How could heritage railways encourage more visitors to arrive by public transport?

[Trainlog]

Not sure I'd agree with "dismal" - Staplehurst has a single bus route, the 5, which runs hourly Maidstone - Hawkhurst, and a half-hourly train service by fortune of being in the right place for a through railway.

12 is probably the better bus from the Southeast mainline to Tenterden - runs half-hourly and quite late into the evening. I said this on another thread but Headcorn really could do with an onboard train reference for the fact Tenterden is down the road and some dot matrix bus boards.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

This thread has reminded me that my railway needs the bus details adding. Now done but awaiting a few other updates before publishing.

 

[James H]

Sadly buses at both Headcorn and Staplehurst were revised last year and no longer serve the station forecourts, making interchange less attractive.

It’s a shame both routes are in the hands of Arriva who are one of the shabbier, less proactive operators.

 

[Trainlog]

Sadly buses at both Headcorn and Staplehurst were revised last year and no longer serve the station forecourts, making interchange less attractive.

It’s a shame both routes are in the hands of Arriva who are one of the shabbier, less proactive operators.

Luckily the Headcorn one is only a few meters away from the station to the main road on one pavement, plus there is a Zebra crossing nearby for safe crossing for the bus towards Headcorn. Staplehurst is a bit more frustrating from experience as you have to cross the forecourt which can get quite busy with cars coming into it on a corner for another pavement to get to the main road bus stop - luckily there is another zebra crossing to get to that bus stop going South, which is good.



As for Arriva, I can agree with you on that one - there are very few good bus routes that Arriva does in West Kent, luckily the 12 isn't too bad.

 

[paul1609]

The recent cuts to the 2 are particularly dismal - this used to be a solid hourly long-distance route early till late.

Tenterden has however benefitted from improved cross-border bus links from East Sussex thanks to that council's ambitious BSIP scheme, with a new Sunday bus service from both Rye and Hastings.

The disparity between bus service expansion in East Sussex and retrenchment in Kent (thanks to the lottery of Government funding) is a complete nonsense.

Unfortunately thats not really true the East Sussex scheme has possibly saved 4 buses a day on the Tenterden to Hastings 29 route but all the late buses across the border have still been withdrawn. I suspect that the average punter will not want to rely on a bus that only runs every two hours thats especially so in an area where you have to book a taxi 2 weeks in advance or you walk.
The Sunday service on 29 and 312 sounds encouraging until you realise that the last return bus to Rye and Hastings are 16.03 and 16.25 respectively. The average passenger on the K &ESR joins the train at Tenterden travels to Bodiam, visits the castle has something to eat and then returns to Tenterden at around 16.30 or 17.30.
The 312 stops outside my house in Wittersham the Sunday service is ok for me to go for a pub lunch in Tenterden or Rye if you plan it. Its probably a good idea for the National Trust and Chapeldown Vineyard at Smallhythe.

 

[GusB]

Unfortunately the reality is that the joined up thinking, the discount for bus passengers etc, etc doesn't actually generate any passengers for rural heritage railways. We've tried it (several times) but the limited marketing effort in our case is better spent on events and attracting coach parties and general advertising. I don't really have any contact with the Scottish Railways but our experience is common to all the "Southern Six" railways.

Why are you so dismissive?

You focussed on my suggestion of some sort of ticketing promotion and said that it doesn't work. That's fine, and I'm happy to accept it if this is actually the case. However, each heritage railway will have its own unique circumstances and what works for one (or doesn't), won't necessarily apply to another.

Leaving aside ticket promotions, one easy win is for heritage railways to ensure that their websites include public transport information where there are suitable connections. People who don't/can't drive are at already at a disadvantage because many visitor attractions have no public transport connections at all, so if yours is one that can be reached easily by bus, why not make this a selling point?

Likewise, bus companies could quite easily use their own publicity materials to promote different attractions along their routes. Most companies sell day tickets, some of which are very good value - it's a no-brainer to provide a list of things to do along the way. Bear in mind that many leisure travellers won't be paying anything on the bus at all, and the current £2 single fare cap (England only) offers opportunities to travel further than was previously possible.

 

[A0wen]

Why are you so dismissive?

You focussed on my suggestion of some sort of ticketing promotion and said that it doesn't work. That's fine, and I'm happy to accept it if this is actually the case. However, each heritage railway will have its own unique circumstances and what works for one (or doesn't), won't necessarily apply to another.

