Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Boodiggy]

Does that mean the 221 EPS differentials will be retired on that section from the same date?
Can they run at MU speeds?

That is the plan!

 

[Lurcheroo]

At the moment yes, but they are having a large fleet upgrade and plans have been mentioned for five coach trains, splitting for Aberystwyth and Cambrian Coast along the way. Could be this year.

None of these things will be true as the 197 rollout takes place (other than that some will be 2-car if only going to/from Aberystwyth, but they're much better at taking standees than 158s).

Appreciate I’m a bit late replying here, but last I saw TFW’s Birmingham plan was virtually all 4 cars, I think a 2 car for the departures from Shrewsbury at 5:18am and the 21:30,22:30 and 23:18 (only to Wolverhampton). With the 7:30 and 15:30 departures and their return working from Shrewsbury being 6 cars.
No planned 5 cars but no reason to not believe a rogue 3 car couldn’t end up down there at some point .

 

[Trainfan2019]

There was an Avanti livered AT300 in platform 2 at Crewe this evening, looked great. Departed around 17:00 for Euston.

Yesterday evening I saw an unbranded AT300 at Crewe, took up the entire platform 4. Maybe it was the viewpoint angle but I think it was sticking out the end of the platform slightly.

Both yesterday and today, the platform displays were stating that first class was in coach E. This seemed a bit strange for an empty train, not in public service.

 

[Bald Rick]

it will also be 90 PS 100 MU and 125 EPS at Linslade on the DF

When I saw that on the plan I raised my eyebrows. A lot. All I can say is hold tight!

 

[Boodiggy]

When I saw that on the plan I raised my eyebrows. A lot. All I can say is hold tight!

Agreed!

Yes and yes.


EPS - Enhanced Permissible Speeds. Put simply, these are the 'tilt' speeds 390s and 221s can use on the WCML. In some places a lower figure applies to the 221s vs 390s as the Super Voyagers have a lesser degree of tilting (6 degrees against 8).

MU - Multiple Unit. A differential speed certain classes of multiple unit can use. 22x are included. 390s were not but apparently will be added.

PS - Permissible Speed. The ordinary speed limit useable by all trains up to their speed ceiling.

Vehicle change to reinstate 390 MU classification was completed November 2021!

It is only the EPS differential preventing it being rolled out before now (to my knowledge - AWC may have briefed drivers etc but I doubt that due to the very small benefit that would have before the MU speed profile goes live).

 

[hexagon789]

Vehicle change to reinstate 390 MU classification was completed November 2021!

Reinstate? Interesting.

When and why did they ever lose it?

 

[Boodiggy]

Reinstate? Interesting.

When and why did they ever lose it?

I assume it was to benefit the drivers and not have so many different signs, with the risk of an irregularity, plus such a small section of MU locations on WCML, which will now have the whole route as far as Weaver available so makes sense. In theory the PS will only apply to 390s now where there is no MU speed when not tilting.

 

[Carlisle]

In theory the PS will only apply to 390s now where there is no MU speed when not tilting.

Tilt failures seem to occur far less regularly nowadays.

 

[SansHache]

Reinstate? Interesting.

When and why did they ever lose it?

In the early days of Class 390 introduction there were a couple of sections of route with MU 125mph speed limits where the OLE could only support 110mph (between Rugby and Coventry and Wolverhampton and Stafford). This had not been an issue previously as the electric locos had a maximum speed of 110mph. I think the MU classification was removed as a convenient method of limiting Class 390s to 110mph in these areas.
Once the OLE was upgraded Class 390s were able to operate at 125mph EPS at these locations, but there was little benefit in reinstating the MU classification. Now that MU limits are being introduced extensively between Euston and Crewe it is beneficial to run at the higher speeds when operating non-tilt.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For several years after about 2000 the Bushbury-Stafford line went up to 125mph for MU (HST/Voyager) while the PS speed remained 90mph, because of OHLE restrictions.
The restriction was only removed at the end of the WCRM project, after the OHLE was upgraded.
Even 350s (then 100mph) were impacted by the restriction, as well as the Pendolinos (fairly few at that time, Scotland trains were Voyagers).

