Is there any valid reason to why Chester is not electrified (ignoring P7)

[sansyy]

I have lived in Chester for coming up 8 years now and I still do not understand why there is no electrification (specifically OHLE) at all. A massive transport hub for north wales and the north of england and not a single electrified line!!! Frustrating being from South London being used to electric trains and now up here reliant on DMUs that are loud, bouncy and 30 years old!

The new 197s and the newish 195s are nice but whenever commuting far its not always so nice to sit on a 153 2-car thrown on to Birmingham New Street by Transport for Wales making the journey more viable by sitting in the gangways the entire time.

It just makes no sense to me considering Runcorn, Warrington, Crewe, Liverpool and most stations origin from Chester are electrified minus the North Wales Coast Line being unelectrified.

 

[enginedin]

It's just never made it to the top of the list... It is a "Tier 2 Priority" though:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales_Main_Line#:~:text=In 2023, the Prime Minister,Speed 2 north of Birmingham.

 

[Ianigsy]

Chester probably makes more sense as the first stage in doing North Wales than on its own, as you would only be able to replace the Crewe shuttle and the Avanti terminators. Once that’s done you can look at doing an infill to Warrington and the Halton curve.

 

[Envoy]

I have lived in Chester for coming up 8 years now and I still do not understand why there is no electrification (specifically OHLE) at all. A massive transport hub for north wales and the north of england and not a single electrified line!!! Frustrating being from South London being used to electric trains and now up here reliant on DMUs that are loud, bouncy and 30 years old!

The new 197s and the newish 195s are nice but whenever commuting far its not always so nice to sit on a 153 2-car thrown on to Birmingham New Street by Transport for Wales making the journey more viable by sitting in the gangways the entire time.

It just makes no sense to me considering Runcorn, Warrington, Crewe, Liverpool and most stations origin from Chester are electrified minus the North Wales Coast Line being unelectrified.

This is why the rest of the country has been moaning about not getting a fair share of rail investment v areas nearer to London. No doubt that London and the SE need an excellent public transport system but much of the rest of the country has been left behind. Note that the a recent press release said that HS2 northern leg money was now being used to fill potholes in London and that the only section that will now be built is the southern one.

Transport for Wales have been changing to a new fleet and took their best trains (Class 175) off lease when the Chester depot became the base for maintaining the 197’s.

 

[zwk500]

I have lived in Chester for coming up 8 years now and I still do not understand why there is no electrification (specifically OHLE) at all. A massive transport hub for north wales and the north of england and not a single electrified line!!! Frustrating being from South London being used to electric trains and now up here reliant on DMUs that are loud, bouncy and 30 years old!

It just makes no sense to me considering Runcorn, Warrington, Crewe, Liverpool and most stations origin from Chester are electrified minus the North Wales Coast Line being unelectrified.

The only lines electrified in the area are those from London to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow. Chester is a big local interchange but isn't on the same scale as Manchester or Liverpool. BR could change locos at Crewe and services were running onto lines that were never going to be electrified so needed to be DMUs and thus electrification would have been pointless.
Nowadays priorities have shifted, technologies advanced, and other electrification projects completed or in progress that give fresh impetus to re-examining the possibility of wiring Chester from either Warrington or Crewe. Hence the inclusion of the project in Network North.

 

[The exile]

I know the OP specified OHLE but from the perspective of a resident of Bristol, Nottingham, Sheffield etc it seems odd to exclude a frequent, electrified service just because it happens to be third rail. On that basis, Brighton, Southampton, Canterbury et al have no electrified services!
Unfortunately, electrification to Chester alone would be little more than an expensive political box-ticking exercise. The wires will need to go along the N Wales coast (at least to Llandudno) and probably back up through Runcorn East to make any sense

 

[sansyy]

I know the OP specified OHLE but from the perspective of a resident of Bristol, Nottingham, Sheffield etc it seems odd to exclude a frequent, electrified service just because it happens to be third rail. On that basis, Brighton, Southampton, Canterbury et al have no electrified services!
Unfortunately, electrification to Chester alone would be little more than an expensive political box-ticking exercise. The wires will need to go along the N Wales coast (at least to Llandudno) and probably back up through Runcorn East to make any sense

The only reason I excluded Merseyrail is because it’s an isolated system that doesn’t go past Chester and only serves the Wirral. It’s nice to have but doesn’t really provide any extra connectivity outside of the small inner circle it’s created. OHLE to Crewe and Warrington would be way more important in improving connectivity and reliability in the area.

Chester probably makes more sense as the first stage in doing North Wales than on its own, as you would only be able to replace the Crewe shuttle and the Avanti terminators. Once that’s done you can look at doing an infill to Warrington and the Halton curve.

