June 2024 reopening of the line between Clitheroe and Hellifield for passenger trains

[yorksrob]

Would a North Workington type station the length of Beauly station be built at Chatburn and Gisburn to test the water if the line is going to be used daily all year round? Any extra passengers would help the balance sheet for the line.

Nothing to stop it (I assume the Spellar act is still on the books).

 

[Jack Hay]

Would a North Workington type station the length of Beauly station be built at Chatburn and Gisburn to test the water if the line is going to be used daily all year round? Any extra passengers would help the balance sheet for the line.

I think you need stock with selective door opening for that (Beauly type of short platform) and most Northern stock hasn't got it. Certainly not the 156s which are likely to be used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you need stock with selective door opening for that (Beauly type of short platform) and most Northern stock hasn't got it. Certainly not the 156s which are likely to be used.

You can use local door which is how it's done in Scotland.

 

[Jack Hay]

With the popularity of the Hope Valley services, at the right price this could be a very popular walker's destination from Manchester - even more so with a two-hourly service than the infrequent DalesRail. Horton and Ribblehead are I'd think the two most popular walkers' destinations, and obviously there's the option of a day out in Settle too - I think this could potentially do quite well, at least on a Saturday.

Yes, I think the same, and regarding price; I think Northern said something to stakeholders about needing to get the fare structure right for this. At the moment a day return from Manchester to Ribblehead, route via Leeds, is just under £40 (no railcard), and that is too high for the leisure market they're trying to capture. I think they'll be aiming to get the fare near to £20 (M/cr-Ribblehead return, via Clitheroe) but they need a way to do it without disrupting the fare structure for lots of other journeys. Also, at this kind of price, they'll want to fill the train if possible with people travelling the full length of the journey - it won't work if it becomes a short hop stopping service. So I don't expect it to call at every station en route (and if it did, the end-to-end journey time would probably be too long to attract a lot of people).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, at this kind of price, they'll want to fill the train if possible with people travelling the full length of the journey - it won't work if it becomes a short hop stopping service. So I don't expect it to call at every station en route (and if it did, the end-to-end journey time would probably be too long to attract a lot of people).

It's not a dedicated train, it's an extension of half the Clitheroes, no?

 

[Jack Hay]

Not an extension of half the Clitheroes but an extension of some of the Rochdale-Blackburn terminators, we were led to believe.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Would a North Workington type station the length of Beauly station be built at Chatburn and Gisburn to test the water if the line is going to be used daily all year round? Any extra passengers would help the balance sheet for the line.

Gisburn at least would be worth doing I'm sure - the other closed stations far less so.

With the popularity of the Hope Valley services, at the right price this could be a very popular walker's destination from Manchester - even more so with a two-hourly service than the infrequent DalesRail. Horton and Ribblehead are I'd think the two most popular walkers' destinations, and obviously there's the option of a day out in Settle too - I think this could potentially do quite well, at least on a Saturday.

Indeed!

I think you need stock with selective door opening for that (Beauly type of short platform) and most Northern stock hasn't got it. Certainly not the 156s which are likely to be used.

Local door operation is what you'd do.

Not an extension of half the Clitheroes but an extension of some of the Rochdale-Blackburn terminators, we were led to believe.

That's better than extending the current Clitheroes as it improves the service on the branch as a whole.

 

[Jack Hay]

That's better than extending the current Clitheroes as it improves the service on the branch as a whole.

It is better but Northern did not say the extra trains would call at every station. It isn't supposed to be a 2tph to the branch stations service. Northern did not say but I guess it might call at Clitheroe only.

 

[InkyScrolls]

It is better but Northern did not say the extra trains would call at every station. It isn't supposed to be a 2tph to the branch stations service. Northern did not say but I guess it might call at Clitheroe only.

A shame if so but entirely understandable.

 

[Ant158]

A shame if so but entirely understandable.

It would seem counter productive to not stop at the branch stations, especially during peak times, as it gives commuters more options. The Blackburns still call at All stations between Blackburn and Bolton, so leaving out the ribble valley stations would be a shame.

Unless it is the only way to get the train to Ribblehead and back to form the return Blackburn service.

 

[td97]

Rochdale to Blackburn is their core work which they seem quite able to cover so all in all keeping things simple with one depot it will be a success!

Consistently Northern's most reliable North West route.

The Blackburns still call at All stations between Blackburn and Bolton, so leaving out the ribble valley stations would be a shame.

Not Entwistle.

 

[30907]

It would seem counter productive to not stop at the branch stations, especially during peak times, as it gives commuters more options. The Blackburns still call at All stations between Blackburn and Bolton, so leaving out the ribble valley stations would be a shame.

Unless it is the only way to get the train to Ribblehead and back to form the return Blackburn service.

An all-stations time BBN-RHD would be around 70min (going by the 2020 Dalesrails) plus time to shunt (say 15min) - I think you'd be pushing it to get a 2-hourly service with one unit even calling CLH only, but "some of the Blackburn terminators" which is what Jack Hey has said would work. Bear in mind that it has to fit with the main service too!

