growth and opportunity that is possible with open access, as well as the positive effect it can have on the wider market, including economic and environmental benefits. The new service will help to drive modal shift from road to rail by offering customers a more sustainable travel alternative between the two cities. We will be working closely with stakeholders as we build our application and our case for this new offering."

Interesting choice of route going via Worksop. Does anyone know if going via Worksop would be faster than EMR's current MML London-Sheffield service? It look as if First is applying for Hull Trains to run this service, could this negate a possible name change, seeing that this service wouldn't run to Hull? I do also wonder if this could mean a new order for the 802 from First Group, so that they have enough Trains to run this service and the existing Hull Trains service.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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So using Hull Trains stock which i thought was pretty intensively worked now or are they going to reduce the Hull or more likely Beverly services to free up stock for this service perhaps.
 

dgl

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The question of what stock does seem to be an interesting one as assuming they don't thin services elsewhere it'll probably have to be new build. If new build then I would assume IET's are out of the question due to Hitachi putting the price up (and the general dissatisfaction with Hitachi stuff), maybe they are waiting to see what the LNER CAF trains are like, assuming they are suitable.
 

DimTim

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For 2 return services per day & being faster than East Midlands Railway I.e. 2 hours then it’s only likely one unit will be required. One return journey AM, and another PM. Diesel to Retford & electric to Kings Cross, changeover in platform at Retford.
 

Meerkat

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I thought the north end of Sheffield was full?
I assume none of the 802s from other operators are near end of lease?
 

richardderby

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Brilliant news! EMR really needs some competition, as journey times apart, the St Pancras service, is an expensive, overcrowded shambles...
look forward to a trip over Whisker hill junction next year if this goes ahead...
 

Murray J

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Bigger question for me would be passing the not primarily abstractive test. Do you have a link to a report or application?
Seeing as it's 2 journeys a day that give Worksop and Woodhouse trains to London for the first time i'm intrigued to see if this service would be primarily abstractive or not.
 

JaJaWa

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Quoted to comply with forum rules:
FirstGroup applies to run new London to Sheffield rail service
05 Jan 2024

FirstGroup plc, the leading private sector transport operator, has today submitted the first phase of an application for a new open access rail service between London and Sheffield to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR).

FirstGroup plans to expand its open access rail operations as part of its award-winning Hull Trains business, building on their successful existing service which has transformed long-distance connectivity between Hull and London.

FirstGroup’s new proposals comprise two return journeys a day from London King’s Cross, calling at Retford, Worksop, Woodhouse and Sheffield, and the company aims to provide a faster link between London and Sheffield than alternative services. Almost three quarters of trips between London and Sheffield are currently made by car, with a further 9% of trips made by coach, and a competitively priced new rail offering will help stimulate a shift in transport mode of choice from road to rail.

The new proposed route will give Sheffield the first regular service from London King’s Cross since 1968 and will also give Worksop in Nottinghamshire the first regular direct London trains in decades. FirstGroup estimates there are 350,000 people in the Worksop and Woodhouse catchment areas who will have direct rail access to London because of these proposals. A sizeable number of rail users in these areas currently drive to Doncaster station to pick up faster services to London rather than travelling via Sheffield, and a convenient rail offering from local stations will also help to reduce the number of these car journeys.

Hull Trains has increased seat capacity and grown the number of direct services from one to eight a day since it took to the tracks almost 25 years ago, improving connectivity to destinations along the route and providing a choice for customers travelling to and from East Yorkshire & the Humber. The latest ORR figures, published in December 2023, show more people are now travelling with Hull Trains than they did before the pandemic, with the operator reporting the strongest recovery in UK journey levels in the sector.

This new application also follows the success of FirstGroup’s second open access service, Lumo, which launched in October 2021 between London and Edinburgh. Lumo’s popularity and success has grown over the last two years, thanks to its low fare model and environmental credentials, and has carried more than two million passengers since launch.

FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer, Graham Sutherland said "We want to leverage our extensive experience of running open access services and repeat the success of Hull Trains and Lumo through this new route that connects London and Sheffield. We have seen the level of growth and opportunity that is possible with open access, as well as the positive effect it can have on the wider market, including economic and environmental benefits. The new service will help to drive modal shift from road to rail by offering customers a more sustainable travel alternative between the two cities. We will be working closely with stakeholders as we build our application and our case for this new offering."

FirstGroup has submitted a formal application to the ORR. A consultation period will now follow, as well as discussion with Network Rail to secure the required approvals. Options for trains to be used on the route will also be worked up with rolling stock leasing companies. It is anticipated that services could begin in the second half of the 2025 calendar year.

Unlike most rail services, which are provided under contract to government, open access operators retain all revenue and cost risk and opportunity. FirstGroup is the leading open access operator in the country, with more open access rail businesses than any other.
 
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A S Leib

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What are the odds of getting paths for good connections with Mansfield services?
 

IBLRG

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Pathing across Nunnery Mainline Junction north of Sheffield Midland is at a premium so this will be interesting.

But we'll played Hull Trains, this will be popular especially in Worksop.

This also may lead the way for the withdrawal of Northern running the Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg Line service, and transferring it over to TransPennine to run a Cleethorpes to Worksop shuttle, thus allowing paths from Sheffield Midland towards Retford.
 

dgl

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Going by a post by Clarance Yard on WNXX it would seem 22x trains are the prefered stock, either 221 or 222 depending on price/what's on offer, though they are looking for the route to be cleared for 221, 222 and 802.
Also planning for two journeys to be extended to Meadowhall, probably as part of an ECS movement.
 

Clarence Yard

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Dgl, you beat me to it - it’s been a busy morning!

Surplus 221 or 222 stock to start with one diagram, which has a more than passing resemblance to the 1963 ER Sheffield to KX Pullman service diagram structure - however with later starts from Sheffield than in 1963!
 

Failed Unit

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Going South from Retford how (and where) would it cross the ECML? That will be a pain in the rear to path.

Getting paths out of King Cross will be interesting.

If they are looking for Speed I wonder if EMR will fight back by speeding up a service, say non-stop from Chesterfield if it avoids Derby (or Derby if it doesn't)
 

357

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You know, for 2 return trips a day, the 3 class 180s currently in store at Ely could work nicely :lol: :lol:
 

Clarence Yard

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Absolutely no chance of 180 sets - they can rot. The proposed stock is either 221 or 222 sets.
 

GardenRail

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Excellent Idea in principle. Though as one of the Sheffield signallers, Nunnery Mainline, and the North end of Sheffield in general, is a concern. The infrastructure struggles to maintain the current timetable as it is. Too many trains, not enough track, or platforms.
 

ricoblade

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Excellent Idea in principle. Though as one of the Sheffield signallers, Nunnery Mainline, and the North end of Sheffield in general, is a concern. The infrastructure struggles to maintain the current timetable as it is. Too many trains, not enough track, or platforms.
My thoughts on seeing this was what happened to the pre-COVID semi-fast Lincoln<>Sheffield paths that have never returned?

As others have said, getting up the very sharp Whisker Hill curve from the Lincoln line onto and across the ECML for southbound will be interesting. i don't know where a suitable crossover is located.
 

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