DfT Considering removing first class seats on the HS2 train spec to increase capacity

[RailWonderer]

As reported on the FT

HS2 considers scrapping first-class seats to maintain passenger capacity
https://on.ft.com/42vkkhP

First-class seats could be scrapped on Britain’s new High Speed 2 train line as officials look for ways to avoid a drop in passenger capacity on the troubled rail link after Rishi Sunak tore up much of the planned route.

An internal government document seen by the Financial Times said capacity would drop from 1,690 to 1,530 seats per hour between London and Manchester, undermining the original aim of HS2, which was to hugely increase capacity on the railway system between the north and south.

“They are serious about ripping out the first class, it’s another nail in the coffin of this being some kind of superior rail service but it’s probably less embarrassing than ending up with lower capacity,” said one senior rail industry figure.

A senior industry executive also confirmed there had been discussions about getting rid of first class, which they said could be a “short-term solution” to the capacity problems.

But they added that would be “another downgrade” for the line and turn it into a glorified commuter railway.

The Department for Transport insisted the government was still planning for first-class seats: “The contract to design and build HS2 trains includes both standard and first-class areas for passengers.”

It also mentions tethering two 250m trains (Pendolino length) would be too long for most platforms.

The assumption is still that almost all WCML services will be HS2 operated but shouldn’t they keep more legacy services to maintain capacity that way rather than move it all over to HS2?

There will still be plenty of demand for Pendolino and Voyager operated services especially if they are cheaper than HS2 services. I think it’s very shortsighted as things stand to move it all to HS2 as you’d be removing capacity and reducing revenue opportunities for first turning it into glorified commuter rail. What does the forum think?

 

[class ep-09]

As reported on the FT

HS2 considers scrapping first-class seats to maintain passenger capacity
https://on.ft.com/42vkkhP









It also mentions tethering two 250m trains (Pendolino length) would be too long for most platforms.

The assumption is still that almost all WCML services will be HS2 operated but shouldn’t they keep more legacy services to maintain capacity that way rather than move it all over to HS2?

There will still be plenty of demand for Pendolino and Voyager operated services especially if they are cheaper than HS2 services. I think it’s very shortsighted as things stand to move it all to HS2 as you’d be removing capacity and reducing revenue opportunities for first turning it into glorified commuter rail. What does the forum think?

All seats should be removed and that way capacity will be at maximum …

On serious note - if that comes true , I am lost for words .

 

[A S Leib]

Are there currently any non-UK high-speed operators without first class? I think OuiGo still has some seats with more room, even if they're not called first class.

I know Southeastern High Speed doesn't have first class anymore either, but the longest journeys on that should still be under two hours and was competing with Southeastern's existing services rather than complimentary LNER and Avanti meals and room.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an interesting idea. Chiltern doesn't have First Class (other than the silver sets where it's declassified), and for Manchester the journey times are very much comparable with Chiltern to Brum. One could argue only the Glasgows really justify it.

 

[Bantamzen]

How popular is 1st Class on Avanti these days? If it is well used then there will demand for a Premium product on HS2, and canning it would not seem to make a lot of sense.

 

[43096]

It's an interesting idea. Chiltern doesn't have First Class (other than the silver sets where it's declassified), and for Manchester the journey times are very much comparable with Chiltern to Brum. One could argue only the Glasgows really justify it.

It’s a terrible idea, but totally unsurprising - the race to the bottom continues.

Other than possibly low-cost operations, I can’t think of any other high speed operation that doesn’t have some form of premium accommodation. HS2 will certainly not be a low cost operation.

 

[Meerkat]

Any chance this is shroud waving? Trying to embarrass the politicians into coughing up more money?
Though I am a bit confused.....surely this drop in capacity was always going to happen for the fairly considerable gap between phase 1 opening and phase 2 being completed to Manchester?? What was the plan to cover that?

 

[CarrotPie]

I know Southeastern High Speed doesn't have first class anymore either, but the longest journeys on that should still be under two hours and was competing with Southeastern's existing services rather than complimentary LNER and Avanti meals and room.

SEHS never had First.

 

[Tezza1978]

They might reduce the 1st class seats but canning it entirely seems very unlikely - as would lose revenue. Can't see the Northern mayors being in support of that either in their meeting with Harper next week as no first class would be seriously offputting to business travellers.