 

[InkyScrolls]

An all-stations time BBN-RHD would be around 70min (going by the 2020 Dalesrails) plus time to shunt (say 15min) - I think you'd be pushing it to get a 2-hourly service with one unit even calling CLH only, but "some of the Blackburn terminators" which is what Jack Hey has said would work. Bear in mind that it has to fit with the main service too!

If you were to keep timings reasonably tight but doable, and call at Blackburn (0), Clitheroe (16), Hellifield (21), Settle (8), Horton (7) and Ribblehead (8) only, you'd be looking at end to end timings of around 60 mins - Dalesrail had the additional Ribble Valley stops and very generous timings. You could just about do a round trip and fit in with the current timings, including 'running round' at Blea Moor. As an example:

• [2B81] From Rochdale
• Blackburn d. 0903
• Clitheroe d. 0919
• Hellifield d. 0940
• Settle d. 0948
• Horton d. 0955
• Ribblehead a. 1003

• [5J20] ECS
• Ribblehead d. 1007
• Blea Moor a. 1010
• Blea Moor d. 1013
• Ribblehead a. 1016

• [2J20] To Rochdale
• Ribblehead d. 1018
• Horton d. 1025*
• Settle d. 1032*
• Hellifield d. 1040
• Clitheroe d. 1101
• Blackburn d. 1117

* Tighter timings are possible in this direction due to the gradient

 

[deltic08]

You can use local door which is how it's done in Scotland.

I thought so that is why I raised it. Short platforms to save money as it would only be an experiment initially.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At the moment a day return from Manchester to Ribblehead, route via Leeds, is just under £40 (no railcard), and that is too high for the leisure market they're trying to capture.

Is there currently such a ticket? Can see a £39.80 (route "Any Permitted") Anytime Return. Is that the one you're referring to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there currently such a ticket? Can see a £39.80 (route "Any Permitted") Anytime Return. Is that the one you're referring to?

It's the only return fare so they must be.

Agree it's too expensive. A "route Clitheroe" ticket needs to be added priced around £20-25.

The "Anytime Short Return" to Clitheroe from Manchester is just under £20 so this wouldn't undercut anything.

 

[wilbers]

The £39.80 ticket looks to be valid by Leeds, Bradford, or Lancaster.

 

[30907]

If you were to keep timings reasonably tight but doable, and call at Blackburn (0), Clitheroe (16), Hellifield (21), Settle (8), Horton (7) and Ribblehead (8) only, you'd be looking at end to end timings of around 60 mins - Dalesrail had the additional Ribble Valley stops and very generous timings. You could just about do a round trip and fit in with the current timings, including 'running round' at Blea Moor. As an example:

• [2B81] From Rochdale
• Blackburn d. 0903
• Clitheroe d. 0919
• Hellifield d. 0940
• Settle d. 0948
• Horton d. 0955
• Ribblehead a. 1003
• [5J20] ECS
• Ribblehead d. 1007
• Blea Moor a. 1010
• Blea Moor d. 1013
• Ribblehead a. 1016
• [2J20] To Rochdale
• Ribblehead d. 1018
• Horton d. 1025*
• Settle d. 1032*
• Hellifield d. 1040
• Clitheroe d. 1101
• Blackburn d. 1117

* Tighter timings are possible in this direction due to the gradient

Fair enough - presumably with a crew change somewhere on the circuit? - but unfortunately, xx40 through Hellifield consistently clashes with Skipton-bound Northern trains, so I'm guessing the actual pattern won't be that neat.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Fair enough - presumably with a crew change somewhere on the circuit?

(I would presume at Blackburn.)

But unfortunately, xx40 through Hellifield consistently clashes with Skipton-bound Northern trains, so I'm guessing the actual pattern won't be that neat.

Haha, so it does! Not sure how I missed that given I know the timetable off by heart...

 

[Jack Hay]

It would seem counter productive to not stop at the branch stations, especially during peak times, as it gives commuters more options. The Blackburns still call at All stations between Blackburn and Bolton, so leaving out the ribble valley stations would be a shame.

Unless it is the only way to get the train to Ribblehead and back to form the return Blackburn service.

I was at the stakeholders meeting last week and unless I misunderstood, it isn't going to operate in peak hours, at least not initially. It's a Saturday service to start with, timed for the leisure market to Settle, Horton, and Ribblehead. Northern is trying to grow the leisure market. If it succeeds, as I'm sure we all hope it does, I expect they'll expand it. The estimated journey times that others have posted and the fares comments look sensible to me. Yes, I was referring to the £39.80 MAN-RHD return fare via today's indirect route and I understood Northern to say they would introduce a new fare nearer to £20 for the direct service. My personal view - Northern are showing initiative here. I don't work for them but I want to support this.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I was at the stakeholders meeting last week and unless I misunderstood, it isn't going to operate in peak hours, at least not initially. It's a Saturday service to start with, timed for the leisure market to Settle, Horton, and Ribblehead. Northern is trying to grow the leisure market. If it succeeds, as I'm sure we all hope it does, I expect they'll expand it. The estimated journey times that others have posted and the fares comments look sensible to me. Yes, I was referring to the £39.80 MAN-RHD return fare via today's indirect route and I understood Northern to say they would introduce a new fare nearer to £20 for the direct service. My personal view - Northern are showing initiative here. I don't work for them but I want to support this.

