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Pricing of out of court settlements and costs involved in persuing fare evasion cases

Krokodil

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I see your point, but who paid / or should pay the wages (+on costs, pension contribs etc etc) of all the Avanti staff employed to do the revenue protection block that identified the person with the wrong ticket on the day? These are all costs associated with fare evasion surely. It's not just the costs run up by TIL in pursuing this offender in my view.
If only the police could recover the costs of investigations from the criminals they successfully prosecute. Chief Constables would have far more resources.

In general terms, the legal position is that charges and fees should not be punitive- they should reflect the actual cost of what happened in the specific case. This has been reinforced in the civil courts in relation to shoplifters- shop security guards would be there anyway and so their full cost can't be recovered from shoplifters (although the amount of their time spent on the specific case can be).
Surely the legal position is irrelevant - out of court settlements are completely voluntary for both sides. I could say that I saw you parking on my driveway and I'll take you to court unless you pay me £1000 to make the matter go away. Obviously you'd tell me to "sod off and I'll see you in court". Legally I've done nothing wrong by asking for it and you're under no obligation to accept what is clearly a ridiculous 'offer'. Obviously if it did go to court, I wouldn't get a lot without proving that I was genuinely out of pocket in some way.
 
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Haywain

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If only the police could recover the costs of investigations from the criminals they successfully prosecute. Chief Constables would have far more resources.
It’s the CPS who carry out prosecutions, not the police.
 

Tetchytyke

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So evade £100s of fares, get caught once
That sounds like a failure of railway revenue protection to me.

Maybe if they weren’t so determined to reduce staffing levels…
The PF system would have to then mean once you got 2 or 3 of them it was straight to court for the next infringement - however minor or genuine error that was.
Why would that be an issue? If you keep making mistakes, the consequences of those mistakes increase. Speed by 5mph once you get a £100 penalty, but do it 4-5 times and you lose your licence.

Surely the legal position is irrelevant - out of court settlements are completely voluntary for both sides
If the railway didn’t have the power of criminal prosecution you’d be correct. Your rather poor example shows this- parking on your driveway is a civil matter, not a criminal one, and the civil courts would tell you to stop being silly. But the railways have strict liability criminal offences on their side; there’s voluntary and there’s “voluntary”.
If only the police could recover the costs of investigations from the criminals they successfully prosecute.
The police don’t prosecute, but I introduce you to the Proceeds of Crime Act.
 
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Kite159

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If the only potential punishment is paying a £50 penalty fare for being a 'pay only when challenged' passenger alongside the fare you should have paid then what's to stop someone travelling on say Greater Anglia from an unbarriered station to Stratford and touching into the TfL system to carry on.

The occasional penalty fare won't cover the lost revenue for the times they get away with it
 

Bletchleyite

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If the only potential punishment is paying a £50 penalty fare for being a 'pay only when challenged' passenger alongside the fare you should have paid then what's to stop someone travelling on say Greater Anglia from an unbarriered station to Stratford and touching into the TfL system to carry on.

The occasional penalty fare won't cover the lost revenue for the times they get away with it

Because you'll get caught eventually and can be prosecuted for fraud when they investigate and notice you've been doing it lots. Short-faring is fraud as you are gaining financially by misleading the railway as to your journey.

But that's an argument for PFs needing to either be higher or escalate (e.g. you can only have the £50 discount once every five years, say), not for an unregulated and arguably corrupt (in some ways) system of settlements.

I'm with whoever said that either it should be a PF for basic stuff or they should actually prosecute if it's repeated or massive. It's these settlements I have a problem with, as in effect they are requesting an arbitrary and unregulated bribe not to prosecute. Personally I would make soliciting or offering an out of court settlement to withdraw a criminal prosecution an offence. (I'm fine of course with out of court settlements for a civil case where one is simply sueing for money that is believed to be owed).
 

Kite159

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Because you'll get caught eventually and can be prosecuted for fraud when they investigate and notice you've been doing it lots. Short-faring is fraud as you are gaining financially by misleading the railway as to your journey.
Good luck getting the CPS to go after that, afterall private prosecutions by the rail companies will be outlawed.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm more than happy for serious fare evaders to be prosecuted for fraud and fined. And this should go via the Police, CPS and Courts, not the effective bribery of a settlement.

However, these settlements are being used for far more than that, including genuine errors like expired Railcards. I am not OK with that.
So how do you differentiate between ‘accidentally’ expired, and intentionally didn’t renew it, assuming it wouldn’t usually be checked?
 

Bletchleyite

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So how do you differentiate between ‘accidentally’ expired, and intentionally didn’t renew it, assuming it wouldn’t usually be checked?

