"£100m" claim launched against TOCS re: Boundary zone tickets

[hwl]

To cut a long story short (and because I can't say too much on this subject), it may not be deemed worthwhile pursuing those TOCs.

Some TOCs were far less aggressive with boundary fares e.g Southern pre GTR so potential for claims far smaller. Along Southern's Oyster and Key push the picking for lawyers were small.

 

[JonathanH]

Have had problems with them before (albeit outwith the London area) with a number of ticket offices seeking to charge more than what should have been due for a one way change of route excess on the return leg of a particular journey.

Yes, my limited experience has been that an underpin of the relevant single fare will often be charged for a one way change of route excess.

On boundary fares, I note that, when I was commuting on trains from Waterloo towards Reading, a lot of people who were travelling outside the zones would take a chance on not buying boundary tickets, noting that you had to queue up to get them. It really was arrogant of the operators to not allow remote issue from ticket machines when they could have had specific boundary extension ticket machines at Waterloo instead of making people buy them from the ticket office.

 

[paul1609]

Are the independant retailers able to sell BZ tickets?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Getting back to Boundary Zone tickets, think the one time I travelled (one way) from Stansted Airport into London Liverpool Street, this in combination with a Zones 1-6 Gold travelcard, I got charged for a (discounted) single from Stansted to Enfield Lock rather than to BZ6. Presume that's right?

 

[Haywain]

Are the independant retailers able to sell BZ tickets?

There’s nothing to stop them.

 

[JonathanH]

There’s nothing to stop them.

...other than the (apparent) need to select an itinerary when making a booking.

 

[yorkie]

Getting back to Boundary Zone tickets, think the one time I travelled (one way) from Stansted Airport into London Liverpool Street, this in combination with a Zones 1-6 Gold travelcard, I got charged for a (discounted) single from Stansted to Enfield Lock rather than to BZ6. Presume that's right?

It's not right, no. But better than charging you all the way to London! Given current fares that would be an overcharge of 45p

Some TOCs were far less aggressive with boundary fares e.g Southern pre GTR so potential for claims far smaller. Along Southern's Oyster and Key push the picking for lawyers were small.

Also GTR enabled Boundary Zone fares from TVMs a few years ago. Many TOCs chose not to do this.

Indeed this appears to date back to one of GTR's predecessors, Southern back in 2012:

in some cases, popular tickets have not previously been offered on TVMs if they do not commence from the station at which the TVM is located – boundary zone fares are the most requested category. Southern are piloting the provision of these tickets on their machine

There’s nothing to stop them.

Apart from Rail Delivery Group not making it easy for them to do so, and reducing the commission available to third party retailers to an absolute pittance.

 

[Haywain]

...other than the (apparent) need to select an itinerary when making a booking.

All online retailers have that problem to contend with, not just the independents.

 

[infobleep]

I would imagine evidence such as tickets purchased (which could be a physical or electronic ticket), debit/credit card statements, etc.

A credit card or debit card statement wouldn't have the station names or ticket type purchased and I imagine most people wouldn't have the tickets any more. Would that matter?

Would the TOC still have a record to link it up?

Of course online tickets would work uf a record existed of the purchase still or one had the e-mail still but I was thinking more TMV and ticket office sold tickets?

I don't know what the level of burden of proof is.

 

[yorkie]

A credit card or debit card statement wouldn't have the station names or ticket type purchased and I imagine most people wouldn't have the tickets any more. Would that matter?

If it matches the price of a relevant product then I would have thought that would suffice.

 

[Haywain]

Apart from Rail Delivery Group not making it easy for them to do so, and reducing the commission available to third party retailers to an absolute pittance.

In what way are RDG "not making it easy"? And do 3rd party retailers get lower commission than TOC retailers?

 

[alistairlees]

In what way are RDG "not making it easy"? And do 3rd party retailers get lower commission than TOC retailers?

Are independent retailers able to cross-subsidise discounts by dipping into the other 95%?

 

[Haywain]

Are independent retailers able to cross-subsidise discounts by dipping into the other 95%?