Leaving aside ticket promotions, one easy win is for heritage railways to ensure that their websites include public transport information where there are suitable connections. People who don't/can't drive are at already at a disadvantage because many visitor attractions have no public transport connections at all, so if yours is one that can be reached easily by bus, why not make this a selling point?

Likewise, bus companies could quite easily use their own publicity materials to promote different attractions along their routes. Most companies sell day tickets, some of which are very good value - it's a no-brainer to provide a list of things to do along the way. Bear in mind that many leisure travellers won't be paying anything on the bus at all, and the current £2 single fare cap (England only) offers opportunities to travel further than was previously possible.

Bit in bold - because, I suspect, there is a cost to including such information and if the information is printed then it's out of date the moment something changes which is beyond the heritage railway's control yet such customers will complain at the railway about "poor information". Even maintaining a website incurs a cost in terms of time and somebody available to do it and also ensure the information is up to date.

And, as explained, it's for a tiny, tiny proportion of visitors. Being accessible or inclusive doesn't mean covering every possible option.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Bit in bold - because, I suspect, there is a cost to including such information and if the information is printed then it's out of date the moment something changes which is beyond the heritage railway's control yet such customers will complain at the railway about "poor information". Even maintaining a website incurs a cost in terms of time and somebody available to do it and also ensure the information is up to date.

And, as explained, it's for a tiny, tiny proportion of visitors. Being accessible or inclusive doesn't mean covering every possible option.

Yes it does take time to update your website but any organisation worth its salt should be doing that regularly, fortunately for me our bus service (2 hourly) hasn't changed for many years, although it is only since reading this thread that I thought to add details to our website.

 

[GusB]

Bit in bold - because, I suspect, there is a cost to including such information and if the information is printed then it's out of date the moment something changes which is beyond the heritage railway's control yet such customers will complain at the railway about "poor information". Even maintaining a website incurs a cost in terms of time and somebody available to do it and also ensure the information is up to date.

And, as explained, it's for a tiny, tiny proportion of visitors. Being accessible or inclusive doesn't mean covering every possible option.

Timetable leaflets tend to have dates indicating when they're in operation. There's nothing wrong with the railway adding something along the lines of "check acmebus.com for latest timetable information."

The cost is negligible if the various publications are being updated on a regular basis, which they should be anyway. With the shift to online information, there's zero excuse for not having your online presence up to date.

 

[A0wen]

Timetable leaflets tend to have dates indicating when they're in operation. There's nothing wrong with the railway adding something along the lines of "check acmebus.com for latest timetable information."

The cost is negligible if the various publications are being updated on a regular basis, which they should be anyway. With the shift to online information, there's zero excuse for not having your online presence up to date.

TBH the best thing is just to put the Traveline link on the leaflets - the problem is if you put 'bus service 'x'' on the leaflet for March and 6 weeks later that route gets changed or withdrawn then the leaflet is out of date for the rest of the season.

 

[Krokodil]

because, I suspect, there is a cost to including such information

Peanuts. It's not difficult to include a note describing the location of the nearest bus stop and a reference either to the operator or to Traveline.

 

[Robin Procter]

Perhaps a carrot should be attached to the stick for encouraging those to travel by public transport - a discount for showing a valid ticket upon the booking office, for instance?

.... Really? Even a discount of as much as 50% would very far from compensate for the extra time and inconvenience involved in visitors arriving by public transport. And that assumes that a heritage line can even be practically accessed by public transport which can take hours and consequently shorten a visit to the extent of making it unviable!

Also, any entry or heritage train travel ticket discount the heritage railway gives will reduce the income which they all badly need - Just check the price of coal. And if someone is a short-sighted woke, they should consider the carbon footprint and cost of coal importation.

In terms of travel time, inconvenience and even cost, public transport in most cases for either a single person or a family is a bad joke!

 

[Krokodil]

Really? Even a discount of as much as 50% would very far from compensate for the extra time and inconvenience involved in visitors arriving by public transport.

It's not about compensating people for the whole cost of using public transport. You only need to publicise a small incentive to nudge people towards it: £2 will do. The Talyllyn for example offers 20% off if you show a bus/train ticket. This can benefit the heritage railway if (for example) parking is in short supply.

I've used public transport to get to many heritage railways around the UK (FfWHR, Talyllyn, VoR, WLLR, ELR, R&ER, Strathspey etc.). It wasn't an inconvenience (though the walk across Welshpool is a bit of a trek), it was part of the day. Driving with screaming kids in the back? Now that would be a chore.