 

[Railperf]

Are the new Class 805 engines set at the lower 750hp setting as per original 80x spec as used by LNER or the higher 940hp setting as GWR use?
And had anyone worked out revised SRTs for North Wales based on slower acceleration compared to Class 221?

 

[hexagon789]

Are the new Class 805 engines set at the lower 750hp setting as per original 80x spec as used by LNER or the higher 940hp setting as GWR use?
And had anyone worked out revised SRTs for North Wales based on slower acceleration compared to Class 221?

Restricted to 750bhp in normal operation, but they are otherwise the updated, more powerful version the EMR 810s have - of 985bhp.

 

[wickham]

5Q81 0800 Crewe to Euston seen at Harrow & Wealstone on the up slow line at approx 1120 today (06.03.24) and returning as 5Q82 1305 Euston to Crewe passing Willesden Junction at approx 1315) an all white (or grey?) IEP - can anyone say which one it was please ?

 

[DaveyJones]

It'll be 805006 or 805007 if that helps? (and assuming its the same as the Pendolino its Grey (Telegrey 4)

 

[Bald Rick]

And had anyone worked out revised SRTs for North Wales based on slower acceleration compared to Class 221?

Yes.

 

[Railperf]

Yes.

And what is the time deficit on the 80x SRT's going to be from Crewe to Holyhead for an 80x compared to a 221?

Does anyone know how the traction system on 805's 807's is going to allow stronger acceleration compared to Class 801 on electric when they share the same traction motors taking into account that current performance suggests the 801's are running at full power anyway based on the tractive effort and power curves?

For what it is worth my best Pendolino run from a standing start to three miles is only 20 seconds slower than a Class 801 over the same distance. The difference is not that great unless you run a stopping at all stations service.

The bigger difference is Class 801 vs a HST which would be 90 seconds behind an 801 at 3 miles and 2 minutes behind after 8 miles!!

 

[hexagon789]

And what is the time deficit on the 80x SRT's going to be from Crewe to Holyhead for an 80x compared to a 390?

Surely you mean compared to a 221?

 

[Railperf]

And what is the time deficit on the 80x SRT's going to be from Crewe to Holyhead for an 80x compared to a 390?

Does anyone know how the traction system on 805's 807's is going to allow stronger acceleration compared to Class 801 on electric when they share the same traction motors taking into account that current performance suggests the 801's are running at full power anyway based on the tractive effort and power curves?

For what it is worth my best Pendolino run from a standing start to three miles is only 20 seconds slower than a Class 801 over the same distance. The difference is not that great unless you run a stopping at all stations service.

The bigger difference is Class 801 vs a HST which would be 90 seconds behind an 801 at 3 miles and 2 minutes behind after 8 miles!!

Surely you mean compared to a 221?

Whoops yes Edited lol. brain thinking faster than fingers.

 

[hexagon789]

Whoops yes Edited lol. brain thinking faster than fingers.

If RTT is accurate, they are already using 80x timings it seems.

 

[AJDesiro]

If RTT is accurate, they are already using 80x timings it seems.

Yep, they're using the DMU805 timing load already (shown on RTT as a Diesel Locomotive at 125mph, rather than 220/221). The timing load changes slightly from June to run with the EMU800 timing load from Crewe to Euston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looking at 1D83 (was in the VHF timetable 0910 Euston-Holyhead, is now the 0902):

Currently, presumably on 805 timings, it is given 2h02m Crewe-Holyhead.
Pre-Covid in 2019, as a double Voyager, it was given 2h07m.
From June the timing (from RTT) is 2h05m.

However, the 2019 times have 1 minute for the Chester stop, while the current and future schedules have an 8-minute stop, maybe allowing for unit division.
Timings west of Crewe are not exactly demanding.

 

[childwallblues]

Yes and yes.


EPS - Enhanced Permissible Speeds. Put simply, these are the 'tilt' speeds 390s and 221s can use on the WCML. In some places a lower figure applies to the 221s vs 390s as the Super Voyagers have a lesser degree of tilting (6 degrees against 8).

MU - Multiple Unit. A differential speed certain classes of multiple unit can use. 22x are included. 390s were not but apparently will be added.

