Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Railperf]

Well I was hoping someone more familiar with the SRT's might have the answer without having to go down that route.

 

[Iskra]

Just seen my first one in Avanti livery, parked at Darlo station currently. Standard class seats look interesting with their winged head rests, hopefully a step forwards in terms of comfort.

 

[800001]

Just seen my first one in Avanti livery, parked at Darlo station currently. Standard class seats look interesting with their winged head rests, hopefully a step forwards in terms of comfort.

Where is Darlo?

And the seats in standard are very similar to the one Lumo use, which have got more positive feedback than LNER/GWR/TPE.

 

[Iskra]

Where is Darlo?

And the seats in standard are very similar to the one Lumo use, which have got more positive feedback than LNER/GWR/TPE.

Darlington.

Looks like it’s following me down the ECML to Donny (Doncaster ), according to Real Time Trains.

 

[AJDesiro]

Just seen my first one in Avanti livery, parked at Darlo station currently. Standard class seats look interesting with their winged head rests, hopefully a step forwards in terms of comfort.

They’re already used on the 390s (with a similar but different variant on the Lumo 803s). The only differences are weight/moisture sensors in the bases, reading lights above the tray table and a different charging setup. Passenger surveys on them have been positive, although this forum seems divided (though this forum will never agree on seats).

 

[800001]

Darlington.

Looks like it’s following me down the ECML to Donny (Doncaster ), according to Real Time Trains.

Thank you.

 

[The Planner]

Well I was hoping someone more familiar with the SRT's might have the answer without having to go down that route.

Not without comparing each SRT for each network link.

 

[Bald Rick]

Where is Darlo?

Darlington

But also, more relevantly to Avanti, Darlaston!

(But I guess Darlingotn is the right answer, for once)

 

[Iskra]

Avanti at Doncaster

 

[craigybagel]

So does anyone know what the net difference in SRT's are between the previous 221 timings and 80x diesel?

Given the North Wales coast line is both relatively flat and limited to 90mph max, I would hope the differences in performance won't be all that much?

 

[danbarjon]

Does anyone know if they will use the rear pantographs like LNER do?

 

[800001]

Does anyone know if they will use the rear pantographs like LNER do?

Every test train I’ve seen a picture or video, they are using the front pan.
Only seems to be LNER use rear pan.

 

[Railperf]

Not without comparing each SRT for each network link.

Checking current SRT's with those proposed for July - are identical. So no change from June - that's using the 0548 from Holyhead as a guide on RTT.
What's interesting about the North Wales main line is that we don't have many sections where 221's have recorded fastest section times.

In fact on quite a few occasions the HST actual recorded timings were better albeit in days where TPWS grids were not around and no defensive driving rules.
From Crewe southbound the RPS archive contains the following fastest recorded times combined (start to stop) for Crewe Stafford and Stafford Euston:

HST best 1:45:59, Class 221 1:33:36, Electric Loco (110mph) 1:44:00, Class 390 1:28:44

Current net schedule is 1:34:30 excluding dwell time and less any engineering and performance allowances:

Given the North Wales coast line is both relatively flat and limited to 90mph max, I would hope the differences in performance won't be all that much?

From a standing start to three miles a Class 802 on diesel (all engines running) would be around 21 seconds (edited) slower than a CLass 221 (all engines working) even though - astonishingly - the Class 802 (diesel mode) 0-90mph time is around a minute slower! These are based on real life measured figures!
The 802d loses around 14 seconds accelerating to 75mph. Multiply that by the amount of stops and it is clear the 805's are likely to lose a couple of minutes in North Wales. Of course these represent the best recorded figures and can vary based on railhead conditions, passenger load, engine condition / driver inputs.

 

[Danfilm007]

Every test train I’ve seen a picture or video, they are using the front pan.
Only seems to be LNER use rear pan.

Why is it the IETs use the front pan? I thought the convention was rear pan?

 

[david.stannard]

Thank you Iskra for your reports and photographs of the Class 805 that you saw on test at Darlington and Doncaster -did you record the set number please?

When I observed 807002 on the Crewe Heritage Centre webcam returning from Oxley to Merchant Park it was I believe operating with the rear pantograph raised.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Every test train I’ve seen a picture or video, they are using the front pan.
Only seems to be LNER use rear pan.

In the picture in #1754, the 805 appears to be using the rear panto.
Don't Avanti use the rear one on Pendolinos?

 

[Iskra]

Thank you Iskra for your reports and photographs of the Class 805 that you saw on test at Darlington and Doncaster -did you record the set number please?

When I observed 807002 on the Crewe Heritage Centre webcam returning from Oxley to Merchant Park it was I believe operating with the rear pantograph raised.