 

[renegademaster]

It's not about compensating people for the whole cost of using public transport. You only need to publicise a small incentive to nudge people towards it: £2 will do. The Talyllyn for example offers 20% off if you show a bus/train ticket. This can benefit the heritage railway if (for example) parking is in short supply.

I've used public transport to get to many heritage railways around the UK (FfWHR, Talyllyn, VoR, WLLR, ELR, R&ER, Strathspey etc.). It wasn't an inconvenience (though the walk across Welshpool is a bit of a trek), it was part of the day. Driving with screaming kids in the back? Now that would be a chore.

Taking children 2 hours each way on public transport would be just as much as a chore

 

[Krokodil]

Taking children 2 hours each way on public transport would be just as much as a chore

Not really, you can interact with them and entertain them, rather than having to concentrate on the road ahead. On trains there's a readily accessible toilet too, unlike "I need a wee!" as soon as you join the motorway.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Not really, you can interact with them and entertain them, rather than having to concentrate on the road ahead. On trains there's a readily accessible toilet too, unlike "I need a wee!" as soon as you join the motorway.

Continuously telling people what they think and experience is wrong doesn’t win you or or your cause any favours

 

[Krokodil]

Continuously telling people what they think and experience is wrong doesn’t win you or or your cause any favours

Please quote the post where I said "your experience is wrong" (or some variation thereof).

 

[VauxhallandI]

Not really, you can interact with them and entertain them, rather than having to concentrate on the road ahead. On trains there's a readily accessible toilet too, unlike "I need a wee!" as soon as you join the motorway.

Well your previous post.

 

[Krokodil]

Well your previous post.

I fail to see the words "your experience is wrong" (or anything even vaguely similar) in that post. It's not really any different to the post it replies to (though I did include some explanation rather than an unqualified statement).

 

[VauxhallandI]

I fail to see the words "your experience is wrong" (or anything even vaguely similar) in that post. It's not really any different to the post it replies to (though I did include some explanation rather than an unqualified statement).

There is an underling theme, it’s a common trait amongst a certain part of society. Let’s leave it at that.

 

[Krokodil]

I must confess that I do find it very annoying when people say:

"X is too difficult"
Have you ever actually tried it?
"No"
So how would you know?

I mean, I recognise that sometimes it is impractical. I want to visit a US steam railroad and there is one bus per day to the town it starts from, departing from a town that has one Amtrak train per day. Naturally it's not integrated so depending upon direction you're going to have either a two hour wait (which you might consider pretty tight when you think about Amtrak's punctuality record) or a twenty-two hour wait between modes. So I'll end up hiring a car.

Most of the UK isn't like that though. Most of the major heritage railways have some sort of interchange with a National Rail station. Of those that don't, many are well served by buses or trams. The journey there is often part of the experience, travelling along the Esk Valley, Cambrian or the Dawlish sea wall is always a pleasure.

 

[paul1609]

I must confess that I do find it very annoying when people say:

"X is too difficult"
Have you ever actually tried it?
"No"
So how would you know?

I mean, I recognise that sometimes it is impractical. I want to visit a US steam railroad and there is one bus per day to the town it starts from, departing from a town that has one Amtrak train per day. Naturally it's not integrated so depending upon direction you're going to have either a two hour wait (which you might consider pretty tight when you think about Amtrak's punctuality record) or a twenty-two hour wait between modes. So I'll end up hiring a car.

Most of the UK isn't like that though. Most of the major heritage railways have some sort of interchange with a National Rail station. Of those that don't, many are well served by buses or trams. The journey there is often part of the experience, travelling along the Esk Valley, Cambrian or the Dawlish sea wall is always a pleasure.

The problem is that even when the answer to your question "Have you actually tried it" is "Yes" and the poster details what the results were you cant accept that the people who have tried it (who are mostly volunteers) then think that their time could be more productively spent on other issues. You seeem to think that those volunteers should then relentlessly pursue your particular hobbyhorse even though it makes little or no contribution to the heritage railway.
Of course we dont know how many hours a week you spend volunteering on your local heritage railway to further their connections with public transport.

 

[Krokodil]

The problem is that even when the answer to your question "Have you actually tried it" is "Yes" and the poster details what the results were you cant accept that the people who have tried it (who are mostly volunteers) then think that their time could be more productively spent on other issues.