If you value customer service you give the benefit of the doubt, and you put things in place to help differentiate, e.g. you make sure staff actually do check Railcards every single time (and I agree they mostly don't) by way of mystery shoppers and the likes and disciplinary action for failing to do their job correctly.

The other way to avoid accidentally expired Railcards is to default to them being sold by automatically renewing direct debit and actively prompting people to re-prove entitlement where necessary. I can't help but think the railway quite likes the extra revenue it gets from people forgetting and paying settlements (and other esoteric stuff like Northern Promise to Pay and hiding TVMs in obscure locations on stations).

One really simple one would be to make it required for sales sites and apps that to buy a Railcard discounted ticket you must enter an expiry date and Railcard number to buy a discounted ticket, and so if it's expired you can't accidentally buy a discounted ticket. You could of course enter a false one, but then that's on you if caught (and would make it easier to prove fraud).

New thread to go into detail on this: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-using-expired-railcards-by-accident.260817/
 
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spag23

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So how do you differentiate between ‘accidentally’ expired, and intentionally didn’t renew it, assuming it wouldn’t usually be checked?
How about applying a special "late renewal charge" of 50p/day for the period between Railcard expiry and realisation/challenge? This, at eight times the normal rate, is a good deterrent, and is pleasingly proportionate to the scale of the offence.
 

Tetchytyke

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So how do you differentiate between ‘accidentally’ expired, and intentionally didn’t renew it, assuming it wouldn’t usually be checked?
You probably can't, and that is irrespective of whether this is dealt with by Penalty Fare or by TIL.

It certainly doesn't help that the likes of Trainline leave your railcard discount in place from previous bookings, it should be something you manually have to select each and every time.

But this is where a proper, robust, system applies. First time you get a PF you get the benefit of the doubt. Second time you get less of a benefit of the doubt- maybe you lose the prompt payment discount. Third time in x time- prosecution.
Good luck getting the CPS to go after that, afterall private prosecutions by the rail companies will be outlawed.
There is no reason why the CPS wouldn't prosecute. They set our their policy here:

Fare Evasion is the principal form of dishonesty to affect public transport. The fact that it is widespread is a relevant public interest factor.

Prosecutors should consider using the provisions of the Fraud Act 2006 (See CPS Fraud Act 2006 Legal Guidance), where there is evidence of premeditation, or persistence, or repeat offending, or large loss by the transport authority. Where tickets have been altered or defaced, prosecutors should consider a charge under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 (See CPS Forgery and Counterfeiting Legal Guidance).

Where fare evasion is opportunistic and there is no significant element of planning, then it will not normally be necessary in the public interest to charge fraud or forgery. In these circumstances, subject to the usual public interest considerations, a charge under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act or section 103 of the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act may be appropriate.

Which actually pretty much follows what I have been saying: the low level/first offence stuff should be dealt with by PF in a fair and transparent way, and the persistent offenders should have the book thrown at them by professional prosecutors.

What you won't have is examples of chequebook justice like this, where a TOC decides not to prosecute wilful and deliberate fare evasion on a grand scale because it suited them better to get a cheque instead. Which is, to be quite honest, my other main issue with the current system: if you're poor and can't afford the administrative charge you get a criminal record, as TIL and the TOCs understandably won't agree an instalment plan. But if you're rich and could have easily afforded to pay your fare in the first place then you get let off and you get to keep your name out of the public record.

Clearly the TOCs are primarily interested in recovering the unpaid fare. Fair enough, but they should be using the civil justice system for debt recovery, not using the criminal justice system to extort fees from people.

The occasional penalty fare won't cover the lost revenue for the times they get away with it
But a £150 TIL administrative charge won't either.

The key is for the railway to minimise the time that someone can avoid detection for. Doughnutting, as an example, is now so prevalent in the south east because enforcement is primarily by way of ticket barrier, with on-train checks being as rare as hen's teeth. Similarly the Trainline refund trick is now so prevalent because so few people are actually getting their tickets scanned during their journey.
 
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Bletchleyite

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What you won't have is examples of chequebook justice like this, where a TOC decides not to prosecute wilful and deliberate fare evasion on a grand scale because it suited them better to get a cheque instead. Which is, to be quite honest, my other main issue with the current system: if you're poor and can't afford the administrative charge you get a criminal record, as TIL and the TOCs understandably won't agree an instalment plan. But if you're rich and could have easily afforded to pay your fare in the first place then you get let off.

I think you're quite generous there. I take the view that it's (morally) bribery and extortion to solicit or offer money for a criminal prosecution to be withdrawn or for charges to be dropped, or to threaten criminal charges*, and should be a criminal offence in itself to do so. Either prosecute or deal with it by civil means.

