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LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

Fuzzytop

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LNER is to pilot the replacement of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on certain flows (Kings Cross to Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh) with a new '70-minute Flex' ticket. During the trial there will be only three fare types available: Anytime, 70-min Flex, and Advance.

From https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lner-launches-pioneering-pilot-to-further-simplify-fares/:
The trial offers a clearer choice of tickets and aims to make buying them even easier. It will include journeys between London King’s Cross and Newcastle, London and Berwick-upon-Tweed and London and Edinburgh, for travel with LNER.

This next step of Simpler Fares builds on the successful roll out of Single Leg Pricing across most of the LNER route, providing customers with far greater flexibility to mix and match their fares and reducing the number of different products on the market for customers to understand.

Simpler Fares comprises two significant changes. Firstly, fares will be made simpler. The pilot will see the removal of complicated ticket types and replacement with three straightforward options on the trial routes. The changes also mean journeys will be priced more closely to demand, helping to smooth demand for services over the course of the day, all aimed at making rail travel even more attractive.

LNER will introduce a new type of semi-flexible ticket. For the pilot markets, the new fare structure will go on sale on 16 January 2024 for travel from 5 February 2024:
  • Advance (Fixed) – the best value fare, booked in advance for a fixed journey with a guaranteed reserved seat for travel with LNER.
  • ‘70min Flex’ (Semi-Flexible) – a new type of ticket offering customers the flexibility to travel on other LNER services, which can be 70 minutes before or after their original booked journey.
  • Anytime (Fully-Flexible) – this ticket can be used at any time of day.
Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares, which now only represent 11 per cent of journeys included in the pilot, will be removed from 5 February 2024.

If Flex tickets are priced competitively, then I would consider buying them over an Advance. But they are surely much less useful than the Off-Peak types they are replacing.
 
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Bletchleyite

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How's that less complicated?

What an utterly awful idea. Dare I suspect that the intention is that the feedback will be "that's complicated" and thus they can move to Anytime and Advance only?

That's me not using LNER then, not that I do very often anyway! How will Fares Regulation be approached, using a fares basket? Or are they being given free rein to charge what they like?
 

1Q18

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Oh dear… that’s not ideal for anyone using staff priv discount, where off-peak/super off-peak fares are the cheapest tickets we can buy.
 

Alex C.

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If I'm reading this right, you will now either have to buy an anytime ticket, or choose a service and be able to take one an hour either side of it (I presume the 70 minutes is to account for slight variations in clock face timings). This is not passenger friendly, and not really simplification, it's just an opportunity to increase revenue. Presumably all flex tickets will be LNER only so the revenue will accrue 100% to them?
 

Bletchleyite

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Oh dear… that’s not ideal for anyone using staff priv discount, where off-peak/super off-peak fares are the cheapest tickets we can buy.

I suspect they'll see a lot of splits being sold, or tickets to places just past the places named to avoid this. Ridiculous (unless they were to drop the Anytime to the Super Off Peak price, but we know they won't!)

If I'm reading this right, you will now either have to buy an anytime ticket, or choose a service and be able to take one an hour either side of it (I presume the 70 minutes is to account for slight variations in clock face timings). This is not passenger friendly, and not really simplification, it's just an opportunity to increase revenue. Presumably all flex tickets will be LNER only so the revenue will accrue 100% to them?

I wonder if it'll have a positive or negative effect on Lumo's ORCATS raid? (That is will more people buy Lumo's own Anytime which is priced around the LNER Super Off Peak, or will they lose out on Super Off Peak revenue?)
 

WelshBluebird

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Disgraceful. But who is actually going to be able to stand up to this price hike (as that is what it actually is)?
 

Bletchleyite

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Disgraceful. But who is actually going to be able to stand up to this price hike (as that is what it actually is)?

I'd be more concerned, as noted above, that this is a deliberate attempt to make the "middle tier" such that nobody buys it (because why would you? It's not very flexible and will no doubt be priced up from an Advance quite a lot), so they can move to Anytime and Advance only as the outcome of the trial.