When writing that I actually had in mind an individual visitor (such as some posters above) rather than the point of view of the attraction. Many people dismiss out of hand the idea of going somewhere by public transport or active travel, with the reasons given often based on assumptions rather than reality. Simple things like having a "how to get here" page help people to consider all options.

I've had to deal with people who offer lifts (which is a kind thing to do) and won't take 'no thank you' for an answer (if I say 'no', please respect that and stop pestering me, I'm perfectly capable and independent), they just refuse to believe that it's easy enough to walk to a local shop and walk back with the goods. It's a bit like dealing with a certain brand of American who keeps asking "how do you protect yourself?" and won't accept that in some parts of the world it's perfectly possible to safely walk down the street without needing a 9mm tucked under your jacket.

You seeem to think that those volunteers should then relentlessly pursue your particular hobbyhorse

Where have I said that?

even though it makes little or no contribution to the heritage railway.

That remains to be seen. The more difficult an attraction appears to be to get to the more likely I am to vote with my feet and go elsewhere. I won't be alone in that, though at least my difficulty threshold will be higher than most members of the public and I'm quite good at independently planning without the need to refer to the website.

Of course we dont know how many hours a week you spend volunteering on your local heritage railway to further their connections with public transport.

Back when I lived in a different part of the UK I wrote a diesel gala timetable (which was reused for several years) anchored around the National Rail services at that railway's interchange (obviously that wasn't my sole contribution to the running of said railway, I had operational roles as well as several years editing their magazine).

In more recent years I've been involved with a part of Didcot Railway Centre - who naturally (given their location) list rail directions first in the "How to get here" list, but also follow this up with bus options which is a less obvious move (so well done the GWS) before finally listing directions by car - it's really not that difficult to do. Nearer to my current home, the Ffestiniog used to be very good for accessibility by public transport, with integrated timetabling, but since the pandemic this has declined steeply, I can't find any form of "how to get here" on their current website. They still have through ticketing with National Rail but there's next to no promotion of it.

 

[JGurney]

This set me thinking, along the lines of other 'list where you have been' threads, of which heritage, miniature, etc, railways I have visited and how I got there.

Ravenglass & Eskdale
- car (as child), rail, walk

Lakeside & Haverthwaite
- boat, bus

Saltburn Miniature
- bus

Ruswarp Miniature
- bus

North Yorks Moors Rly
- bus, walk

North Bay Rly (Scarborough)
- bus

Severn Valley Rly
- bicycle, bus

Welshpool & Llanfair
- coach from railtour

Welsh Highland
- bus, walk, rail

Llanberis Lake Rly
- walk

Snowdon Mtn. Rly
- walk

Ffestiniog
- rail

Talyllyn
- car (as child)

Vale of Rheidol
- rail

North Norfolk
- bicycle, bus

Bure Valley
- bicycle

Mid Norfolk
- minibus (as driver)

Wells & Walsingham
- bus

Cholsey & Wallingford
- bicycle, rail, walk

Ruislip Lido Rly
- bus

Forest of Dean Rly
- walk

Bristol Harbour Rly
- walk

Leighton Buzzard Light Rly
- car (as driver), walk

Kent & E Sussex
- bus

Bluebell
- bicycle, coach tour

Volks Rly
- walk

Littlehampton Miniature
- bicycle, car (as child)

Isle of Wight Steam
- rail

Great Cockrow Rly
- bicycle, car (as child), car (as driver)

Hampton & Kempton
- bicycle, bus, car (as adult passenger)

Thames Ditton Miniature
- car (as child), bicycle

Tilford Barns Rly
- walk

Brockham Quarry Rly
- bicycle, minibus (passenger)

Amberly Museum Rly
- bicycle, rail

Mid Hants Rly
- bicycle, bus, rail

Poole Park Miniature
- car (as child), coach tour

Swanage Rly
- bicycle, bus, car (as driver), rail, railtour, walk

East Somerset
- railtour

Seaton Tramway
- bicycle

West Somerset Rly
- railtour

South Devon Rly
- bus, walk

Bodmin & Wenford
- bicycle, rail

Giant's Causeway & Bushmills
- bus, walk

 

[Train Maniac]

The problem is that even when the answer to your question "Have you actually tried it" is "Yes" and the poster details what the results were you cant accept that the people who have tried it (who are mostly volunteers) then think that their time could be more productively spent on other issues. You seeem to think that those volunteers should then relentlessly pursue your particular hobbyhorse even though it makes little or no contribution to the heritage railway.
Of course we dont know how many hours a week you spend volunteering on your local heritage railway to further their connections with public transport.