* That is, you can either bring them or not bring them, but not threaten them.
 

Tetchytyke

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I think you're quite generous there. I take the view that it's (morally) bribery and extortion to solicit or offer money for a criminal prosecution to be withdrawn or for charges to be dropped, or to threaten criminal charges*, and should be a criminal offence in itself to do so. Either prosecute or deal with it by civil means.
I'm intentionally being generous- I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

The usage of the threat of criminal prosecution for a minor unpaid fare matter is extortion. There is really no other word for it. Civil debt recovery procedures exist for a reason.

If it meets the CPS' test for prosecution, as quoted above, then it should be prosecuted. There should be no soliciting of bribes, sorry, "administrative resolutions", if it meets the public interest test for prosecution.

If it doesn't- as in the case that started this discussion- then it should be a Penalty Fare or UFN and on we go.

I like TfL's attitude to this. They don't mess around, if they decide a case merits prosecution (and in cases such as Freedom Pass abuse, rightly so) they simply go out and prosecute it.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm intentionally being generous- I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

The usage of the threat of criminal prosecution for a minor unpaid fare matter is extortion. There is really no other word for it. Civil debt recovery procedures exist for a reason.

If it meets the CPS' test for prosecution, as quoted above, then it should be prosecuted. There should be no soliciting of bribes, sorry, "administrative resolutions", if it meets the public interest test for prosecution.

If it doesn't- as in the case that started this discussion- then it should be a Penalty Fare or UFN and on we go.

I like TfL's attitude to this. They don't mess around, if they decide a case merits prosecution (and in cases such as Freedom Pass abuse, rightly so) they simply go out and prosecute it.

Completely agreed.
 

fandroid

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I concur concerning TfL's policy. It's honestly rigorous. The varied policies of the TOCs and their inconsistent execution seem to be the main reason why those caught by TfL think that they can "get away" with some lesser penalty. TfLs attempts at recovery of historic lost fares have to before a court, so there's an extra level of rigour required there too.

I agree generally that the Penalty Fare system should be extended right across all public transport in GB. The £50 rebate should only be applicable once a year. Subsequent Penalties could ramp up so that a second one in 12 months would be £100 minimum. Even push it higher, adding further £50 sums for multiple penalties handed out within a single 12 month period. After all, something very similar works for driving offences and points on a driving licence.

I would cap the fare recovery too for single incidents - Anytime Singles up to a value of £25 (or whatever is nationally judged as appropriate). Thereafter only increase that if the actual fare difference is greater than £25 having applied all relevant discounts. The Penalty itself should be the main deterrent, not some random fare where a valid Railcard holder travelling Off-peak is punished the same as someone who hasn't shelled out for a Railcard and is travelling during the peak. The fare recovery should reflect the TOCs actual losses.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would cap the fare recovery too for single incidents - Anytime Singles up to a value of £25 (or whatever is nationally judged as appropriate). Thereafter only increase that if the actual fare difference is greater than £25 having applied all relevant discounts. The Penalty itself should be the main deterrent, not some random fare where a valid Railcard holder travelling Off-peak is punished the same as someone who hasn't shelled out for a Railcard and is travelling during the peak. The fare recovery should reflect the TOCs actual losses.

As the fare component is meant to be just that - the fare - that component should be what the person would have purchased if they did so at a booking office immediately before boarding, including any appropriate discounts. If the penalty component is too low, it should be increased, not have it increased by stealth by charging e.g. one of Avanti's outrageous Anytime fares when a Railcard discounted Off Peak would have been ordinarily applicable.
 

baz962

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I think you're quite generous there. I take the view that it's (morally) bribery and extortion to solicit or offer money for a criminal prosecution to be withdrawn or for charges to be dropped, or to threaten criminal charges*, and should be a criminal offence in itself to do so. Either prosecute or deal with it by civil means.

* That is, you can either bring them or not bring them, but not threaten them.
As an aside. Would you think that the authorities shouldn't bribe you to go on a speed awareness course that you pay for to avoid penalty points on a driving licence.
 

Bletchleyite

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As an aside. Would you think that the authorities shouldn't bribe you to go on a speed awareness course that you pay for to avoid penalty points on a driving licence.

A speed awareness course is more like a Penalty Fare - it has a fixed price and a fixed loss of time and it is statutorially defined what it entails. It is not like an arbitrary financial settlement.

A Fixed Penalty Notice for speeding (fixed fine + 3 points) is also in a way like a Penalty Fare, for what it's worth.

The key is that these are tightly regulated what they are and what sort of sums they entail.
 

