Pay dispute at London Underground

[popeter45]

Apparently they found an extra £30m down the back of the TfL sofa…

TfL always complaining they don’t have the money but the Unions have realised this ain’t true.

the £30m wont have come from nowhere, they will have decided something else will have to be cut to make up that funding

 

[Florence Rox]

In the overall scheme of things, £30 million really is not that much. Even if all of it was put towards the pay award, we, the staff, will only get a maximum of around 1.5% extra, or possibly 1% plus £500. It is too early to talk about victory when there is unlikely to be an offer on the table any time soon, especially for those like myself who are planning to retire and would like the backdated increase. This money from Sadiq's money tree is just to make himself look good for the upcoming Mayoral election.

 

[winks]

In the overall scheme of things, £30 million really is not that much. Even if all of it was put towards the pay award, we, the staff, will only get a maximum of around 1.5% extra, or possibly 1% plus £500. It is too early to talk about victory when there is unlikely to be an offer on the table any time soon, especially for those like myself who are planning to retire and would like the backdated increase. This money from Sadiq's money tree is just to make himself look good for the upcoming Mayoral election.

Agreed on this.

They will probably address the freezing of the bands plus a one-off lump sum to get this through.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Agreed on this.

They will probably address the freezing of the bands plus a one-off lump sum to get this through.

For the majority of RMT members the red line issues were the freezing of the bands and a minimum uplift for the lower paid salaries (a la offers elsewhere in the industry). 5% is well below usual LUL pay deals but was generally seen as the best option.

The feeling on the ground is that even with an offer of RPI, without the red lines being addressed it wouldn’t be accepted.

It will be interesting to see the details emerge over the coming days.

 

[baza585]

Apparently they found an extra £30m down the back of the TfL sofa…

TfL always complaining they don’t have the money but the Unions have realised this ain’t true.

Utterly shambolic by TfL. Sadly the Deputy Mayor for Transport Seb Dance is so utterly useless that Mayor Khan has panicked and found £30m just like that. Not that that amount of money will go very far!

Dance knows nothing about public transport. I dread to think why he was appointed. He must have something on Khan!

 

[kw12]

In the overall scheme of things, £30 million really is not that much. Even if all of it was put towards the pay award, we, the staff, will only get a maximum of around 1.5% extra, or possibly 1% plus £500.

How do you calculate it as 1.5% extra?

By my maths:
- There are around 16,000 London Underground staff so if all £30 million were used for the pay award that would be around £30,000,000 / 16,000 = £1875 extra per person.
- If £1875 were only 1.5% extra the member of staff would need to be on a salary of £125,000

 

[Richardr]

How do you calculate it as 1.5% extra?

By my maths:
- There are around 16,000 London Underground staff so if all £30 million were used for the pay award that would be around £30,000,000 / 16,000 = £1875 extra per person.
- If £1875 were only 1.5% extra the member of staff would need to be on a salary of £125,000

Isn't it just RMT members you should count, not all staff?

 

[kw12]

Isn't it just RMT members you should count, not all staff?

Possibly, but that would give a higher extra increase per person, so even further away from the stated 1.5%.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Isn't it just RMT members you should count, not all staff?

No, all staff.

Unfortunately, collective bargaining is such that even non-members, or members of other unions, are still eligible for whatever gets agreed.

However, let’s wait for the detail to come out - as I’ve said, the strike was not about the straight percentage but the strings attached. Removing those is likely to eat up a not unreasonable amount of the cash.

 

[Starmill]

Isn't it just RMT members you should count, not all staff?

The employer doesn't even know who is and isn't in the RMT so that'd be rather difficult. Regardless, they're obliged to offer the same settlement to everyone in each bargaining unit.

 

[Wolfie]

Isn't it just RMT members you should count, not all staff?

No it isn't. The BBC were reporting last night that ASLEF reps had already said that their previous acceptance was no longer valid.

 

[Route115?]

According to the National Rail website, Chiltern are running from Gt Missenden to Marylebone but not stopping at intermediate LUL station, or indeed South Ruislip. Whilst I understand that threatened strikes like this will cause all kinds of problems for short term planners does anyone know why this is? Surely the stations will be staffed. Trains might be shorter formations than usual but that would only affect the peak.

 

[Goldfish62]

Central Govt

That's the last place any money would come from. Central Govt would have loved to have seen an all week strike so they could blame Khan, TfL and the RMT.

Apparently they found an extra £30m down the back of the TfL Mayor's sofa…

TfL always complaining they don’t have the money but the Unions have realised this ain’t true.