And yes, I'm sure it'll hide a price increase - and would like to know (maybe a FoI is in order?) how Fares Regulation applies to it, or if it has been removed for these flows.
 
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I'm struggling to understand what part of this plan is simpler for passengers.. will the new ticket be available as a walk-up ticket, or will it be online only, with anyone who purchases their ticket when they get to the station face forking out for the more expensive ticket type?
 

Bletchleyite

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If Flex tickets are priced competitively, then I would consider buying them over an Advance. But they are surely much less useful than the Off-Peak types they are replacing.

It's in effect just building in insurance for missing your train. Thus people who are disorganised might like them, but people who don't typically miss trains gain basically nothing.

I can't see many selling, and it'd certainly push me towards Lumo (subject to not having much luggage) or Avanti instead. Or if I'm going to have to be non-flexible I might as well fly!

I hope the Press give them an almighty kicking over this.

FWIW if this is successful and goes national that'll basically be the end of my long distance rail travel - perhaps time to upgrade the car?
 

robbeech

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Simple.

(I’m not a fan of one word replies but I genuinely feel it sums it up, through a layer of sarcasm).
 

MrJeeves

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I do wonder how this might affect buy on board for passengers who board with an invalid (or thought to be) or no ticket...

Will they be sold the 70 min ticket or bumped up to the Anytime?
 

Fuzzytop

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... will no doubt be priced up from an Advance quite a lot ...
It looks like a flat £20 on the respective Advance ticket to start with (£13.20 for Railcard holders):

Screenshot 2024-01-16 at 9.44.17 am.png
(Image of the LNER booking system for Tue 27 Feb, showing trains leaving London at Newcastle: 0900 priced at £60 Advance, £80 Flex, £192.80 Anytime; 0930 priced at £38.60 Advance, £58.60 Flex, £192.80 Anytime.)

However this means that the cheapest ticket valid on the 0900 train is in fact a Flex booked for the 0930. Not confusing at all!
 

miklcct

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LNER is to pilot the replacement of Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on certain flows (Kings Cross to Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh) with a new '70-minute Flex' ticket. During the trial there will be only three fare types available: Anytime, 70-min Flex, and Advance.

From https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lner-launches-pioneering-pilot-to-further-simplify-fares/:


If Flex tickets are priced competitively, then I would consider buying them over an Advance. But they are surely much less useful than the Off-Peak types they are replacing.
Oh god. It will be the end of London - Edinburgh rail travel for me and I will probably stop travelling.

Anytime tickets are simply not affordable for leisure travellers.
 

Bletchleyite

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FWIW I note the trial has deliberately been done on the longer distance trips where people are less likely to want flexibility, rather than doing it on say Leeds where they might get a different outcome. Funny, that.

Well, we now know what "dynamic pricing" meant...kind of surprised the Anytime isn't also removed to allow them to go higher.
 

CyrusWuff

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Oh dear… that’s not ideal for anyone using staff priv discount, where off-peak/super off-peak fares are the cheapest tickets we can buy.
Allegedly there's at least one tier of Flex that can have a Priv discount applied. Haven't seen a brief yet however, so can't confirn that.
 

yorkie

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How's that less complicated?
The people who get to decide what is or isn't complicated are the DfT, and it's driven by the sort of people who argue that Ryanair style pricing is the way to go.
What an utterly awful idea. Dare I suspect that the intention is that the feedback will be "that's complicated" and thus they can move to Anytime and Advance only?
Quite possibly; it's difficult to say.
That's me not using LNER then, not that I do very often anyway!
Book through the forum, select flexible, and we'll ensure you get appropriate splits, so you can retain flexibility. Or book from West Hampstead, rather than London, or Haymarket rather than Waverley, Metrocentre instead of Newcastle.
How will Fares Regulation be approached, using a fares basket? Or are they being given free rein to charge what they like?
The DfT get to decide the rules these days.

FWIW I note the trial has deliberately been done on the longer distance trips where people are less likely to want flexibility, rather than doing it on say Leeds where they might get a different outcome. Funny, that.

Well, we now know what "dynamic pricing" meant...kind of surprised the Anytime isn't also removed to allow them to go higher.
Yes, this is no doubt so they can justify calling it a "success".