I do agree but now we’ve got two governments against making change since the Welsh government only care about their southern transport nodes and so does England. I do think a service like Chester-Crewe should be electrified because there are many important services that can run via Crewe and make it a fully electric service

 

[The exile]

I do think a service like Chester-Crewe should be electrified because there are many important services that can run via Crewe and make it a fully electric service

How many services are there of which Crewe - Chester is the only unwired section?
Priorities should be short sections which would help to eliminate diesel running under the wires (either instal wiring or order bi-modes)

 

[steeevooo]

I recall previous discussion on this topic mentioning that it is potentially rather challenging/difficult to put OHLE up in the tunnels near Chester (Christleton Tunnel I believe, though could be wrong), which could also be part of a reason why the area hasn't been electrified. Of course, Avanti will one day be running bi-modes to Chester and North Wales to eliminate diesel running under the wires that do exist.

 

[sansyy]

I recall previous discussion on this topic mentioning that it is potentially rather challenging/difficult to put OHLE up in the tunnels near Chester (Christleton Tunnel I believe, though could be wrong), which could also be part of a reason why the area hasn't been electrified. Of course, Avanti will one day be running bi-modes to Chester and North Wales to eliminate diesel running under the wires that do exist.

Some of the tunnels that they line does run on are quite low and won’t meet clearance and I think they’re also protected under being demolished but it’s not stopped the rails before! As nice and cool a bridge is I think OHLE is much more important than a Victorian bridge.

How many services are there of which Crewe - Chester is the only unwired section?
Priorities should be short sections which would help to eliminate diesel running under the wires (either instal wiring or order bi-modes)

I think it’s mostly anything after Chester and for services that terminate at Chester it’s purely that section of track between Crewe and Chester. I know there’s a Birmingham service that goes via Crewe that I think it’s unwired on the Chester leg and another small place but don’t quote me on that!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure I heard Ricki Sunak promise £1 billion of HS2 money to electrify the North Wales main line.
Any wiring scheme would need to start at Crewe and Warrington, and include the Halton curve to Liverpool.
How far west of Chester would get wires is problematic.
The Welsh government is lukewarm, because if Westminster gave it £1 billion for electrification, it would spend it in South Wales.
Its operational model is based on Holyhead-Chester/Manchester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham/Cardiff being DMU-worked (with a new fleet based at Chester).
But whether any wiring will happen is anyone's guess.
The Ireland connection at Holyhead is irrelevant these days with minimal rail-based traffic.
A new nuclear power station at Wylfa would help the business case.

Going back a bit, BR (LM Region) electrified Euston-Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool in the 1960s.
It cost a fortune, and the project overrun deprived many other LM areas of much-needed investment - Chester being one example, East Lancs another.
It has never worked its way up to the top of an electrification priority list (other than Merseyrail from Liverpool).
But recent electrification in the region (Manchester-Warrington-Acton Grange, the expensive bit of Manchester-Chester) helps the case.
Crewe-Chester wiring is troubled by the many round-arch bridges on the route, built by George Stephenson.
It's possible that section will be resignalled along with the rest of the Crewe area, which is another necessary precursor to wiring.
Chester station may well also be remodelled (extra platform and parallel layouts) to deal with capacity problems.
The local politicians (Flintshire, Cheshire West, Wirral etc) who work as a cross-border planning group, may be able to influence investment.

 

[sansyy]

I'm sure I heard Ricki Sunak promise £1 billion of HS2 money to electrify the North Wales main line.
Any wiring scheme would need to start at Crewe and Warrington, and include the Halton curve to Liverpool.
How far west of Chester would get wires is problematic.
The Welsh government is lukewarm, because if Westminster gave it £1 billion for electrification, it would spend it in South Wales.
Its operational model is based on Holyhead-Chester/Manchester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham/Cardiff being DMU-worked (with a new fleet based at Chester).
But whether any wiring will happen is anyone's guess.
The Ireland connection at Holyhead is irrelevant these days with minimal rail-based traffic.
A new nuclear power station at Wylfa would help the business case.

Going back a bit, BR (LM Region) electrified Euston-Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool in the 1960s.
It cost a fortune, and the project overrun deprived many other LM areas of much-needed investment - Chester being one example, East Lancs another.
It has never worked its way up to the top of an electrification priority list (other than Merseyrail from Liverpool).
But recent electrification in the region (Manchester-Warrington-Acton Grange, the expensive bit of Manchester-Chester) helps the case.
Crewe-Chester wiring is troubled by the many round-arch bridges on the route, built by George Stephenson.
It's possible that section will be resignalled along with the rest of the Crewe area, which is another necessary precursor to wiring.
Chester station may well also be remodelled (extra platform and parallel layouts) to deal with capacity problems.
The local politicians (Flintshire, Cheshire West, Wirral etc) who work as a cross-border planning group, may be able to influence investment.