It seems we have some genuinely good news then! I shall look forward to the services being introduced, in whatever form they take.

 

[30907]

(I would presume at Blackburn.)

Haha, so it does! Not sure how I missed that given I know the timetable off by heart...

Well I did wonder....

 

[scrapy]

Should hopefully also pick up some business in the opposite direction e.g for Settle to Manchester shopping/leisure trips on a Saturday which weren't easily doable by train previously. Northern do tend to struggle for crews though on a Saturday especially in the latter half of the year.

 

[SprinterMan]

The simplest solution has already been suggested on this thread:

Forget about all the frilly nonsense and concentrate on running the core service reliably.

 

[nw1]

DalesRail is (was) Blackpool to Carlisle, so it's at least not quite that.

I'd say Manchester to Ribblehead would make more sense than the old DalesRail. Manchester is much bigger than anywhere on the route from Blackpool.

I do wonder why no-one thought of a leisure service at the weekend from Manchester years ago (as in, the late 90s or 00s let's say, after Clitheroe re-opened but when the railway didn't have the problems it has today). It seems to me an obvious gap and the early years of privatisation were full of these kinds of experimental once-a-day services.

 

[30907]

I'd say Manchester to Ribblehead would make more sense than the old DalesRail. Manchester is much bigger than anywhere on the route from Blackpool.

Agreed.

I do wonder why no-one thought of a leisure service at the weekend from Manchester years ago (as in, the late 90s or 00s let's say, after Clitheroe re-opened but when the railway didn't have the problems it has today). It seems to me an obvious gap and the early years of privatisation were full of these kinds of experimental once-a-day services.

I suspect because Dalesrail already existed

 

[sandpiper]

The reason that the Dalesrail became so unreliable, (and thus lost passenger numbers to the point that there was often only a handful of passengers on each train), was down to ASLEF at DEC/DWC level not allowing Blackburn drivers to cross-cover the service when Blackpool were short-staffed. There were many occasions where there were Blackburn train-crew were willing to work a Sunday but the union at council level refused to let Blackburn depot have any more work because they say it was taking work away from other depots. Blackburn can't even cross-cover Blackpool-York trains for the same reason despite - A, Blackburn located almost halfway between Leeds and Blackpool - B, daily cancellations on this route due to lack of staff - C, spare staff sat twiddling their thumbs spare in Blackburn messroom, D multiple booked taxis daily between Blackpool and Blackburn because the union will not let Blackburn sign 195s. . From what I am told by a source is there is a huge sense of frustration at Blackburn that the union is blocking anything that is even considered for Blackburn depot despite the fact that that is exactly what the depot was created for.

 

[Gaz67]

The reason that the Dalesrail became so unreliable, (and thus lost passenger numbers to the point that there was often only a handful of passengers on each train), was down to ASLEF at DEC/DWC level not allowing Blackburn drivers to cross-cover the service when Blackpool were short-staffed. There were many occasions where there were Blackburn train-crew were willing to work a Sunday but the union at council level refused to let Blackburn depot have any more work because they say it was taking work away from other depots. Blackburn can't even cross-cover Blackpool-York trains for the same reason despite - A, Blackburn located almost halfway between Leeds and Blackpool - B, daily cancellations on this route due to lack of staff - C, spare staff sat twiddling their thumbs spare in Blackburn messroom, D multiple booked taxis daily between Blackpool and Blackburn because the union will not let Blackburn sign 195s. . From what I am told by a source is there is a huge sense of frustration at Blackburn that the union is blocking anything that is even considered for Blackburn depot despite the fact that that is exactly what the depot was created for.

This all seems a bit odd, not doubting what your saying by the way, if Blackburn drivers were non unionised then i could understand this stance , but that wont be the case so this is a very bizarre stance. Surely Blackburn aslef members deserve identical representation and oppurtunities as Blackpool aslef members . Not a railway worker myself but am a union member, this harks back to some agreement made in steam days.

 

[Jack Hay]

This all seems a bit odd, not doubting what your saying by the way, if Blackburn drivers were non unionised then i could understand this stance , but that wont be the case so this is a very bizarre stance. Surely Blackburn aslef members deserve identical representation and oppurtunities as Blackpool aslef members . Not a railway worker myself but am a union member, this harks back to some agreement made in steam days.

It also suggests management are failing in their duty to run the business. They're letting the union make the decisions about what runs, outside of any strikes.

 

[Geeves]

It's seemed the case to me for a while that ASLEF at Blackpool have been on an empire building scheme for some time. The rumours are that they are out already road learning Vic to Clitheroe in preparation for this potential new service despite the fact it should be Blackburn work. It's ASLEF at Blackpool that are essentially the reason why hundreds of drivers at other NW depot's lost any routes and traction beyond their own links in the process adding hundreds more cancellations.