 

[Route115?]

I cannot believe that capacity will be a problem on HS2 for a long time, although it must be necessary to rejig train lengths (if existing contracts allow it). Of course, one solution would be to shorten pendolinos to 200m (probably 8 vehicles as they originally were) and to run two in multiple, quite possibly uncoupling them at locations such as Crewe.

I wonder if some business traffic will be lost if first class is withdrawn. At the time of privatisation Virgin trains in particular, but also GNER, MML & GW increased service in First to try and atteact this lucrative traffic. The original provision of 1st in pendolinos was much too high (4 out 8 vehicles, although the plan was to sell some as upgraded standard at quieter times) and business traffic has significantly declined post covid, but I think that there will still be a demand for 1st on HS though it may have to be adjusted downward.

Interestingly long haul airlines are experiencing reduced demand for business travel but an increased demand for leisure traffic in their premium cabins so the overall loads are often still quite good.

 

[eldomtom2]

Can't see the Northern mayors being in support of that either in their meeting with Harper next week as no first class would be seriously offputting to business travellers.

Well the Northern mayors weren't in favour of cancelling Phase 2 and we know how that went...

 

[HSTEd]

The assumption is still that almost all WCML services will be HS2 operated but shouldn’t they keep more legacy services to maintain capacity that way rather than move it all over to HS2?

There will still be plenty of demand for Pendolino and Voyager operated services especially if they are cheaper than HS2 services. I think it’s very shortsighted as things stand to move it all to HS2 as you’d be removing capacity and reducing revenue opportunities for first turning it into glorified commuter rail. What does the forum think?

Why would the Pendolino services be cheaper than HS2?
They would cost the railway more to operate.

The money to burn subsidising the Pendolinos to be cheaper tha HS2 so that people keep using them is unlikely to be available in the current environment.

Meanwhile, due to first class seating being only three abreast and having a longer seat pitch, each first class seat takes up rather more room than a standard class seat, which tends to offset the financial benefits to some degree.
But the real answer is someone has to pay for a 400m platform rebuild at Piccadilly.

 

[172007]

I seem to remember years ago if not over a decade ago and possibly from "Greengauge 21" that HS2 would be a rack em and stack em strategy. Better to have full trains with bargain basement tickets than a M6 Toll premium cost and very few use it. Not having first class would almost be suggesting this strategy idea is still in some current thinking.

I was half expecting and still am that HS2 will have an airline overly complicated set up with 1st, premium Buiness, club and then coach.

 

[Route115?]

Why would the Pendolino services be cheaper than HS2?
They would cost the railway more to operate.

The money to burn subsidising the Pendolinos to be cheaper tha HS2 so that people keep using them is unlikely to be available in the current

You need pendolinos (or their replacements) to serve intermediate stations, certainly for social reasons. You will then have some slack at quiet times giving capacity that can be discounted. You will also get split ticketing. The importance of intermediate stations stations can get overlooked (although fortunately TOCs have been tending to put more intermediate stops in trains). Not every journey is city centre to city centre and please don't reply on parkways in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Energy]

You need pendolinos (or their replacements) to serve intermediate stations, certainly for social reasons.

Currently it's only to serve Coventry and MK (and somewhat Rugby). You can easily do that with a 1tph Wolverhampton and 1tph Edinburgh via Birmingham.

You will also get split ticketing

This isn't a positive for the railway, split ticketing only exists because our fares system is far from perfect.

 

[weeklycommuter]

High Speed Two trains should be filled with standard class only two plus two seating like the Southeastern High Speed Javelins to maximise the number of seats. There should be no first class on High Speed Two trains.

 

[SynthD]

The original end goal, as I recall it, was captive sets to Birmingham and Manchester, and classic compatible sets to Crewe and beyond. The captive journeys will be shorter, barely able to offer first class service expectations. Everything else may well need first class, but maybe hold back on the kitchen and bar.

Related: are there first class lounges at OOC, Curzon St and Birmingham Interchange?

 

[weeklycommuter]

The original end goal, as I recall it, was captive sets to Birmingham and Manchester, and classic compatible sets to Crewe and beyond. The captive journeys will be shorter, barely able to offer first class service expectations. Everything else may well need first class, but maybe hold back on the kitchen and bar.

Related: are there first class lounges at OOC, Curzon St and Birmingham Interchange?