I don’t see no reason to why they can’t electrify up north and focus on Crewe to try and resolve those issues (re signalling of east junction would help massive with congestion) and then use the DMUs for all routes going south and west until north wales gets any sort of investment. I understand money is a big problem but as stated money should be allocated by two governments now to get started on these projects and it’s pure ignorance by them to why this is still a current problem.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don’t see no reason to why they can’t electrify up north and focus on Crewe to try and resolve those issues (re signalling of east junction would help massive with congestion) and then use the DMUs for all routes going south and west until north wales gets any sort of investment. I understand money is a big problem but as stated money should be allocated by two governments now to get started on these projects and it’s pure ignorance by them to why this is still a current problem.

Am I missing something? How does splitting currently through services, e.g. Manchester or Crewe <-> North Wales, and forcing many passengers to change trains DMU <-> EMU "improve connectivity"?

 

[sansyy]

Am I missing something? How does splitting currently through services, e.g. Manchester or Crewe <-> North Wales, and forcing many passengers to change trains DMU <-> EMU "improve connectivity"?

Crewe to north wales should become bi-mode soon with the new IETs and Manchester to north wales could still be a DMU service but services like the Northern Connect and Liverpool via Halton Curve could become purely EMU with the Crewe shuttle service being EMU too. Even though this is only a third of the services I still think it’ll make a massive difference and also encourage electrification around the area too instead of just being an idea floating around.

 

[The exile]

Ironically - if we ignore any infrastructure issues, the most logical candidate for the wires to reach Chester is probably from Stockport via Altrincham. Self contained, relatively frequent service (Could almost certainly do with a frequency increase) with frequent stops. Once that (or any other) has borne the cost of electrifying the station and any additional electrical feeds required, then (again ignoring any infrastructure issues about which I know nothing) filling in the gap from Crewe would start to make more sense.

 

[Dr Day]

Going back to original question, the simple answer is the ratio between the benefits (including social and environmental) and the costs hasn’t been high enough for it to be a high priority for investment (for governments of any colour).

 

[sjm77]

I recall previous discussion on this topic mentioning that it is potentially rather challenging/difficult to put OHLE up in the tunnels near Chester (Christleton Tunnel I believe, though could be wrong)

I don't believe this would be a show stopper. Over the years I have read on this forum that the Severn Tunnel could not be wired because of water issues, and the route through Chorley could not be electrified because of the Flying Buttress structures.

 

[zwk500]

Crewe to north wales should become bi-mode soon with the new IETs and Manchester to north wales could still be a DMU service but services like the Northern Connect and Liverpool via Halton Curve could become purely EMU with the Crewe shuttle service being EMU too. Even though this is only a third of the services I still think it’ll make a massive difference and also encourage electrification around the area too instead of just being an idea floating around.

The aim is for the Liverpool services to run through Chester eventually (think Llandudno/Cardiff split/join is the short-term plan until a second path into Liverpool can be found). The only services terminating at Chester would be the hourly Mid-Cheshire line service (which will never justify electrification) and the Avanti London-Chesters, with portions dropped from Holyheads.
It's a lot of effort for minimal gain unless you either tear up the strategic plans to write the services around what you wire, or you wire a vast amount in one go.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Northern Leeds-Calder Valley-Victoria-Chester is another curiosity.
With the Calder Valley not being wired it is a DMU service, but if Warrington-Chester was wired it could be a bi-mode route east of Victoria (wired also Bradford-Leeds under TRU, and Vic-Warrington already wired).
On the other hand bi-modes weaken the direct case for new wiring.
Northern has plans to acquire bi-modes, TfW hasn't.

 

[sansyy]

The aim is for the Liverpool services to run through Chester eventually (think Llandudno/Cardiff split/join is the short-term plan until a second path into Liverpool can be found). The only services terminating at Chester would be the hourly Mid-Cheshire line service (which will never justify electrification) and the Avanti London-Chesters, with portions dropped from Holyheads.
It's a lot of effort for minimal gain unless you either tear up the strategic plans to write the services around what you wire, or you wire a vast amount in one go.

Realistically if Chester did ever get wired though it would probably be to Llandudno and I really really doubt it’ll ever go past Llandudno to Holyhead because of how awkward it is and the tunnel there. But I still think Llandudno-Chester needs to be wired regardless of bi-mode and battery trains.

 

[cle]

I could see Bangor - which is the future home of the Manchester service.

Getting to Warrington would cover that, and the Calder to at least Victoria. If they had bimodes. Halton curve adds Liverpool.

Ironically - if we ignore any infrastructure issues, the most logical candidate for the wires to reach Chester is probably from Stockport via Altrincham. Self contained, relatively frequent service (Could almost certainly do with a frequency increase) with frequent stops. Once that (or any other) has borne the cost of electrifying the station and any additional electrical feeds required, then (again ignoring any infrastructure issues about which I know nothing) filling in the gap from Crewe would start to make more sense.

