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TFW Liverpool-Cardiff

BrianW

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22 Mar 2017
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There is an argument that says with long gaps between trains, people think it's safe to cross. But with more frequent trains people are more cautious.
However, here the problem is holidaymakers unfamiliar with the area & in relaxed mode
Is there evidence that 'holidaymaker areas' have greater prevalence and more serious injuries than otherwise? Does this inform for instance provision of road crossings of different designs? IIRC, roadside barriers in Kensington were removed and accidents decreased. Are train horns effective? I note many trains passing W 'Whistle' signs without hearing a whistle being blown- maybe I'm losing my hearing? I don't wear earphones or ear defenders ;)
 
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frodshamfella

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There is an argument that says with long gaps between trains, people think it's safe to cross. But with more frequent trains people are more cautious.
However, here the problem is holidaymakers unfamiliar with the area & in relaxed mode

How about the line through Dawlish, its much busier. Put up bridges if its an issue.
 

Krokodil

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How about the line through Dawlish, its much busier.
How many foot crossings are still open on that line? I can only think of the one at Starcross. The benches had walls built behind them years ago after someone followed a loose dog and got hit.

Put up bridges if its an issue.
Too expensive. Unless you want to write a cheque?
 

frodshamfella

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How many foot crossings are still open on that line? I can only think of the one at Starcross. The benches had walls built behind them years ago after someone followed a loose dog and got hit.


Too expensive. Unless you want to write a cheque?

It wouldn't be too expensive if it was London. I can't believe something like this is holding up a reintroduction of a much needed service. God the wheels move so slow in the UK, if at all.
 

Jack Hay

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18 Aug 2016
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274
It wouldn't be too expensive if it was London. I can't believe something like this is holding up a reintroduction of a much needed service. God the wheels move so slow in the UK, if at all.
This is all about Network Rail. A few years ago they updated their risk calculation algorithm for crossings risk. If a service is proposed to be changed, the risk calculation is re-run using the new formulae and if it now says the risk is too high, NR say no. As you probably know, this is one of the things that stopped the second hourly service on the Mid Cheshire Line a few years ago. NR is a nationalised company (or as Labour would put it, "in public control", ha ha) so what NR says is gospel and there is no appeal. Moreover NR has no budget for improvements, so if a crossing carries risk, and that risk prevents a service starting, that's the end of the matter. If doesn't matter if you're the Mayor of Omnium, if NR says no, you can't have what you want.
 

Dr Day

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16 Oct 2018
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Bristol
Isn't it more 'if you want to run additional trains that trigger additional level crossing safety mitigation measures, then you have to pay for them'? So NR will upgrade level crossings, but only if DfT, WG, a freight company, a TOC or whoever benefits from the additional trains pays them to do so.
 

Jack Hay

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18 Aug 2016
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274
That's true, but with two problems. One is that the mitigation measures will be costed by NR, the potential funder won't have budgeted for this (how could they - it's an NR curve ball) and cannot get other quotes for the work; and the other is that the work has to be managed by NR in their own sweet time. So this rarely happens.
 

507020

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Southport
This is all about Network Rail. A few years ago they updated their risk calculation algorithm for crossings risk. If a service is proposed to be changed, the risk calculation is re-run using the new formulae and if it now says the risk is too high, NR say no. As you probably know, this is one of the things that stopped the second hourly service on the Mid Cheshire Line a few years ago. NR is a nationalised company (or as Labour would put it, "in public control", ha ha) so what NR says is gospel and there is no appeal. Moreover NR has no budget for improvements, so if a crossing carries risk, and that risk prevents a service starting, that's the end of the matter. If doesn't matter if you're the Mayor of Omnium, if NR says no, you can't have what you want.
I thought the ridiculous complaint with the Mid Cheshire line was about the length of time each hour that the crossings would be closed for, rather than any increased risk. With 4tph in each direction over multiple level crossings in quick succession through a populated area around here and being so familiar with them, using this as a reason not to run infrequent DMUs through rural Cheshire, or indeed the Welsh marches doesn’t seem to add up.
 

Western 52

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19 Jun 2020
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Burry Port
Does anyone know what the risk assessment formula for these crossings is? It would be interesting to see how it might work at similar locations that have more frequent services.
 

Krokodil

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I thought the ridiculous complaint with the Mid Cheshire line was about the length of time each hour that the crossings would be closed for, rather than any increased risk. With 4tph in each direction over multiple level crossings in quick succession through a populated area around here and being so familiar with them, using this as a reason not to run infrequent DMUs through rural Cheshire, or indeed the Welsh marches doesn’t seem to add up.
Longer crossing closures does increase the risk. If farmers start being frequently held at farm crossings and/or held for longer they'll just go "eff it, I'll go anyway".

Road crossings may be less of an issue because AHBs go down on the approach of a train rather than all traffic stopping as soon as it enters the section (which could be miles away).
 

stj

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15 Apr 2019
Messages
315
I thought the same as you about 197s going to Maesteg and Cheltenham as a temporary measure. But was told on a Facebook group quite a few times I was wrong and Maesteg etc would be stuck with Sprinters until the the FLIRTS take over.

I've not heard anything official that they Won't go to Maesteg as a temporary measure so I hope they will..

The Cardiff Liverpool service all appears to have gone very quiet. It appears they are concentrating on running existing services properly first!
Exactly,Cheltenham/Gloucester to Cardiff service is a joke at the moment due to cancellations from TfW and XC.
 

