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Vaping on Trains and vaping in general

Krokodil

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?????

Have no problem with them being banned (love drugs, hate littering) but they are not a national emergency, are we seriously trying to legislate something in a week? And if so, why this? That's stupid, they'll screw it up.
Those things are dangerous, the batteries have started a number of bin fires or fires at waste depots.

Have you not noticed a big reduction in cigarette ends though? Seems to have dropped off substantially as vaping has increased and it's a lot easier to pick up a handful of disposable vapes vs thousands of tiny fag ends surely?
Not particularly, though I think that the move to kick smokers outdoors resulted in more provision of those wall-mounted bins.

For those who think that we should just let people smoke at the ends of platforms, consider this disgusting scene at Innsbruck:

DSC_1260.JPG

Vaping has been, by far, the most successful public health innovation probably in a century.
If it were just a way of getting ex-smokers off of the habit then this would be true. In practice though kids who might never have taken up smoking are doing considerable harm to their lungs because they are constantly puffing on the things.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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Nicotine in itself isn’t harmful to health?
Only to about the same extent of coffee

I don't vape , but if any of the people moaning about vapers have ever drunk alcohol on a train, they are much bigger hypocrites considering a beer is much more smelly to the other passengers
 
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Krokodil

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I don't vape , but if any of the people moaning about vapers have ever drunk alcohol on a train, they are much bigger hypocrites considering a beer is much more smelly to the other passengers
Not that I have every drunk alcohol on a train, but you have to be pretty close to a beer to smell it. Those clouds of fog on the other hand...
 

Thirteen

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The amount of nicotine in the vapes is what is the issue. I think they should go further and ban flavoured vapes or make sure they're marketed in a non colourful way.
 

Mikey C

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Only to about the same extent of coffee

I don't vape , but if any of the people moaning about vapers have ever drunk alcohol on a train, they are much bigger hypocrites considering a beer is much more smelly to the other passengers
No it isn't unless you spill it!
 

Kite159

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The amount of nicotine in the vapes is what is the issue. I think they should go further and ban flavoured vapes or make sure they're marketed in a non colourful way.
Agreed. Maybe even pushed underneath counters out of sight like cigarettes are.
 

VauxhallandI

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Those things are dangerous, the batteries have started a number of bin fires or fires at waste depots.


Not particularly, though I think that the move to kick smokers outdoors resulted in more provision of those wall-mounted bins.

For those who think that we should just let people smoke at the ends of platforms, consider this disgusting scene at Innsbruck:

View attachment 142709


If it were just a way of getting ex-smokers off of the habit then this would be true. In practice though kids who might never have taken up smoking are doing considerable harm to their lungs because they are constantly puffing on the things.
Are we really sure they wouldnt have taken up smoking instead?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Leaving aside the bit about vaping on trains (which shouldn't be permitted), the rise of vapes is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's probably a fair bit less harmful than smoking (though AIUI the jury is very much still out on how much less harmful)... on the other hand, the idea that it's "safer than smoking" means there's less incentive for people to quit nicotine altogether. The tobacco companies know this, which is why they've invested heavily into vaping. The fact that it does seem popular among younger people is a worry, particularly given the image it has as a "safe" alternative.

On a personal level, vaping didn't really help me to quit smoking. When I first decided to stop, I tried a vape pen thinking that it would reduce cravings and keep my hands and mouth occupied (oo-er missus!) at times when I'd previously have had a cigarette- while waiting for a bus, for example. However I realised this was just reinforcing the habitual behaviour, and wasn't quite scratching the itch either as my throat and lungs hadn't got used to the feel of the vapour.
For me cold turkey actually was the best method... if I get tempted I just remind myself how nice it is to not stink like an ashtray, and to be able to taste food again!
 

Mikey C

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I've nothing against the concept of vaping, but do disagree with how widespread and "mainstream" vape shops have become. It feels bizarre to have prominent vape kiosks in the middle of shopping centre aisles for example, when you would never have been allowed to sell cigarettes there.
 

Howardh

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Not in these numbers, some of these kids are pretty young. They certainly wouldn't be lighting up every five minutes either.
As far as kids are concerned, unless they are given cigs by adults, they would (a) find them very difficult to buy and (b) find it difficult to find a place to smoke them particularly indoors - as indeed adults do. However I understand these vape things can be "smoked" (??) almost anywhere, which suggests they might even be used in classrooms behind the teacher's back, never mind the rest of the school. Any teachers on here confirm that?
But, apart from the horrid clouds, I wonder how many (especially kids) use them who have never smoked, because it's the "in" thing to do?? So where they couldn't smoke, we are growing a nation of addicts of something else??
 