SteveM70

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As an aside. Would you think that the authorities shouldn't bribe you to go on a speed awareness course that you pay for to avoid penalty points on a driving licence.

In addition to the earlier points differentiating speed awareness courses from out of court settlements, they also have an educational/training aspect clearly designed to reduce the likelihood of reoffending
 

Watershed

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Wonder whether this (= Elaine Ashby) is a real name / actual person at Transport Investigations Ltd?
It certainly wouldn't be the first time such shenanigans had happened - Capita use fake names of people in non-existent roles to sign the threatening letters they send to anyone without a TV Licence.
 

SteveM70

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It certainly wouldn't be the first time such shenanigans had happened - Capita use fake names of people in non-existent roles to sign the threatening letters they send to anyone without a TV Licence.

Admittedly 20+ years ago, but back then so did a chain of catalogue retailers I used to work for, and according to a friend who works there, so does one of the big banks
 

TheJester

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Admittedly 20+ years ago, but back then so did a chain of catalogue retailers I used to work for, and according to a friend who works there, so does one of the big banks
Not just limited to those organisations. I’ve yet to meet Inspector Sands
 

Tetchytyke

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Wonder whether this (= Elaine Ashby) is a real name / actual person at Transport Investigations Ltd?
I highly doubt it. If I were in such a role I’d not put my real name to anything. Not everyone is as understanding as they should be that business is business…
 

AlterEgo

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It certainly wouldn't be the first time such shenanigans had happened - Capita use fake names of people in non-existent roles to sign the threatening letters they send to anyone without a TV Licence.
Virgin Trains' generic letters regarding customer relations were always signed "Michael Saunders" in my day.
 

Springs Branch

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Wonder whether this (= Elaine Ashby) is a real name / actual person at Transport Investigations Ltd?
Virgin Trains' generic letters regarding customer relations were always signed "Michael Saunders" in my day.
Funny how so many 'signed' communications from corporate sources seem to come from someone with a 'sensible', nondescript, somewhat middle-class name. When the person who actually pressed 'print' on the multiple template letters-of-demand sent out during that shift was just as likely to be called Rajiv Khan or Bozena Cieslinski.

(Incidentally, anyone remember telly ads back in the day inviting people wanting more information to write to "Mr. T. V. Bond, Douglas, I.O.M"? I think it was for holiday brochures back then - not tax-efficient financial products! Was there ever a real Mr. T. V. Bond?)
 
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I once worked for a British Asian man who would use a mixture of his own name, and a "British-sounding" alias when dealing with people. He had chosen to use a "British sounding" name in some cases to avoid prejudice and racism and had quite a good RP accent he could switch on at will. No problem with that, per-se, except the convincing British definitely real name he chose was:

Adam Jones

It fooled virtually nobody.
 

Bletchleyite

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I once worked for a British Asian man who would use a mixture of his own name, and a "British-sounding" alias when dealing with people. He had chosen to use a "British sounding" name in some cases to avoid prejudice and racism and had quite a good RP accent he could switch on at will. No problem with that, per-se, except the convincing British definitely real name he chose was:

Adam Jones

It fooled virtually nobody.

It's completely normal for Chinese people to have "English names" due to the difficulty pronouncing the correct one. These often do sound a bit odd because there's often an understandable lack of Western cultural understanding behind the choice (in the case of people who live in China).
 

Merle Haggard

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It's completely normal for Chinese people to have "English names" due to the difficulty pronouncing the correct one. These often do sound a bit odd because there's often an understandable lack of Western cultural understanding behind the choice (in the case of people who live in China).
Tangentially, remember the late, great (imo) Rabbi Lionel Blue? He related against himself on the radio once that he was at school when he was told by the headmaster (I think) that his (Lionel's) mother had phoned to say that the family name had just been changed to 'Blue' to be more English sounding, on the understanding that colours were a normal English surname. Well, there's certainly Mr. & Mrs. White, Black, Brown, Green :).
 

SteveM70

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It's completely normal for Chinese people to have "English names" due to the difficulty pronouncing the correct one. These often do sound a bit odd because there's often an understandable lack of Western cultural understanding behind the choice (in the case of people who live in China)

In the early days of offshoring customer service call centres to India, there was a fashion for the call handlers to use English-sounding names *. Unfortunately their heavy accents somewhat gave the game away and they ended up sounding a bit daft. I remember having a conversation with "Victor", who unfortunately couldn't pronounce his own name, and instead kept saying "Wictor"





* A lot of them were also given training on "English culture" to enable them to have some background on their customers and be able to chat more generally to them. In my catalogue shopping company days, this included a requirement for the call centre people to watch Coronation Street and Eastenders
 

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