There, that's better. Presumably found in the same place behind the mayor's sofa as the money that was suddenly found to be able to cancel the majority of the central London bus cuts last year.

The unions know full well that TfL is in a precarious financial position, but that's not their problem.

 

[Thirteen]

That's the last place any money would come from. Central Govt would have loved to have seen an all week strike so they could blame Khan, TfL and the RMT.

Not just Central Government, Susan Hall would no doubt be going on about Sadiq Khan is hurting Londoners.

 

[bramling]

Not just Central Government, Susan Hall would no doubt be going on about Sadiq Khan is hurting Londoners.

Much as the politicians wish to scrap with each other, it does seem to be the case that a full week of no LU service has focussed minds. Just because Khan is supposed to have found the money doesn’t mean there hasn’t been any indirect government involvement.

 

[kw12]

Just because Khan is supposed to have found the money doesn’t mean there hasn’t been any indirect government involvement.

Really? Why would the government help Khan? And in the unlikely event that the government was helping resolving this dispute, why would it quiet about it? Surely, this would be something that the government would wish voters to know, rather than let Khan take all the credit for it?

 

[Goldfish62]

Much as the politicians wish to scrap with each other, it does seem to be the case that a full week of no LU service has focussed minds. Just because Khan is supposed to have found the money doesn’t mean there hasn’t been any indirect government involvement.

I doubt that very much. The government hates Khan and hates TfL.

The government have changed the mayoral voting system to First Past the Post to split the vote on the left and make it easier for their candidate. No more second preference.

Khan is vulnerable and has a real chance of losing to the hard Right Tory candidate who makes Bozo when he stood seem like a socialist. Having a week long tube strike would have helped that cause immensely.

 

[43066]

Really? Why would the government help Khan? And in the unlikely event that the government was helping resolving this dispute, why would it quiet about it? Surely, this would be something that the government would wish voters to know, rather than let Khan take all the credit for it?

Maybe because chaos on the capital city’s transport system makes the government look bad, and adds to the feeling that the country isn’t working well at the moment. However the government wouldn’t necessarily want to be seen to be helping to resolving it given the ASLEF dispute remains outstanding.

On the other hand I’m not convinced there’s any real strategy in place at all.

 

[Goldfish62]

On the other hand I’m not convinced there’s any real strategy in place at all.

That neatly summarises the current government.

 

[bramling]

Really? Why would the government help Khan?

Naturally they wouldn’t want to do that. But there’s more to life than Khan. The strikes would have done considerable economic damage. Also people in London and the wider south-east are starting to agitate about all this, it all contributes to the narrative that the country has fallen to bits, and done so under a Conservative government.

Maybe, just maybe, perhaps with an election looming, and with slightly more sensible people now in charge compared to the likes of Johnson or Truss, they realise that if they keep playing these games they really are going to get a wipe-out when the election happens.

So damage limitation.

 

[kw12]

the £30m wont have come from nowhere, they will have decided something else will have to be cut to make up that funding

There is the possibility (unlikely perhaps) that this year's income (of around £2bn) from retained business rates is now expected to be £30m more than forecast a month ago, enabling the mayor to give more money to TfL without making any cuts.

 

[Goldfish62]

Utterly shambolic by TfL. Sadly the Deputy Mayor for Transport Seb Dance is so utterly useless that Mayor Khan has panicked and found £30m just like that. Not that that amount of money will go very far!

Dance knows nothing about public transport. I dread to think why he was appointed. He must have something on Khan!

Agree re Dance. If only Heidi Alexander had stayed on. But remember he's a City Hall employee, not TfL.

There's the possibility that TfL knew nothing about this £30m until the mayor's office announced it yesterday. That's exactly what happened with the money found to avoid the central London bus cuts.

And of course £30m isn't just £30m. It's £30m extra on costs annually forever.

Just watched the BBC London local news.

It was confirmed that it was the Mayor, not TfL, that found the £30m. Also highlighted that it's highly unusual for the Mayor to intervene in TfL pay negotiations as it would normally be seen as undermining TfL management. The impending election was mentioned as a possible reason.

Predictably Susan Hall accused Khan of financial irresponsibility, finding money that doesn't exist.

 

[Mawkie]

Also highlighted that it's highly unusual for the Mayor to intervene in TfL pay negotiations as it would normally be seen as undermining TfL management.

I recall the usual right wing rags complaining that the Mayor didn't intervene last time there was strike action called. Seems to me that he can't win.