The plan is to use the same 200 metre long eight coach sets for all services, either as single sets or double sets.

 

[Energy]

The plan is to use the same 200 metre long eight coach sets for all services, either as single sets or double sets.

The original end goal, as I recall it, was captive sets to Birmingham and Manchester, and classic compatible sets to Crewe and beyond. The captive journeys will be shorter, barely able to offer first class service expectations. Everything else may well need first class, but maybe hold back on the kitchen and bar.

Classic compatible only for phase 1 (and 2a if it happens). Additional captive sets were proposed for when 2b opened.

A high density, 2+2

 

[philosopher]

The original end goal, as I recall it, was captive sets to Birmingham and Manchester, and classic compatible sets to Crewe and beyond. The captive journeys will be shorter, barely able to offer first class service expectations. Everything else may well need first class, but maybe hold back on the kitchen and bar.

Related: are there first class lounges at OOC, Curzon St and Birmingham Interchange?

From London and Birmingham, the short journey times on HS2 means that you could probably get away three abreast seating with a drink and a snack such as some biscuits in First Class.

 

[Krokodil]

cannot believe that capacity will be a problem on HS2 for a long time

Given that you won't be able to run double sets to Manchester without Phase 2B, there's going to be a very big problem.

 

[HSTEd]

Given that you won't be able to run double sets to Manchester without Phase 2B, there's going to be a very big problem.

Well this is not strictly true. You will not be able to run double sets to Manchester without provision of 400m platforms at Manchester.

This is a significantly smaller problem than "no 400m without Phase 2B"

 

[Krokodil]

Well this is not strictly true. You will not be able to run double sets to Manchester without provision of 400m platforms at Manchester.

This is a significantly smaller problem than "no 400m without Phase 2B"

There is now no plan to build 400m platforms so until the government announces one then the point stands.

 

[yorksrob]

They're talking about a reduction in seats.

Surely there should be an InterCity service from manchester via the classic line that takes in some of the intermediate stops !

 

[Nottingham59]

FT

HS2 considers scrapping first-class seats to maintain passenger capacity

Naah. It's just a way for the government trying to pretend that Sunak hasn't cut the capacity to Manchester. As a story it will go away after the next election.

 

[Starmill]

They're talking about a reduction in seats.

Surely there should be an InterCity service from manchester via the classic line that takes in some of the intermediate stops !

They're all using the same lines between Handsacre and Manchester Piccadilly? More trains could run from Rugby to London Euston but not Manchester.

Currently it's only to serve Coventry and MK (and somewhat Rugby). You can easily do that with a 1tph Wolverhampton and 1tph Edinburgh via Birmingham.

They would be swamped though if they served all intermediates because the HS2 service can't get to Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're talking about a reduction in seats.

Surely there should be an InterCity service from manchester via the classic line that takes in some of the intermediate stops !

1tph classic line is likely though you'd have to price people onto it.

Well this is not strictly true. You will not be able to run double sets to Manchester without provision of 400m platforms at Manchester.

This is a significantly smaller problem than "no 400m without Phase 2B"

Indeed, it'd be no bigger a job than the Liverpool Lime St rebuild.

 

[Starmill]

1tph classic line is likely though you'd have to price people onto it.

I doubt that very much. Even Euston will be a better passenger experience than the nightmare Old Oak Common is going to be at this rate, given it's so much further away and accessible only by a laughably under-capacity crossrail service.

Indeed, it'd be no bigger a job than the Liverpool Lime St rebuild.

Liverpool Lime Street didn't take any land. Manchester Piccadilly would, unless you were happy to close two platforms permanently to fit the extension in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool Lime Street didn't take any land. Manchester Piccadilly would, unless you were happy to close two platforms permanently to fit the extension in.

The land it would take (basically moving P1-3 onto the car park so the existing central 300m ish platforms can widen and extend to 400) is already railway owned.

 

[Starmill]

The land it would take (basically moving P1-3 onto the car park so the existing central 300m ish platforms can widen and extend to 400) is already railway owned.

Plenty of that land has been leased or is very very close to a public highway. Some of it is also probably not railway owned e.g. the car park which has a footbridge connection. It wouldn't be impossible obviously, I'm simply saying it would be more expensive and unpopular because there are a lot more stakeholders involved.