Might of missed it in the last 9 pages of discussion, but i have a question

If public transport passengers arent worth the hassle, why are you going to such great lengths to extend back to Robertsbridge? Its not like there is much else to do there, other than the mainline connection?

 

[gswindale]

Not really, you can interact with them and entertain them, rather than having to concentrate on the road ahead. On trains there's a readily accessible toilet too, unlike "I need a wee!" as soon as you join the motorway.

Nope!

With our 4 year old, it is a much more pleasurable experience having him in the secure seating that we have in the car than being on a bus. It also means we can get to our destination quicker (for instance our trip tomorrow to our nearest zoo is 1 hour in the car or 3.25 hours using public transport). It might just be us, but we very rarely get "I need a wee" whilst driving anywhere, and in fact he can quite happily do a 3 hour journey without a toilet stop, but then again if you were to offer him a trai toilet, he'd refuse and just hold it in until we were somewhere more pleasant.

 

[Krokodil]

It might just be us, but we very rarely get "I need a wee" whilst driving anywhere

You're lucky. My cousin and her husband took their kids on holiday to Cornwall. At some point on the journey (can't remember if out or back) "I need a wee" was the cry. So they pulled off onto a side road, potty out, pants down... "only joking!"

My cousin was not impressed, though her husband thought it hilarious.

Another cousin's daughter absolutely loves train travel, though that's probably her great-uncle's influence. I do see plenty of toddlers at work travelling by train who are enjoying the experience.

for instance our trip tomorrow to our nearest zoo is 1 hour in the car or 3.25 hours using public transport

Locally my nearest zoo no longer runs a free shuttle minibus to/from the station which is a shame, though I'd consider the distance walkable for most - they do still provide bus and train options on their "find us" page but recommend using a taxi for the last leg.

Looking for larger examples, Chester Zoo's "How to get here" page starts by giving road directions, you have to scroll down to see links to other options (including more detailed information for driving). They do offer a 15% discount for cyclists. Their rail travel page has links to public transport directions on Google Maps from the two closest stations. It's a shame that they don't specifically mention that they are directly served by the Nos.1 and X1 buses between Chester and Liverpool. Google Maps gives a driving time of 1 hour from where I live and 2 hours by public transport. This is where mixed modes ought to be shown properly (sometimes Google will offer car/uber-based mixed modes, but it doesn't include cycling in that) and active travel promoted by train operators; it's a lot quicker for me to cycle to the departure station than it is to walk to the bus stop, catch the bus, get off, walk to the station and wait for the train. Cycling the first leg of the journey would save at least 30 minutes, so a door-door journey of 1hr 30m vs driving time of 1hr isn't so uncompetitive. Kids aren't much of a problem, quite a lot of my toddlerhood was spent wearing a rather fetching yellow helmet riding in a seat mounted on my father's pannier rack - long before anyone had coined the term "active travel". Price-wise, for a family of four it can be done for £40 tomorrow, or there are Advances totalling £30 available next week.

Off-topic but a coherent active travel policy really needs developing by the government and local authorities, it'll help a lot with the problem of the first mile. Other countries have achieved this.

 

[Llanigraham]

From February Lloyds Coaches are starting a G24 service that will link Machynlleth to Tywyn via Corris (Branch Goch Inn), Abergonolyn, and Tywyn. So lining the two railways to the public transport system.

 

[Gwr12345]

Apparently the Keighley and Worth Valley add-on ticket for arriving by train is being discontinued by the steam gala, which I think is a step backwards.

 

[railfan99]

In more recent years I've been involved with a part of Didcot Railway Centre - who naturally (given their location) list rail directions first in the "How to get here" list, but also follow this up with bus options which is a less obvious move (so well done the GWS) before finally listing directions by car - it's really not that difficult to do.

Listing rail (or rail/bus) first, then bus, then any feasible (full journey or part) cycling option(s), and finally by car is the way to go, to try to get car-bound prospective passengers thinking 'can we have a day out by train/bus for a change?'

Researching from overseas, there's no consistency between heritage railways in how they list these 'to/from' options. A few have made it difficult to quickly find comprehensible directions by road.