WesternBiker

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Leaving aside the bit about vaping on trains (which shouldn't be permitted), the rise of vapes is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's probably a fair bit less harmful than smoking (though AIUI the jury is very much still out on how much less harmful)... on the other hand, the idea that it's "safer than smoking" means there's less incentive for people to quit nicotine altogether. The tobacco companies know this, which is why they've invested heavily into vaping. The fact that it does seem popular among younger people is a worry, particularly given the image it has as a "safe" alternative.
The jury is indeed still out on just how safe - but a lot depends on the quality of the vaping liquid: the constituents have been found to vary enormously. Some have been found to contain benzenes and heavy metals, and the heating elements and wicks themselves can give off harmful chemicals if they are not operating as they should. I suspect that the vape liquids found in the cheap disposable vapes may be of more variable quality.

As with lots of products, Customs and Trading Standards just don't have the resources to check enough batches. In their own words the Chartered Trading Standards Institute has said: "Vaping has been a key area of focus for CTSI this year, trying to navigate the challenges presented to Trading Standards teams nationally with non-compliant vapes flooding the UK market and the surge of underage sales." [My bold]

The link is here if anyone is interested: https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy-campaigns/vaping-resource-hub/
 

Thirteen

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Agreed. Maybe even pushed underneath counters out of sight like cigarettes are.
I think making them as dull as possible and banning them from being displayed in shopping centres would work. I do think updating the byelaws on railways would cut down on people vaping on train and other public transport.

As far as kids are concerned, unless they are given cigs by adults, they would (a) find them very difficult to buy and (b) find it difficult to find a place to smoke them particularly indoors - as indeed adults do. However I understand these vape things can be "smoked" (??) almost anywhere, which suggests they might even be used in classrooms behind the teacher's back, never mind the rest of the school. Any teachers on here confirm that?
But, apart from the horrid clouds, I wonder how many (especially kids) use them who have never smoked, because it's the "in" thing to do?? So where they couldn't smoke, we are growing a nation of addicts of something else??
I assume any kid caught vaping would be sent straight to the headteacher.

The jury is indeed still out on just how safe - but a lot depends on the quality of the vaping liquid: the constituents have been found to vary enormously. Some have been found to contain benzenes and heavy metals, and the heating elements and wicks themselves can give off harmful chemicals if they are not operating as they should. I suspect that the vape liquids found in the cheap disposable vapes may be of more variable quality.

As with lots of products, Customs and Trading Standards just don't have the resources to check enough batches. In their own words the Chartered Trading Standards Institute has said: "Vaping has been a key area of focus for CTSI this year, trying to navigate the challenges presented to Trading Standards teams nationally with non-compliant vapes flooding the UK market and the surge of underage sales." [My bold]

The link is here if anyone is interested: https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy-campaigns/vaping-resource-hub/

Given the amount of negative publicity surrounding Vapes, it's a matter of time before they're regulated heavily.
 

mrmartin

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Leaving aside the bit about vaping on trains (which shouldn't be permitted), the rise of vapes is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's probably a fair bit less harmful than smoking (though AIUI the jury is very much still out on how much less harmful)... on the other hand, the idea that it's "safer than smoking" means there's less incentive for people to quit nicotine altogether. The tobacco companies know this, which is why they've invested heavily into vaping. The fact that it does seem popular among younger people is a worry, particularly given the image it has as a "safe" alternative.

On a personal level, vaping didn't really help me to quit smoking. When I first decided to stop, I tried a vape pen thinking that it would reduce cravings and keep my hands and mouth occupied (oo-er missus!) at times when I'd previously have had a cigarette- while waiting for a bus, for example. However I realised this was just reinforcing the habitual behaviour, and wasn't quite scratching the itch either as my throat and lungs hadn't got used to the feel of the vapour.
For me cold turkey actually was the best method... if I get tempted I just remind myself how nice it is to not stink like an ashtray, and to be able to taste food again!
If you were a heavyish smoker you'll find it difficult to come off cigs with 20mg/ml eliquid. I only managed it with 50mg liquid, which I then titrated down to 35 and then 20. Unfortunately EU laws limit it legally to 20mg but you can get 50mg or 35mg stuff off the internet.