I’m not sure what you mean. Are RDG doing anything to prevent or restrict you selling BZ tickets? And would you earn different commissions on sales of the periodic products to TOC retailers?

 

[maniacmartin]

Even though it is not technically valid when combining with a day travelcard, there are a lot of staff that will sell a ticket originating from the last station in the zones if you ask for a boundary zone which is often the same price. The practice is so widespread amongst some TOCs (such as Great Western) that I would guess that a lot of staff probably think it is a valid combination.

 

[yorkie]

Even though it is not technically valid when combining with a day travelcard, there are a lot of staff that will sell a ticket originating from the last station in the zones if you ask for a boundary zone which is often the same price....

This is true; often the price is the same though not always (in the example posted above the overcharge was 45p) and sometimes it reduces rights (e.g. removes routeing options) but not always.

As for the matter regarding how third party retailers are disadvantaged, I won't comment further on that matter in this thread. Maybe one day I might make a dedicated thread about it.

 

[Watershed]

Even though it is not technically valid when combining with a day travelcard, there are a lot of staff that will sell a ticket originating from the last station in the zones if you ask for a boundary zone which is often the same price. The practice is so widespread amongst some TOCs (such as Great Western) that I would guess that a lot of staff probably think it is a valid combination.

I don't see how that is invalid. A Travelcard is a zonal ticket and therefore splits can be done at the last station in the zones (or indeed any other station covered by the Travelcard), as long as the train passes through that station.

The main issue with station-specific (as opposed to Boundary Zone) splits is that it reduces the choice of routes.

 

[furlong]

On GWR, on multiple occasions I've been advised that the company accepts a ticket to the boundary station you are passing through as an equivalent substitute for a proper Boundary Zone ticket because the genuine article is too difficult to obtain.

 

[swt_passenger]

Getting back to Boundary Zone tickets, think the one time I travelled (one way) from Stansted Airport into London Liverpool Street, this in combination with a Zones 1-6 Gold travelcard, I got charged for a (discounted) single from Stansted to Enfield Lock rather than to BZ6. Presume that's right?

Quite a while back now I think, they weren’t always available heading towards the zones.

 

[PeterC]

Quite a while back now I think, they weren’t always available heading towards the zones.

My original understanding, from over 10 years ago, was the same.

 

[Isaiah]

Brilliant. About time the rip-off merchants got what's coming to them.

 

[Haywain]

Quite a while back now I think, they weren’t always available heading towards the zones.

That’s true, tickets with a BZ destination were rather unusual.

 

[mickey]

On GWR, on multiple occasions I've been advised that the company accepts a ticket to the boundary station you are passing through as an equivalent substitute for a proper Boundary Zone ticket because the genuine article is too difficult to obtain.

I have a much more cynical explanation for it. Back when I used to have a travelcard, I had to fight many times at Ealing Broadway to be given a BZ ticket, despite always asking specifically by name, as they typically ignored me when I did. Regularly I even had to advise the duty manager that I would be taking FGW (as was) to court to recover my lost funds if they didn’t reissue with the ticket I had actually requested (over time I learnt to watch out for the name popping up on the computer display before paying). They always said it was TOC policy not to issue as BZ. The reason I believe they did it? Because issuing from Hayes & Harlington or West Drayton (depending whether I had Z5 or Z6 at the time) meant they kept all of the money... as I was effectively forced to return the same way. Whereas I usually intended to return from Reading to Richmond via the Staines route, so deliberately wanted the flexibility in routing.

I hope the TOCs are taken to the cleaners, both as punishment and to force a change in behaviour.

 

[JonathanH]

Whereas I usually intended to return from Reading to Richmond via the Staines route, so deliberately wanted the flexibility in routing.

Boundary Zone 6 fares to Reading are explicitly routed via either Slough or Ascot so you can't have that flexibility (without the added complication of 'change of route excess' or booking to Tilehurst) in any case.

https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=0072&dest=RDG

 

[yorkie]

Boundary Zone 6 fares to Reading are explicitly routed via either Slough or Ascot so you can't have that flexibility (without the added complication of 'change of route excess' or booking to Tilehurst) in any case.

https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=0072&dest=RDG

Except you can get a change of route excess.