Jack Hay

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18 Aug 2016
Messages
274
I thought the ridiculous complaint with the Mid Cheshire line was about the length of time each hour that the crossings would be closed for, rather than any increased risk. With 4tph in each direction over multiple level crossings in quick succession through a populated area around here and being so familiar with them, using this as a reason not to run infrequent DMUs through rural Cheshire, or indeed the Welsh marches doesn’t seem to add up.
No, the issue about crossings on the Mid Cheshire concerned three farm access crossings. I think you are writing about the level crossings on the shared route with Metrolink. They weren't the problem.
 

Class 170101

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1 Mar 2014
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7,959
What I don't understand is why Network Rail are refusing to let TfW reinstate the pre-pandemic half-hourly frequency between Llandudno Junction and Llandudno on the basis of crossing risk at Deganwy. Surely Grandfather Rights can extend as far as 2019. It's a half-hourly frequency on weekends.

You would think so. How odd.

Sadly I don't find it odd (it should be) an example I'm aware of (not in Wales) had to be fought to get the service back to where it was pre covid, not higher just back to where it was before. I imagine there are other examples too.
 

Bikeman78

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26 Apr 2018
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Longer crossing closures does increase the risk. If farmers start being frequently held at farm crossings and/or held for longer they'll just go "eff it, I'll go anyway".

Road crossings may be less of an issue because AHBs go down on the approach of a train rather than all traffic stopping as soon as it enters the section (which could be miles away).
Though Network Rail wants to replace AHBs with full barrier crossings that are closed for longer. Parsonage Road in Horsham being a recent example. Often lengthy queues there now. Trains depart from Horsham on a single yellow and usually slow to a crawl at the next signal. So everyone loses.
 

childwallblues

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3 Jul 2014
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Liverpool, UK
At least TfW are re-instating the Monday to Saturday service from Chester to Liverpool from next Monday. The Sunday service has been hourly since before Christmas.
 

158841

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17 Aug 2017
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I wonder if this will bring in the 0556 Shrewsbury - Liverpool back into action. This currently terminates at Chester and parks in the bay.
 

FrodshamJnct

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14 Apr 2019
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Cheshire
The paths have been removed from RTT

I’ve asked on X and they’re “waiting on an update” and will get back to me.

Hourly again every day from Monday, woohoo

TFW have now confirmed it won’t return to hourly on Monday (to me on X):

…the hourly service won't resume on Monday, the minute we have an update from the team as to when the service will resume we will update you. Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.
 
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rich.davies

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18 Apr 2011
Messages
145
Location
Wrexham
I wonder if this will bring in the 0556 Shrewsbury - Liverpool back into action. This currently terminates at Chester and parks in the bay.
Is this service that previously ran from Shrewsbury via Wrexham. It now starts from Wrexham if so.
 

Jack Hay

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18 Aug 2016
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274
Does anybody know why this Liverpool-Chester service has been left with TfW? They should have been stripped of it years ago and it given to some operator with an interest in running it. The idea that they might one day extend it to somewhere in Wales is complete codswallop. You can't extend a service if you can't run the basic version. I think the people who need it, people who want it to run reliably, need to start campaigning to give TfW the boot.
 

Cambrian359

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17 Jun 2018
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Does anybody know why this Liverpool-Chester service has been left with TfW? They should have been stripped of it years ago and it given to some operator with an interest in running it. The idea that they might one day extend it to somewhere in Wales is complete codswallop. You can't extend a service if you can't run the basic version. I think the people who need it, people who want it to run reliably, need to start campaigning to give TfW the boot.
I’m pretty sure it didn’t exist until TFW proposed/implemented it after the required track work was done, Other operators could have done so but didn’t. (Happy to be corrected)
They also ordered enough new stock to cover it,it’s just unfortunate they’ve had problem after problem resulting in long term cancellations.by the end of this year we should see substantial improvements across the board.(hopefully much sooner)
 

Llandudno

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25 Dec 2014
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Does anybody know why this Liverpool-Chester service has been left with TfW? They should have been stripped of it years ago and it given to some operator with an interest in running it. The idea that they might one day extend it to somewhere in Wales is complete codswallop. You can't extend a service if you can't run the basic version. I think the people who need it, people who want it to run reliably, need to start campaigning to give TfW the boot.
Northern, TransPennine, Cross Country and Avanti can’t even fully resource their own timetables let alone take any more on…!

Liverpool - Cardiff maybe of interest to an open access operator though…?
 

Krokodil

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23 Jan 2023
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Does anybody know why this Liverpool-Chester service has been left with TfW? They should have been stripped of it years ago and it given to some operator with an interest in running it. The idea that they might one day extend it to somewhere in Wales is complete codswallop. You can't extend a service if you can't run the basic version. I think the people who need it, people who want it to run reliably, need to start campaigning to give TfW the boot.
Perhaps you'd like to ask the people of Ellesmere Port how often Northern turn up for the two trains a day between there and Helsby. Looking at Recent Train Times that service gets cancelled more often than it runs. At least TfW tend to provide the timetabled service most of the time.
 

Djgr

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30 Jul 2018
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Does anybody know why this Liverpool-Chester service has been left with TfW? They should have been stripped of it years ago and it given to some operator with an interest in running it. The idea that they might one day extend it to somewhere in Wales is complete codswallop. You can't extend a service if you can't run the basic version. I think the people who need it, people who want it to run reliably, need to start campaigning to give TfW the boot.
It only reopened as a regular service in 2019!!!
 

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