The reason is a normal cig is at least 50mg/ml equivalent plus a lot of other chemicals which reinforce the nicotine. I imagine a roll your own cig is more like 100mg.

Regarding kids, less than 3% of schoolchildren smoke now. This used to be even 20 years ago more like 30%. 3% smoking + 15% vaping is a lot lot better than 30% smoking.
 

61653 HTAFC

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If you were a heavyish smoker you'll find it difficult to come off cigs with 20mg/ml eliquid. I only managed it with 50mg liquid, which I then titrated down to 35 and then 20. Unfortunately EU laws limit it legally to 20mg but you can get 50mg or 35mg stuff off the internet.

The reason is a normal cig is at least 50mg/ml equivalent plus a lot of other chemicals which reinforce the nicotine. I imagine a roll your own cig is more like 100mg.

Regarding kids, less than 3% of schoolchildren smoke now. This used to be even 20 years ago more like 30%. 3% smoking + 15% vaping is a lot lot better than 30% smoking.
I was never a really heavy smoker, my peak would have been around 10-12 cigarettes a day. For me the "habit" was harder to break than the nicotine cravings, or at least that was how it felt. Once I realised that the various forms of 'replacement nicotine' (gum, patches, pouches, vapes) weren't going to work, it dawned on me that the way out was through. Cold turkey is tough, but the replacement therapies are just prolonging the addiction.
 

BanburyBlue

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Interesting that I gave a lift home the other day to a colleague who was a smoker. He tried vaping, but has since gone back to cigarettes. His view was that as a smoker he would have a cigarette perhaps once an hour, but when he tried vaping, he was vaping continuously. So, in his mind, better to have a cigarette once an hour, then vape continually for 14 hours.

As an aside, I was travelling back from Birmingham Moor Street the other day. Just before departure, a group of teenagers jumped on (15 year old-ish) and started vaping, trying to hide it. I must have had a bad day at work, because I wouldn't normally do this, but I snarled "you know these trains are no smoking". They all looked sheepish and all meekly put their vapes back in their pockets. I was a tad surprised, and wondered what I was thinking later that day, challenging a group of teenagers in that manner. I must have had a really grumpy face on - LOL.
 

VauxhallandI

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Not in these numbers, some of these kids are pretty young. They certainly wouldn't be lighting up every five minutes either.
Well I def agree with the fact that there is no end of a vape session

Interesting that I gave a lift home the other day to a colleague who was a smoker. He tried vaping, but has since gone back to cigarettes. His view was that as a smoker he would have a cigarette perhaps once an hour, but when he tried vaping, he was vaping continuously. So, in his mind, better to have a cigarette once an hour, then vape continually for 14 hours.

As an aside, I was travelling back from Birmingham Moor Street the other day. Just before departure, a group of teenagers jumped on (15 year old-ish) and started vaping, trying to hide it. I must have had a bad day at work, because I wouldn't normally do this, but I snarled "you know these trains are no smoking". They all looked sheepish and all meekly put their vapes back in their pockets. I was a tad surprised, and wondered what I was thinking later that day, challenging a group of teenagers in that manner. I must have had a really grumpy face on - LOL.
Tell him to try IQOS, heated tobacco, it is limited to 6 mins and is 75% better than a cigarette
 

Meerkat

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The flavoured Vapes smell revoltingly sickly. Even as a non-smoker I would rather smell proper cigarette smoke.
Also pretty concerned about what is in the vapour from the knock off imports - presumably as the kids aren’t supposed to buy them their sources are more likely to sell them dodgy ones.
I am also bemused by them. When I was a kid smoking was the cool, tough, thing to do. How can stinking of mango and passion fruit be cool or tough?!
I assume kids love disposables as they can buy them whilst out and have nothing for their parents to find at home. Another reason to ban them (on top of the catastrophic environmental issues, and all the blatant money laundering shops that sell them)
 

Thirteen

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Disposable vapes to be banned in the UK:

TBH this was long overdue. The next step is to treat vaping in public places and public transport like smoking with heavy fines.
 

Neo9320

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Disposable vapes to be banned in the UK:

TBH this was long overdue. The next step is to treat vaping in public places and public transport like smoking with heavy fines.
I was overjoyed to see this pop up on my news alerts earlier.

Even as a smoker myself, those disposable vapes are just eye candy for kids, and personally I’m fed up of seeing them chucked all over the place.

This is very overdue.
 