 

[mickey]

Boundary Zone 6 fares to Reading are explicitly routed via either Slough or Ascot so you can't have that flexibility (without the added complication of 'change of route excess' or booking to Tilehurst) in any case.

https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=0072&dest=RDG

I typically travelled beyond Reading (usually Oxford area), which has no such restriction.

 

[JonathanH]

I typically travelled beyond Reading (usually Oxford area), which has no such restriction.

Yes, I agree that it is only Reading that has that Slough / Ascot restriction on Boundary Zone 6 tickets, not the stations further west.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @furlong to provide an update

 

[furlong]

There will be a hearing at the end of the month to consider a proposed settlement of £25M with Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited. This is described as "the largest settlement in the history of the collective proceedings regime in the UK". Full details on the boundary fares website - https://www.boundaryfares.com/Documents/Documents3. Note that the claims against other parties are continuing to trial, the first trial scheduled for June.

 

[renegademaster]

Whilst that's perhaps an understandable opinion to some, it's a gross misunderstanding of the way that common law, let alone consumer law, works in this context.

I would be very surprised if this didn't get at least some level of success, as they are making a very valid complaint.

What part of common law or consumer law says TOCs have to market the cheapest available ticket, genuine question?

 

[yorkie]

What part of common law or consumer law says TOCs have to market the cheapest available ticket, genuine question?

That sounds like a simple question, but the answers are actually potentially quite complex, and depend on the context.

However, it's not really a discussion point for this thread; feel free to create a new thread if you can't find the answers you seek in previous threads, which include:

"Impartial Retailing" - What is it? To whom does it apply?

I've heard the term "Impartial Retailing" bantered about on this forum. I think I have a fairly good idea of what it is, but would like to know if there is a precise definition, or "rule," regarding it that people must follow? Also, which outlets does it apply to - websites, ticket offices...

www.railforums.co.uk

Interpretation of "impartial retailing"

I am aware of the responsibilities on rail companies to retail impartially (unless they say that they only sell their own tickets through particular sales channels). How do others interpret the breadth of this responsibility? Does it extend to a "best advice" concept? I have read others...

www.railforums.co.uk

Impartial Retailing ...

Customer requests a Brighton to Oxford Circus (LU) single ticket to travel on a weekday after 12pm ... following the rules of impartial retailing correctly ... what ticket do you sell them ? ...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also from some documents you can find from carrying out a web search:

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre-docman/archive/408-2016-12-national-rail-mystery-shopping-survey-ticket-office/file.html

...partial retailing is defined to have taken place where the
retailing TOC issued a ticket with a route which was not appropriate to the scenario and
in doing so may have affected the earnings of other “carrier” TOCs who operate between
the same origin and destination...

(my opinion: the incorrect issuing from a named station, rather than from a Boundary Zone location, clearly has the same effect, and does affect the earnings of other carrier TOCs, not to mention potentially having an effect on passenger rights, and the price)

https://www.atoctravelagents.org/clientfiles/File/Q&A%202020.pdf

Q What Does Impartially and Accurately mean?
A Certain licenses are strictly for impartial retailing, and as a rule, B2C retailing needs to be impartial. This means based on the search
details given, Agents must advise customers on all the rail product that best meets their requirements. This must be done without
favouring the products of one operator over another. For example, it is not sufficient to display or offer just the cheapest options as
customers may, be more interested in a quicker but more expensive option, likewise it is not sufficient to simply offer the quickest
services. Results should be tailored though depending on the details given by the customer at the time of the enquiry, and an Agent
must provide the capability in their system that allows for this tailoring

(my opinion: if a Boundary Zone ticket is the rail product that best meets their requirements, this is an example of an instance when such a fare should be sold over and above a ticket from a named station)

Hopefully that makes things a bit clearer, but if not, or if any further debate is required, feel free to create a new thread, and link to/quote from any part(s) of any previous thread or other publication which are relevant to the further debate.