But if they roll this out nationwide, but only for longer journeys, then people could circumvent the system by splitting. We'll offer that automatically.

Ultimately, they will want shorter flows to be done in this way too. So it's important to resist this now as it's the thin end of the wedge.

Disgraceful. But who is actually going to be able to stand up to this price hike (as that is what it actually is)?
Transport Focus? Oh, wait.... :lol:

Oh god. It will be the end of London - Edinburgh rail travel for me and I will probably stop travelling.
I think they would like that; at busy times the trains are pretty full and the aim is to deter travellers.
Anytime tickets are simply not affordable for leisure travellers.
Their expectation is that everyone is going to be paying the Advance or Flex rate, apart from perhaps business users and people who are on the 'wrong train' and they're deemed fair game to extract as much money as possible from!

If I'm reading this right, you will now either have to buy an anytime ticket, or choose a service and be able to take one an hour either side of it (I presume the 70 minutes is to account for slight variations in clock face timings). This is not passenger friendly, and not really simplification, it's just an opportunity to increase revenue.
Correct, however the media gives exposure to people who argue that "(super) off peak" tickets are "complicated" and therefore they are able to (erroneously) argue that this is simplification.

The problem is that some simple minded people, who are highly vocal and given attention in the media, genuinely do believe that it is simple to either be told you have to travel at a certain time or be able to travel at any time; hence why the DfT are trying to prevent people purchasing tickets that are reasonably priced but allow travel at a wide variety of times.

It's a similar thing with permitted routes; some simple minded people think that we should be told the exact route we should take, as the concept of being given a wide variety of choices is "complicated".

The media gives publicity to these simple minded people because it will generate clicks/sales/views, and the DfT panders to this.
Presumably all flex tickets will be LNER only so the revenue will accrue 100% to them?
Yes they are LNER only.
 
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Bletchleyite

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What's fairly notable is that a lot of people buy tickets using Trainline, and that will offer the splits as well...could LNER find they sell fewer of these tickets than they intended?

Edit: Looks like Trainline only sells split Advances on these trains, it must only offer the cheapest split.
 

Fuzzytop

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Or book from West Hampstead, rather than London, or Haymarket rather than Waverley, Metrocentre instead of Newcastle.
Good spot, this worked for me - Finsbury Park to Newcastle still offering a Super Off-Peak fare.

Workarounds aside, it's weekends where this fare hike will be felt the most - after all, there are large parts of Monday to Thursday when the Super Off-Peak isn't valid (and, as part of the move to Single Leg Pricing, LNER removed the simple 'Off-Peak Return' on their flows to/from London).

Currently it'd be £83.80 to be able to take any train from London to Newcastle on a given Saturday; during the pilot that'll rise to £192.80. Horrific!
 

Bletchleyite

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Currently it'd be £83.80 to be able to take any train from London to Newcastle on a given Saturday; during the pilot that'll rise to £192.80. Horrific!

I suspect part of the intention is that Friday evening and Sunday afternoon will be heading towards those prices. That is, to remove the cap on those fares that the Super Off Peak provides.

I could almost accept it as a genuine simplification if they went to Anytime and Advance only, and dropped the Anytime price significantly (e.g. to around £100 London-Newcastle), but that's clearly not the intention, the intention is clearly more revenue.
 

Fuzzytop

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It's in effect just building in insurance for missing your train.
This is the best definition I've found - these are just Advances with insurance, because they really are not very flexible at all.

A quick search on BRFares (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=NCL&rte=780&tkt=DNX) confirms details of the new 'Flex' tickets:
  1. Non-refundable.
  2. LNER only (so no hopping on a Lumo within the period of flexibility).
  3. No break of journey.
  4. As well as departing ±70min from the original departure time, you must arrive within 180 minutes of the original booked arrival time.
  5. If you change trains mid-journey and travel on a train which also served your origin station en route, this train must have departed the origin within the period of flexibility.
 

Iskra

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Are people really going to bother with these? Most people will want a reserved seat, which is problematic when not booked on a specific service.