PS - Permissible Speed. The ordinary speed limit useable by all trains up to their speed ceiling.

Thank you.

 

[Railperf]

Looking at 1D83 (was in the VHF timetable 0910 Euston-Holyhead, is now the 0902):

Currently, presumably on 805 timings, it is given 2h02m Crewe-Holyhead.
Pre-Covid in 2019, as a double Voyager, it was given 2h07m.
From June the timing (from RTT) is 2h05m.

However, the 2019 times have 1 minute for the Chester stop, while the current and future schedules have an 8-minute stop, maybe allowing for unit division.
Timings west of Crewe are not exactly demanding.

So a net three min slower for 805 sectional running times Crewe to Holyhead compared to 220/221? Seems about right. Let's hope the 805's are more reliable than GWR 80x on diesel, because they are very slow with an engine out. Voyagers are fine with 4 of 5 engines running
But an 80x running on 2 of 3 engines really loses a chunk of power and performance.

 

[AJDesiro]

So a net three min slower for 805 sectional running times Crewe to Holyhead compared to 220/221? Seems about right.

This is due to an additional Flint call on this service from June. All Avanti passenger services are currently running using 805 SRTs on the NWC.

 

[Efini92]

When I saw that on the plan I raised my eyebrows. A lot. All I can say is hold tight!

My thoughts exactly, I don’t fancy being the first through linslade tunnel.

Agreed!


Vehicle change to reinstate 390 MU classification was completed November 2021!

It is only the EPS differential preventing it being rolled out before now (to my knowledge - AWC may have briefed drivers etc but I doubt that due to the very small benefit that would have before the MU speed profile goes live).

Is this in writing anywhere? 390’s are still shown as excluded from MU speeds.

 

[The Planner]

My thoughts exactly, I don’t fancy being the first through linslade tunnel.

Is this in writing anywhere? 390’s are still shown as excluded from MU speeds.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/network-code/Vehicle%20Change/Completed%20Vehicle%20Changes/Class%20390%20Reinstatement/b.%20Class%20390%20%20Reinstatement%20Notification%20VCF22021NWC837.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/network-code/Vehicle%20Change/Completed%20Vehicle%20Changes/Class%20390%20Reinstatement/x.%20Class%20390%20VCF22021NWC837%20Establishment.pdf

 

[Efini92]

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/network-code/Vehicle%20Change/Completed%20Vehicle%20Changes/Class%20390%20Reinstatement/b.%20Class%20390%20%20Reinstatement%20Notification%20VCF22021NWC837.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/network-code/Vehicle%20Change/Completed%20Vehicle%20Changes/Class%20390%20Reinstatement/x.%20Class%20390%20VCF22021NWC837%20Establishment.pdf

Cheers. This is interesting. I’m sure Avanti will get round to briefing us eventually.

 

[Railperf]

This is due to an additional Flint call on this service from June. All Avanti passenger services are currently running using 805 SRTs on the NWC.

So does anyone know what the net difference in SRT's are between the previous 221 timings and 80x diesel?

 

[43055]

Looking at 1D83 (was in the VHF timetable 0910 Euston-Holyhead, is now the 0902):

Currently, presumably on 805 timings, it is given 2h02m Crewe-Holyhead.
Pre-Covid in 2019, as a double Voyager, it was given 2h07m.
From June the timing (from RTT) is 2h05m.

However, the 2019 times have 1 minute for the Chester stop, while the current and future schedules have an 8-minute stop, maybe allowing for unit division.
Timings west of Crewe are not exactly demanding.

The 0910 as it was use to be a 10 car throughout but now seems to just be a 5 car. Looking at Chester for the new timetable the does seem to be a 1132 to London from platform 3 as well so it does seem there will one day be a split on this service as the 1132 is currently a 'runs as required path'. Later in the day it seems that both units will then join again with the 1606 from London joining with the 1632 to London from Holyhead.

 

[Bald Rick]

So does anyone know what the net difference in SRT's are between the previous 221 timings and 80x diesel?

All the 80x running times are out there; on electric where there are wires, and diesel where there arent. So it is possible to work it out.