Morning, no problem. This was 805001

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the picture in #1754, the 805 appears to be using the rear panto.
Don't Avanti use the rear one on Pendolinos?

Yes, it's so that if the rear one causes minor damage or is itself damaged, e.g. by a piece of plastic on the OHLE, there's the possibility the front one and front section of wire remains undamaged and so can be raised and get the train out of trouble, I believe. The other way round and there's more likely to be damage to the rear one (or section of wires) that would prevent that.

 

[Iskra]

In the picture in #1754, the 805 appears to be using the rear panto.
Don't Avanti use the rear one on Pendolinos?

Just be careful with that photo, the train changed directions in the platform so it may not be conclusive/reliable. The video I posted more recently would perhaps be a more reliable indicator.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes, it's so that if the rear one causes minor damage or is itself damaged, e.g. by a piece of plastic on the OHLE, there's the possibility the front one and front section of wire remains undamaged and so can be raised and get the train out of trouble, I believe. The other way round and there's more likely to be damage to the rear one (or section of wires) that would prevent that.

I thought it was aerodynamics, since having the pointier bit facing the wind will reduce air resistance
Although that makes sense too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it was aerodynamics, since having the pointier bit facing the wind will reduce air resistance

I don't think that's very significant to be honest - if it was most EMUs wouldn't only have one.

 

[Boodiggy]

Tilt failures seem to occur far less regularly nowadays.

I have noticed over the years you seem to get more in Autumn / Winter. Not sure if there is actually real data that backs that up.

In the picture in #1754, the 805 appears to be using the rear panto.
Don't Avanti use the rear one on Pendolinos?

For 805 running as double units to run at 125mph it needs to have the front pan up on the front unit and the rear pan on the rear unit.
If they have different configurations the speed needs to be reduced.

The Pendo instruction is just AWC operating preference. If there is a pan fault you still see the odd unit running front pan.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In the picture in #1754, the 805 appears to be using the rear panto.
Don't Avanti use the rear one on Pendolinos?

Looked back through my photos/videos and the past couple weeks when 805004 has been doing the London-Lancaster runs it's been using the front pantograph.

 

[marsker]

When I was in Darlington last night, 805 001 was on 5Q08 to Doncaster. Changed from diesel to rear pan while I was there.

 

[800001]

In the picture in #1754, the 805 appears to be using the rear panto.
Don't Avanti use the rear one on Pendolinos?

I stand corrected, I’ve looked back at some pics and some are using the rear, but also some are using the front.

 

[td97]

Yes, it's so that if the rear one causes minor damage or is itself damaged, e.g. by a piece of plastic on the OHLE, there's the possibility the front one and front section of wire remains undamaged and so can be raised and get the train out of trouble, I believe. The other way round and there's more likely to be damage to the rear one (or section of wires) that would prevent that.

I thought it was aerodynamics, since having the pointier bit facing the wind will reduce air resistance
Although that makes sense too.

The Pendo instruction is just AWC operating preference. If there is a pan fault you still see the odd unit running front pan.

I understand AWC use rear so that if the driver spots damaged OLE ahead (e.g. damaged dropper), the pan can be dropped hopefully in enough time to avoid a further damage or worse a dewirement. There are stories of this successfully occurring.
Of course the factors you have all mentioned are relevant too.

 

[reecestrains]

I saw an Avanti West Coast IET at York this morning...

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 0821 Merchant Park Sidings to Oxley Car. M.D. | 11/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 0821 departure from Merchant Park Sidings to Oxley Car. M.D. on 11/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very unusual to see Avanti West Coast on the East Coast Mainline although most likely for testing.

 

[anthony263]

Changing trains at New Street is not an attractive proposition for anyone. I wonder if this is why there is talk of an Open Access provider from Shropshire which has been mentioned somewhere?

Think this is why the dft supported it. Gets them out of a mess plus if it fails they can turn around and blame it on the customers.

Personally I think.it will prove well so much I could see it requiring a much improved timetable down the line if paths are freed up f by HS2

 

[800001]

I saw an Avanti West Coast IET at York this morning...

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 0821 Merchant Park Sidings to Oxley Car. M.D. | 11/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 0821 departure from Merchant Park Sidings to Oxley Car. M.D. on 11/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very unusual to see Avanti West Coast on the East Coast Mainline although most likely for testing.

Every Avanti unit from Aycliffe goes on test on the ECML.
Although this path above is 805010 on delivery move to Oxley depot.

 

[DaveyJones]

I saw an Avanti West Coast IET at York this morning...

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 0821 Merchant Park Sidings to Oxley Car. M.D. | 11/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 0821 departure from Merchant Park Sidings to Oxley Car. M.D. on 11/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very unusual to see Avanti West Coast on the East Coast Mainline although most likely for testing.

Looks like a Delivery