Good spot, this worked for me - Finsbury Park to Newcastle still offering a Super Off-Peak fare.

Workarounds aside, it's weekends where this fare hike will be felt the most - after all, there are large parts of Monday to Thursday when the Super Off-Peak isn't valid (and, as part of the move to Single Leg Pricing, LNER removed the simple 'Off-Peak Return' on their flows to/from London).

Currently it'd be £83.80 to be able to take any train from London to Newcastle on a given Saturday; during the pilot that'll rise to £192.80. Horrific!
It’s also weekends when the service is least frequent and at its most unreliable on the network, so raising prices combined with poor service hardly seems a recipe for success.
 

RailWonderer

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How about calling them:
Flexible - booked only
Semi Flexible - Travel on any train within 70 mins of purchase (excluding peaks)
Anytime - Any service of the day

The problem is that some simple minded people, who are highly vocal and given attention in the media, genuinely do believe that it is simple to either be told you have to travel at a certain time or be able to travel at any time; hence why the DfT are trying to prevent people purchasing tickets that are reasonably priced but allow travel at a wide variety of times.
What will be interesting is how many off peak users move to advance or semi-flex or stop travelling altogether. Semi flex just guarantees flexiblity if you miss a service but not if you want to travel a few hours later say. I think this new system is fine although it does reduce some flexiblity but still doesn't reduce complication of fares.

I suspect a few will move to anytime as well but most won't.
 

Bletchleyite

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It’s also weekends when the service is least frequent and at its most unreliable on the network, so raising prices combined with poor service hardly seems a recipe for success.

One very significant reason I don't like Advances is that when things go wrong my options are limited. Thus I have far more of an issue with this in the state of the network at present.
 

Iskra

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One very significant reason I don't like Advances is that when things go wrong my options are limited. Thus I have far more of an issue with this in the state of the network at present.
Can you give a specific example? I’ve never had a problem and have just taken the next train via a reasonable alternative route, after asking the guard. That’s just the same as what you’d do with an anytime ticket, the only difference being you may not need to ask on an anytime.
 

800001

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How about calling them:
Flexible - booked only
Semi Flexible - Travel on any train within 70 mins of purchase (excluding peaks)
Anytime - Any service of the day


What will be interesting is how many off peak users move to advance or semi-flex or stop travelling altogether. Semi flex just guarantees flexiblity if you miss a service but not if you want to travel a few hours later say. I think this new system is fine although it does reduce some flexiblity but still doesn't reduce complication of fares.

I suspect a few will move to anytime as well but most won't.
Am lead to believe that you can move this ‘flex’ ticket to later in the day via the App which also gives a seat reservation, and also via ticket office but with no reservation. Whether that incurs an additional cost I am unsure.
 
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This is the best definition I've found - these are just Advances with insurance, because they really are not very flexible at all.

A quick search on BRFares (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=NCL&rte=780&tkt=DNX) confirms details of the new 'Flex' tickets:
  1. Non-refundable.
  2. LNER only (so no hopping on a Lumo within the period of flexibility).
  3. No break of journey.
  4. As well as departing ±70min from the original departure time, you must arrive within 180 minutes of the original booked arrival time.
  5. If you change trains mid-journey and travel on a train which also served your origin station en route, this train must have departed the origin within the period of flexibility.

How is that any simpler than an off-peak ticket? Most passengers understand the limits of an off-peak ticket, who is going to research this new ticket.. I can see many people getting caught out by this..

Also, that implies that the only walk up fare now will be anytime tickets. What a way to penalise people with uncertain travel plans :rolleyes:
 

Bletchleyite

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How is that any simpler than an off-peak ticket? Most passengers understand the limits of an off-peak ticket, who is going to research this new ticket.. I can see many people getting caught out by this..

Also, that implies that the only walk up fare now will be anytime tickets. What a way to penalise people with uncertain travel plans :rolleyes:

The BRFares page is quite interesting. It reads like the idea is that you should use the LNER app and change your journey to use the flexibility, and it'll offer a £0 change if it meets the requirements but a chargeable change if it doesn't.

It's also full of unpublished restrictions which appear to be intended to bar specific trains.
 

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