HBP

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TBH this was long overdue. The next step is to treat vaping in public places and public transport like smoking with heavy fines.
As an ex smoker of 1290 days and counting is vaping a real issue on public transport?

I travel several hundreds of miles per week by train and can’t say I’ve seen or whiffed it very often, if ever really.
 

Egg Centric

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I was overjoyed to see this pop up on my news alerts earlier.

Even as a smoker myself, those disposable vapes are just eye candy for kids, and personally I’m fed up of seeing them chucked all over the place.

This is very overdue.

As a non smoker, I was depressed*. There is no sensible way to define a disposable vape so either we have a pointless easy to circumvent ban by making something tenuously reusable (eg retail a £700 repair kit) or something hideously intrusive or finally something banning way more. Maybe we get all three.

*not literally lol, just a bit of a mental grumble. But I doubt @Neo9320 was literally overjoyed either
 

alex397

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As an ex smoker of 1290 days and counting is vaping a real issue on public transport?

I travel several hundreds of miles per week by train and can’t say I’ve seen or whiffed it very often, if ever really.
In all my lifelong travels on bus and train, I’ve never seen anyone smoke a cigarette on public transport*, but the last couple of years I’ve seen people vaping on the bus and train quite a bit - usually the groups of youths that like to pretend they are cool and interesting. It’s easy for them to do on the train, as conductors usually just stay in one carriage and don’t walk through the train. On the bus, it tends to be those that favour the rear of the top deck, and I doubt many people would want to confront them

* Actually, there was an interesting character smoking a cigarette on the Piccadilly Line last week. I was slightly concerned it might not be extinguished properly!
 

jon0844

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It's quite amazing the Government has taken this long to deal with the issue of children vaping, and the e-waste generated from single use vapes.

The industry was ALWAYS going to market to youngsters and nobody seriously believed they were just trying to help smokers kick their habit. From day one, companies sent me (and other magazines and papers) their vapes to promote in the technology/gadget pages, and the slick advertising is to make it look cool to vape - and I can't actually remember the last time any company even pretended you could use one to give up smoking.

Now it's a multi million (billion?) pound industry, which is why they're sold everywhere (with very few people questioning the ingredients or considering our lack of border checks, meaning absolutely anything can be smuggled in).

I have no issue with people wanting to vape, but not kids who are so quickly addicted that they can't help but vape almost every second of the day. That's why they're vaping in McDonald's, on buses, trains and probably everywhere. I have no idea how schools are dealing with it, but know schools ARE consulting with councils and parents right now - so it obviously IS affecting school grounds too. I bet some kids have even vaped in classes due to their addiction.

I am sure the Government will bodge it and we'll still see disposable vapes being smuggled in, and we'll still have suspect chemical mixes that avoid regulation. Whenever there's huge profits, there will be criminal activity. Plus, unlike smoking, I think most people if questioned would argue that vaping shouldn't be regulated at all and is harmless.
 

pokemonsuper9

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. I have no idea how schools are dealing with it,
They try and fail (as of 2 years ago)
Most schools have a place people can avoid being seen by staff for a brief period.

In college I rarely see people vaping inside, with most people choosing to go outside.

I dislike the smell of Vapes more than cigarettes, I like my air to not smell of sweetener.
 

Kite159

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I was on a train on Saturday where a couple of university students boarded from Musslesburgh complaining that one of them got into trouble by vaping in her bedroom setting off the fire alarm.

As for the ban, it won't work, the manufacturers will simply find a loophole to say 'they are not disposable as you can refill them' by making the refill process as hard as possible and selling the liquid for something stupid like £50 for a bottle. The best way will be to do away with the various flavours, make the packets more plain. Bit like cigarettes before they got hidden from view
 

jon81uk

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As for the ban, it won't work, the manufacturers will simply find a loophole to say 'they are not disposable as you can refill them' by making the refill process as hard as possible and selling the liquid for something stupid like £50 for a bottle. The best way will be to do away with the various flavours, make the packets more plain. Bit like cigarettes before they got hidden from view
I would expect the disposable nature will be more about the battery, so it would need to be refillable and rechargeable. One major reason for the ban is the fire risk with the lithium batteries.
 

dgl

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I also agree that the way to discourage their use is no child friendly packaging it flavours, if you're using then as a stop smoking aid then the lack of fancy flavours should not be an issue.
Also crack down on the shops selling them to people under age, in Weymouth there was one now closed shop where everyone knew age checks were non-existent hence its closure.