This line is quite rural at the Chester end - even if from Knutsford inbound it could be much higher frequency.

Add some complexity at Navigation Road + tram train Hale ideas and I can’t see it so high on the list.

Crewe definitely makes the most sense.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I have lived in Chester for coming up 8 years now and I still do not understand why there is no electrification (specifically OHLE) at all. A massive transport hub for north wales and the north of england and not a single electrified line!!! Frustrating being from South London being used to electric trains and now up here reliant on DMUs that are loud, bouncy and 30 years old!

Anglesey resident and frequent train user. TfW are renewing the fleet. Yea. With DMUs. boo.

Running wires between Chester and Crewe would be expensive. A large number of bridges would need to be raised or replaced. Wiring Chester to Crewe doesn't make buisness sense unless you run wires all the way to Holyhead. That would be very expensive. Don't forget the lines out here are still on mechanical signaling! The Welsh Goverment are having to make substantial cuts in the budget. If they somehow get more money, they will have higher priorities.

Battery bi- or tri-modes are better value for money for the Chester-Crewe shuttle and London services terminating at Chester. The run is easily in battery range, especially with a top-up at Chester.

I don't think Chester to Holyhead is doable on battery, at least not with current technology.

 

[Llandudno]

Crewe - Holyhead electrification £1billion+

What a waste of money!

Anyway it’s irrelevant as it will never happen!

 

[craigybagel]

I don't believe this would be a show stopper. Over the years I have read on this forum that the Severn Tunnel could not be wired because of water issues, and the route through Chorley could not be electrified because of the Flying Buttress structures.

Christleton is a very low tunnel with a history of flooding. Because of said flooding it actually had the trackbed raised in recent years, so there isn't a lot of room left to play with to put wires or a bar in. You can't extend the headroom either because there's a canal on top.

I'm sure engineering solutions could be found, as they were for the other examples, but they would be expensive. Is it worth it, given that electrifying only to Chester would be a token effort that would make fairly little difference, unless part a much greater scheme that would be ridiculously expensive.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Crewe - Holyhead electrification £1billion+

What a waste of money!

I couldn't agree more. I've looked at the Welsh Government draft budget for next year. We don't have the money. If we did it would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[zwk500]

I couldn't agree more. I've looked at the Welsh Government draft budget for next year. We don't have the money. If we did it would be better spent elsewhere.

Important point to note that the £1bn would be additional to the Welsh Government normal budget and would be (apparently) specifically for NWML electrification or not given at all, as it's (nominally) part of the HS2 reallocation.

 

[Djgr]

I have lived in Chester for coming up 8 years now and I still do not understand why there is no electrification (specifically OHLE) at all. A massive transport hub for north wales and the north of england and not a single electrified line!!! Frustrating being from South London being used to electric trains and now up here reliant on DMUs that are loud, bouncy and 30 years old!

The new 197s and the newish 195s are nice but whenever commuting far its not always so nice to sit on a 153 2-car thrown on to Birmingham New Street by Transport for Wales making the journey more viable by sitting in the gangways the entire time.

It just makes no sense to me considering Runcorn, Warrington, Crewe, Liverpool and most stations origin from Chester are electrified minus the North Wales Coast Line being unelectrified.

Well a key reason are the "governments" that have been in Westminster for the last 12 years or so. Unfortunately the good folks of Chester don't have a great track record here, having voted in various jumper obsessed loons.

 

[sansyy]

Well a key reason are the "governments" that have been in Westminster for the last 12 years or so. Unfortunately the good folks of Chester don't have a great track record here, having voted in various jumper obsessed loons.

It’s really unfortunate our railways fate is determined by old men and women in suits that probably haven’t rode a train since before the Beeching Cuts having no idea the current state of it! If only GBR came into effect and might actually see some electrification go on. If the entire Trans-Siberian railway in Russia can be electrified so can half the lines in the UK.

 

[D365]

Transport for Wales have been changing to a new fleet and took their best trains (Class 175) off lease...

Arguable!

It’s really unfortunate our railways fate is determined by old men and women in suits that probably haven’t rode a train since before the Beeching Cuts having no idea the current state of it! If only GBR came into effect and might actually see some electrification go on.

GBR wouldn't change anything.

 

[td97]

Crewe to Chester alone would make a lot of sense - potentially 3tph would benefit

• 1tph Avanti (Chester terminator could be EMU, Holyhead terminator requires BMU)
• 2tph local EMU stopper, calling at newly reopened Beeston and Tarporley (increased frequency)

20 miles of electrification (Crewe Station and 1 mile towards Chester already wired) is quite short and could be achieved for £65 million if £1m/stkm is at all possible.

However - CLC, Rochdale, Atherton would all equally be deserving of such electrification investment, and would need to be prioritised on a cost/benefits ratio.