Predictably Susan Hall accused Khan of financial irresponsibility, finding money that doesn't exist.

Why anyone gives this thicko any airtime is beyond me.

 

[winks]

Why has the title of this thread changed to “now resolved” ?

Jumping the gun a bit, is it not ?

 

[Mawkie]

Why has the title of this thread changed to “now resolved” ?

Jumping the gun a bit, is it not ?

Quite! I didn't realise the title had changed to be honest. Indeed, if anything, it has re-opened the dispute in the eyes of ASLEF. From what I'm hearing in the mess room today, their members are saying they been deceived by the Company when TfL said there was no more money after the original 5% offer, and the ASLEF members seemed furious.

It's all mess room gossip though, so I'm not sure what the ASLEF hierarchy are thinking of doing.

 

[xtmw]

Agreed - the dispute is anything but over !

 

[Goldfish62]

Seems to me that he can't win.

Seems he can't.

Why anyone gives this thicko any airtime is beyond me.

Unfortunately we're going to be hearing a lot more from her in the next few months. And a lot more if she's elected...

 

[Mikey C]

Quite! I didn't realise the title had changed to be honest. Indeed, if anything, it has re-opened the dispute in the eyes of ASLEF. From what I'm hearing in the mess room today, their members are saying they been deceived by the Company when TfL said there was no more money after the original 5% offer, and the ASLEF members seemed furious.

It's all mess room gossip though, so I'm not sure what the ASLEF hierarchy are thinking of doing.

The Times is reporting similar

Tube drivers, who are represented by the rival Aslef union, are furious that the mayor of London has stumped up money to prevent a week of RMT strikes, less than a month after they were told no more funds were available.
Drivers voted overwhelmingly to accept a 5 per cent pay deal for 2023 in November. The RMT represents station staff, signallers and other operational staff.
“Their union told them in good faith that 5 per cent was the final offer from Transport for London (TfL) and that there was absolutely no more money,” a source said. “For Khan to suddenly find the magic money tree for the RMT has undermined everything. Very senior people at TfL feel thoroughly pissed off because it has made them look like they lied to Aslef.”

An industry source suggested Aslef’s position had been completely undermined. “They sold the [5 per cent] deal to their members as a good one,” they said. “What can they do now — tell them it’s actually a bad one? Spinning it is going to be like walking on a tightrope.”
Aslef is generally considered more moderate than the RMT. Tube drivers are paid about £60,000 a year, although salaries vary depending on grade.
Announcing that drivers had accepted the 5 per cent pay offer, Finn Brennan, Aslef’s full-time organiser for London Underground, said: “It is a no-strings offer, which shows that agreements can be reached without industrial action when employers are prepared to sit round the table and negotiate a settlement.”

 

[Wolfie]

Quite! I didn't realise the title had changed to be honest. Indeed, if anything, it has re-opened the dispute in the eyes of ASLEF. From what I'm hearing in the mess room today, their members are saying they been deceived by the Company when TfL said there was no more money after the original 5% offer, and the ASLEF members seemed furious.

It's all mess room gossip though, so I'm not sure what the ASLEF hierarchy are thinking of doing.

ITV London News was reporting comment that ASLEF now want 12%, as is the Evening Standard.

"Tube drivers on Monday demanded a 12% pay rise after Sadiq Khan decided to use £30m of taxpayers’ cash to avert a week of strikes on the London Underground. Aslef, which represents the majority of Tube drivers, said the mayor “had found the magic money tree and our members expect to share the fruit”.

Mr Khan’s unprecedented intervention on Sunday saw the RMT, which represents about 10,000 Tube staff, call off walkouts that would have effectively shut the Underground until Friday.

But the mayor’s decision to use unspecified City Hall funds to enable pay negotiations to restart this week had the immediate impact of prompting Aslef – which had already agreed to accept a five per cent increase – to demand more cash.

Finn Brennan, Aslef’s London organiser, told the Standard: “It means negotiations start afresh and, as there is more money on the table, we now want our original claim for an RPI+ pay rise of around 12 per cent (based on last February’s RPI rate) and a cut in working hours to be met in full.”

Mayoral sources said Mr Khan decided to intervene after being told by business and tourism leaders of the damaging impact of a week-long strike on the London economy and the post-Christmas return to work."

Aslef drivers now demand 12% rise after £30million found to avert RMT strikes

Aslef, which represents the majority of Tube drivers, says mayor has 'found the magic money tree and our members expect to share the fruit'

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Tube driver]

Back to square one it seems.