As for stopping the sale of disposable vapes what also needs to be done is to set out standards the refillable one must meet to be allowed to be classed as refillable. Basically they must be easy to refill and the refills have to be cost effective.
 

Fermiboson

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Without expressing any opinion otherwise on the recent ban of disposable vapes, the general "trendiness" of vapes, or vaping on transport specifically, I do think it is important to clarify the actual comparison of social harm done by cigarettes vs. vapes.

Cigarettes, as I'm sure everyone is aware by now, are addictive and cause cancer. The addictive component is caused by nicotine, but the carcinogenic component is tar. Nicotine, by itself, does not have major heath effects aside from the usual problems caused by addiction in general. The idea of e-cigarettes, heated tobacco, vaping, etc. is to isolate one from the other. The product still has nicotine and hence can satisfy a nicotine dependency, but does not have tar and hence is not carcinogenic, or indeed very harmful at all aside from the usual problems with inhaling smoke particles. In effect, it is a much more potent and very annoying nicotine patch.

Now, there is no doubt that inhaling smoke is not something we should be recommending people do. If the alternative is inhaling carcinogenic smoke, however, the calculus does change. Moreover, many studies have shown that vaping is much more effective than nicotine patches in terms of preventing relapse in smoking addicts, which is why it is a highly effective addiction harm reduction solution (i.e. a solution that does not aim to get rid of the addiction entirely, which is usually highly resource intensive, unlikely to succeed and causes great suffering, but instead reduces to a minimum of the (disability adjusted) life years lost due to the addiction).

In order for vaping to be an effective harm reduction solution, several things need to happen:
- it needs to be legal and obtainable (obviously), and some might argue more accessible (as not everyone that needs it can access a doctor or other addiction management resources to obtain a recommendation to use vapes);
- its health risks need to be well understood by smokers and non-smokers alike;
- its use needs to be less stigmatised in society than smoking is.

One will notice that items 2 and 3 both require some sort of public outreach with positive coverage of vaping. This may naturally be highly uncomfortable to many, but unfortunately the general public is not known for its understanding of nuances such as "A is better than B but worse than C".

With regard to the health risk posed by vaping, there has not been the same kind of long term study that smoking has been subject to, so its long term effects cannot be absolutely ascertained. However, with the result of short term trials and understanding of the biochemistry going on inside vapes and tobacco, most studies put an upper bound on the average DALYs lost through vaping at at most 5% of those lost through tobacco within the same population. That is, to take a simple example, if a person smoked and as a result keeled over at 40 instead of age 80, then if the same person was vaping, the earliest they are likely keel over as a result of vaping is 78. (There are, of course, statistical nuances here.)

It is a matter of heated academic debate to what extent this is a significant effect, but unquestionably, destigmatisation and wider availability of vapes will lead to a larger number of people vaping than would otherwise have been smoking, especially among younger populations. However, given the massive difference in lethality, from a public health point of view even if vaping advertisements and propaganda convinced everyone everywhere to vape, it would still save lives. This is of course also a highly undesirable outcome, but the fact is that less people would die than currently do!

The main situation in which this social benefit would not come about is if circumstances attracted new people to vape, but at the same time failed to convince any smokers to switch to vaping. There are certainly good points to be made about vaping companies using flavours and packaging to target children and exclude adults (although even if vaping companies convinced all 15-year olds to smoke, that would still save lives given that more than 5% of 15-year-olds smoke currently!), however it does transpire that the grown adult smoker can sometimes be more childish than children. Trials in the US have shown that middle-aged adult smokers are much, much more likely to switch to flavoured vapes than non-flavoured vapes. So, undoubtedly to the shock and horror of every parent and school on this planet, it is possible to argue with a straight face that these goofy packaging and flavourings do still save lives and are a net social good, despite this not being the primary intention of vaping companies. Of course, I imagine that the discussion surrounding say Peter Rabbit themed vapes may be a bit different.

I had the opportunity to pose the question of harm caused by vaping attracting children and teenagers to an American professor advising the government on economic policy relating to addiction management last summer. The answer was as follows:
There is no way in hell vaping becoming more popular will kill anyone, because the risk between smoking and vaping is simply so imbalanced. Any attempts to restrict the growth of the number of youths who vape has to be done by addressing the root cause of why they want to get addicted to something in the first place.
As with many things in life, it does appear that restriction of a bad thing is not something that works, period, and a softer approach must be taken.
 

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