Which would push it even closer to operating as an airline, as generally services aren't at the intermediate stations for five minutes before departure unless something's wrong (and not letting passengers onto the platform until five minutes before departure isn't good either).
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LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets
- Thread starter Fuzzytop
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I'd argue that the "simpler" fares are bad enough in themselves without us thinking of ways they could make it even worse...
Quite. Don't give them ideas.
What I was trying to get at is that LNER (and others) force me to pick a train for the outward journey when I am booking a flexible (walk up) ticket and then give me a reservation for that train even though I might not travel on it and wouldn’t want a reservation if I did. I would object strongly to being charged a fee for a reservation I neither needed nor wanted.
The ‘needlessly’ booked seat is down to the retailers not me.
In various other European countries I have never been given a reservation I have not asked for when booking a walk up ticket.
MrJeeves
Established Member
Down the the TOC, actually. LNER force us to create reservations when booking a journey which includes their services.
D6700
Member
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However, some websites sensibly enable you to buy flexible tickets without specifying which services you wish to travel on, so come with no reservations at all.
The whole point of what I was suggesting was that you would not be given the reservation, and if you wanted one you would have to pay for it. If they tried to charge separately for a compulsory reservation then they'd very quickly have the OFT at their door.
It can be slightly uncomfortable in Europe trying to figure out whether you need to reserve a seat or not - local trains in Norway seem to be mostly unreserved with about half a coach marked as potentially reserved, where Sweden only has about half a coach marked as safe. I don't think the proportion of people who actually reserve is different in either country. One of the things we do get right is displaying the reservations so that you can travel unreserved in a degree of comfort.
modernrail
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i have long thought there should not just be a system but a culture encouraged to cancel seat reservations and bike reservations you don’t need. It would have a huge impact.
I often don’t sit in my assigned seat because the system has completely ignored my request for a facing window and put me in a windowless backwards seat. If there was a system to do it I would like to be able to cancel the seat reservation I had so it frees it up for somebody else en route.
I always cancel bike reservations using social media.
The seat/bike booking system is dross and has been at the heart of lots of locking out of capacity for ages. We are told each seat is precious, but the system has not been built to help keep it precious.
I often don’t sit in my assigned seat because the system has completely ignored my request for a facing window and put me in a windowless backwards seat. If there was a system to do it I would like to be able to cancel the seat reservation I had so it frees it up for somebody else en route.
I always cancel bike reservations using social media.
The seat/bike booking system is dross and has been at the heart of lots of locking out of capacity for ages. We are told each seat is precious, but the system has not been built to help keep it precious.
If it's with LNER (or XC or Avanti), you can select your seat, if you book directly with them; or alternatively, if you book with us, we will let you select a seat on any operator (where available/applicable).
But from now on, can we try to stick to the removal of Off Peak in this thread please?
If anyone has any proposals for alternative systems, these can be posted in the relevant forum section, thanks
LNER (and a few others) have set their trains to compulsory reservation in the data.
Where "open return" fares available, sites that allow the "open return" option (which our site now does) can bypass this requirement.
However, with single leg pricing, that is no longer possible; whether it's all part of LNER's plan to try to act as if reservations are essential on their trains, I am not sure.
In any case, the +/- 70 minute time window doesn't actually achieve that anyway, although of course LNER want people to get a reservation for the alternative train, but it isn't essential, despite the data suggesting otherwise.
The whole thing is a mess of LNER/DfT's making.
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D6700
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Just to clarify, it is possible when using some websites. I was travelling with such a ticket when I made my previous post and am also doing so right now. I booked on a site that uses the old "Mixing Deck", where it is possible to select a fare without picking a train from the list of highlighted valid itineraries. I bought the out and back single leg tickets as one return journey and didn't have a reservation in either direction.
With LNER's approach, they may well see me as a bad man - not conforming with how they expect their customers to behave! I also changed my plan to travel back by 75 minutes - which is more than they consider reasonable with this trial!
Mainline421
Member
Interesting, you're right https://tickets.lumo.co.uk will happily do this. Much better than the suggestion to book a random train (and exacerbate the problem for others) that's usually given here.
Of course it's always possible at the station as well.
Of course it's always possible at the station as well.
I must say I find the colour coded lights on the IETs are a great idea. Very simple to understand.
MrJeeves
Established Member
That's also being retrofitted to Avanti's Pendolinos as part of a trial at the moment.
Considering the number of trains I get on in this country which do not have the reservations displayed I can't agree that we get it right.
In Sweden (where I travel regularly) it is clear which coach to head to first if you do not have a reservation. Here, even assuming the reservations are displayed, it is usually not clear at all, although to be fair LNER make a better fist than most of letting people know which are the unreserved coach(es) before they board.
Reading Twitter threads about the Avanti West Coast farce this evening has left me wondering how the push towards Single Leg Pricing affects delay repay. If you hold a return ticket you're entitled to the lot back after two hours, but if you hold a couple of singles then are they treated individually?
