Think the transition came long after the end of steam. “Secondmen” were initially required on HSTs as they were booked to run at over 100(?) mph (or was 110 the cut-off?)I was curious when the transition from steam trains (having a group of people in the cab) to solo driving (I assume in diesel and electric trains) happened? Was there a hug backlash among the drivers and unions?
It was originally 100, then 110 was negotiated.Think the transition came long after the end of steam. “Secondmen” were initially required on HSTs as they were booked to run at over 100(?) mph (or was 110 the cut-off?)
It is important to distinguish between loco hauled and multiple unit train operation.I was curious when the transition from steam trains (having a group of people in the cab) to solo driving (I assume in diesel and electric trains) happened? Was there a hug backlash among the drivers and unions?
Not sure about this. I was a Secondman @ Brighton between 1980 & 83, never worked on a steam heated train (we only had 1 turn that had it Brighton -Manchester with a 47) & although a lot of turns had run rounds etc it was never our job., whether in a station or a yard.It is important to distinguish between loco hauled and multiple unit train operation.
The diesel multiple units (DMUs) introduced from the 1950s were usually single manned. Electric multiple units (EMUs) were also single manned, and the drivers were sometimes called motormen, especially on the Southern Region.
For locomotive hauled passenger trains two key factors were how the train was heated and whether shunting staff were available at terminal stations to detach/attach locos. Steam heated trains required a second member of staff on the footplate to operate the boiler. The drive to eliminate steam heat in the early 1980s was primarily about eliminating the need for a second train crew member.
It was originally 100, then 110 was negotiated.
2 drivers for 125mph remained until I believe GNER and GWT separately negotiated with ASLEF very early into their franchises.
The Brighton-Manchester was ETH, it had to be for electric traction after Birmingham.never worked on a steam heated train (we only had 1 turn that had it Brighton -Manchester with a 47)
Just because that was the case at Brighton doesn't mean that it applied everywhere.although a lot of turns had run rounds etc it was never our job., whether in a station or a yard.
You can't tell me Brighton was different to Redhill or Norwood, depots we often were on loan to?The Brighton-Manchester was ETH, it had to be for electric traction after Birmingham.
Just because that was the case at Brighton doesn't mean that it applied everywhere.
And I'm not. I'd expect those to all be the same. But the Southern Region is not everywhere, in particular third rail electrification is a distinctive factor.You can't tell me Brighton was different to Redhill or Norwood, depots we often were on loan to?
I read somewhere (can't recall precisely where) that when the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway introduced its first electric multiple units on the Liverpool - Southport route in 1904, it was canny enough to assign a new employment grade of 'Motorman' for the electric train operators, to avoid any potential malarkey with Trade Unions about needing two men in the cab if one of them was classified as a 'Driver'.Electric multiple units seem to have been single manned right from the start, around 1900. Lines such as the Mersey Railway, which changed over from steam to electric then, must have got rid of almost all firemen. The electrics were really perceived as sort of jumped-up tramcars.
Before that, the MDR/LPTB Acton Town-South Acton shuttle had a one man crew from 1932, when a B stock motor was specially fitted, and emergency telephone wires (normally only in tunnel sections) errected along the line. While the B class car was replaced by a couple of G/Q23 cars (to provide a spare), this method of working lasted until the line closed in 1959.The first single-manned overall trains, no guard either, must have been the Victoria Line Underground in 1967.
I understand that the Fowey branch operated without a Guard (but obviously with a Driver and Fireman) in the 1950s which I find curious.Electric multiple units seem to have been single manned right from the start, around 1900. Lines such as the Mersey Railway, which changed over from steam to electric then, must have got rid of almost all firemen. The electrics were really perceived as sort of jumped-up tramcars.
On the odd 1970s occasions when Met-Cam dmus stood in for the Class 27 push-pull on Glasgow-Edinburgh in the 1970s the rostered fireman did always travel in the cab.
The first single-manned overall trains, no guard either, must have been the Victoria Line Underground in 1967.
I understand that the Fowey branch operated without a Guard (but obviously with a Driver and Fireman) in the 1950s which I find curious.
(Though not, of course, single-manned as such.)
Yes. 50% of time when the railmotor was running in reverse - with the driver sitting in the front coach controlling the train via levers, wires and pulleys - the fireman still needed to be on the footplate down the back stoking the firebox, watching the gauges etc. IIRC many railmotors tended to serve unstaffed halts along the way, where tickets were sold by the guard, so you needed one of those too.In similar vein, does anyone know how many crew were required to operate a steam railmotor? Did these single coach vehicles require a driver, fireman and guard?
Similarly on various SR push-pull worked branches.I understand that the Fowey branch operated without a Guard (but obviously with a Driver and Fireman) in the 1950s which I find curious.
(Though not, of course, single-manned as such.)
In the early 80s most cross-country stock was dual heat and it was not unusual to see a steam-heat 47 on the Brighton.The Brighton-Manchester was ETH, it had to be for electric traction after Birmingham.
Rail Gen Archive has about 40 workings for 1O74 to Brighton in winter 1980-81. Nearly all of the locos are ETH. A steam heat loco to Brighton was unusual.In the early 80s most cross-country stock was dual heat and it was not unusual to see a steam-heat 47 on the Brighton.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_hoare/5653021682
Yes, I'm not saying it was normal, but you wouldn't raise an eyebrow when one turned up. As was the case for most cross-country trains on the Brum - south coast axis at the time.Rail Gen Archive has about 40 workings for 1O74 to Brighton in winter 1980-81. Nearly all of the locos are ETH. A steam heat loco to Brighton was unusual.
Aside from the locos, have there ever been circumstances when a second man has been required to operate a Southern emu?I knew somebody who was a SR second man on Electric loco's. He said he spent most of his time trundling around / stationary in sidings drinking tea / eating toast. Sometimes, a driver would let him drive for a bit.
As he said, bored stupid, so he joined the RAF ( RIP mate )
On the Somerset Levels this is likely to be because of the stability of the track formation.Goodness knows why Bristol to Taunton is not 125mph. It is immaculately straight and level throughout.
Somehow I doubt they avoided controversy with the unions - certainly on the LBSC there were objections when electric trains were introduced that they were interfering with the standard promotion path and being used to lower wages.I read somewhere (can't recall precisely where) that when the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway introduced its first electric multiple units on the Liverpool - Southport route in 1904, it was canny enough to assign a new employment grade of 'Motorman' for the electric train operators, to avoid any potential malarkey with Trade Unions about needing two men in the cab if one of them was classified as a 'Driver'.