MrJeeves
Established Member
You only get compensation on that single ticket, but the compensation is twice the percentage you would get for a return.
e.g., 1 hour is 100% of the single, 30 mins is 50%, 15 mins where available is 25%.
Yes, for a delay of up to 1hr59m you don't lose out, you get 25/50/100% of the leg. But for a two-hour delay you would have had 100% of BOTH legs with a return ticket.
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MrJeeves
Established Member
Yep, it's just another way SLP benefits the industry.
miklcct
On Moderation
The ability to easily mix Advance and Off-Peak tickets far outweighs to the loss of Delay Repay for a delay of more than 2 hours.
I have never had a single delay of 2 hours of more on my thousands of train journeys in the UK. If there is such a long delay, it is most likely a disaster scenario such as the total breakdown of Great Western Main Line in the past which requires emergency services to deal with.
thedbdiboy
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Benefits the GOVERNMENT. Delay Repay schemes are (and have always) effectively been taxpayer funded - either factored into the Franchise terms or now directly related to the DfT cost model.
Instead of progressing the underlying issues of the industry, successive ministers were happy to sign off on ever more generous delay compensation as an 'incentive' to improve performance. Pre-COVID it could all get hidden via the franchising process and meant a good press release for DfT, however it did nothing to sort out the fundamental performance issues of the network and the bill has been growing ever more horrendous as performance collapses. Another example of why politicians probably really shouldn't be let anywhere near running things
MrJeeves
Established Member
The ability to do exactly that already exists within fares data, and is made use of by many other operators. If the reason is wanting booked train out, flexible return LNER could just do that...
miklcct
On Moderation
Also not mentioned above is the easy ability to do triangular journeys and journeys where the outward and return routes are different.
I fully supported the fare increase for return journeys in exchange of massively increased flexibility, and I have already benefitted from Single Leg Pricing multiple times since its introduction by booking outward and return at different times.
BRX
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2hr delays aren't entirely unusual for me to experience but I do quite a lot of rail journeys between london & the north of Scotland.
A 2hr delay on a 9+ hr journey isn't as extreme as it would be on a 3hr journey. And if the journey involves a leg on a line which has a 1-2hr interval between services it's not that difficult for a smaller delay on a previous leg to turn into a 2hr one at the final destination.
The full refund of outward & return legs in that scenario seems very generous to be honest, not that I've ever complained when I've been able to take advantage.
A 2hr delay on a 9+ hr journey isn't as extreme as it would be on a 3hr journey. And if the journey involves a leg on a line which has a 1-2hr interval between services it's not that difficult for a smaller delay on a previous leg to turn into a 2hr one at the final destination.
The full refund of outward & return legs in that scenario seems very generous to be honest, not that I've ever complained when I've been able to take advantage.
MrJeeves
Established Member
Excess to other routes?
Quite frankly I don't think anyone is complaining about decreasing single prices to be half of a return. I'm certainly in favour of that.
What I am against is completely abolishing return fares entirely. You now have no return break of journey, in some cases no outward break of journey where tickets were originally valid for five days outbound, and no flexibility in when you return if you are not sure at the time of booking.
Personally, I think that flexible singles should be (roughly) half the price of their equivalent returns at all times and on all routes.
I would be okay with a slight increase (+5 to +10%?) compared to double a single to reflect their greater flexibility on return journeys. This way people with concrete dates still receive a discount compared to open returns, which could potentially discourage abuse of open returns which I assume is a fairly significant factor for the train companies and the government when looking at single leg pricing.
Yes, you have mentioned this before; my answer remains the same: the majority, who make return journeys, should not be paying more (massively more in the case of people travelling at former Off Peak times) in order for a smaller proportion of people to pay less for triangular journeys.
Yes; it is well documented that you want the majority to pay more so that you can pay less, but I don't think the majority would agree.
Singles being half the cost of returns would have been great, but that's not what LNER did!
BRX
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In any case if the triangular journeys can only be done on routes priced by LNER the usefulness is somewhat limited.
miklcct
On Moderation
I am not so sure what the majority want is actually a simple return journey, rather than:
- coach out, train back
- out to a station, return from another nearby station
- advance out, flexible back
- GroupSave out, individual back
- peak out, off-peak back
- East Coast Main Line out, Midland Main Line back
etc.
Without single leg pricing, all the above passengers have to overpay in form of a ticket which can't be used in full.
These might be what you want but it’s not representative of the average traveller.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
While some of those are niche, I'd think "Advance out, flexible back" to be decidedly less than niche. It's quite possible for someone to know their outward time but not their return (usually that way round). It was the whole basis of those Virgin Saver Half tickets which were sold only with a ticket going the other way.
I also don't think peak one way, off peak the other is at all niche. Someone going into the London office but for a social/a few pints afterwards is doing that.