Out of date railcards: what should the policy be, and what measures could be taken to avoid problems in future?

[Brissle Girl]

Moderator note: Split from

Railcard Expired - £350 Fine! Help :((

I know there are loads of these so apologies in advance. As seen below I booked a trip from London to Lincoln. I did not realise my railcard was expired. When I have seen this happen before, normally you are made to repay the cost of the ticket. I am absolutely floored that there is a £150...

www.railforums.co.uk

Pushing back slightly on the criticism of LNER, the first instance was only a few days after the expiry date, but they were caught with a railcard that was over 3 months out of date. At what point does a careless mistake become (at the most charitable) a complete lack of responsibility in ensuring that they have an in date railcard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pushing back slightly on the criticism of LNER, the first instance was only a few days after the expiry date, but they were caught with a railcard that was over 3 months out of date. At what point does a careless mistake become (at the most charitable) a complete lack of responsibility in ensuring that they have an in date railcard?

When it's been pointed out that it's out of date. 20 odd years ago I managed about a month (travelling weekly at least) before it was pointed out by a helpful booking office clerk and renewed on the spot.

 

[BigCj34]

I was thinking there is an argument to buy at a ticket office and not have one's journey history preserved for all to see, it is to avoid a retrospective fine like this. But then a ticket office would ask to see a railcard in the first place...

 

[Pushpit]

Pushing back slightly on the criticism of LNER, the first instance was only a few days after the expiry date, but they were caught with a railcard that was over 3 months out of date. At what point does a careless mistake become (at the most charitable) a complete lack of responsibility in ensuring that they have an in date railcard?

At the point at which LNER would rather do a digital trawl after the event, rather than a digital trawl before travel. If they bothered to link specific railcards to specific tickets or retailing profiles then a message could pop up to the traveller "your railcard needs urgent renewal before travel". The first option gets them £350, the second option £15, so what does a customer focused organisation want to do?

 

[Brissle Girl]

When it's been pointed out that it's out of date. 20 odd years ago I managed about a month (travelling weekly at least) before it was pointed out by a helpful booking office clerk and renewed on the spot.

I think waiting for (if not relying on) someone else to point it out rather than making sure yourself is exactly a lack of responsibility. I guess you’re probably in the camp that when people turn up at an airport with invalid documents to travel it’s everyone else’s fault but the person themselves?

 

[Haywain]

At the point at which LNER would rather do a digital trawl after the event, rather than a digital trawl before travel. If they bothered to link specific railcards to specific tickets or retailing profiles then a message could pop up to the traveller "your railcard needs urgent renewal before travel".

You're now asking for a couple of extra steps in the retailing process that hardly any retailers offer, but that will be LNER's fault?

The first option gets them £350, the second option £15, so what does a customer focused organisation want to do?

Where are you getting £15 from?

 

[Pushpit]

Where are you getting £15 from?

The railcard was out of date by 4 months. The OP could already have renewed it last weekend, in view of the events, but the OP would then have benefited from travel for several months, 2 trips, without the railcard. So I'm speculating that is about £15 lost to the rail system due to this late renewal.

I'm not saying this is LNER's fault, but here we have a company willing and able to do one sort of digital trawl, but not one which in digital terms is very easy and inexpensive to do and would be customer friendly. Punitive approach being the preferred way forward.

 

[yorkie]

I was thinking there is an argument to buy at a ticket office and not have one's journey history preserved for all to see, it is to avoid a retrospective fine like this.

Or use a retailer that isn't going to divulge lots of detail to a TOC, at least not without a court order.

But then a ticket office would ask to see a railcard in the first place...

Back to the 'good old days' of ticket offices refusing to issue me all sorts of valid tickets for any reason they can think up, e.g. when buying a ticket for someone else, demanding I bring their railcard to the ticket office? And being told I can't buy a ticket for tomorrow because they've decided to only sell tickets for that day? No thanks! Of course, I respect other people have the right to a different view.

The railcard was out of date by 4 months. The OP could already have renewed it last weekend, in view of the events, but the OP would then have benefited from travel for several months, 2 trips, without the railcard. So I'm speculating that is about £15 lost to the rail system due to this late renewal.

The likes of LNER don't see it that way; they enjoy exaggerating the losses.

I'm not saying this is LNER's fault, but here we have a company willing and able to do one sort of digital trawl, but not one which in digital terms is very easy and inexpensive to do and would be customer friendly. Punitive approach being the preferred way forward.

Take a look at numerous other threads LNER are involved in lately, and you'll see a pattern. Admittedly they are not comparable to, or equivalent to, this case, but there are numerous things they are doing which are all indicative of the culture at LNER.

 

[Llanigraham]

How about people who have Railcards take some personal responsibility and keep their own records of the expiry date?

Or use a retailer that isn't going to divulge lots of detail to a TOC, at least not without a court order.

But that would need a change to the current GDPR legislation.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Or use a retailer that isn't going to divulge lots of detail to a TOC, at least not without a court order.

Do they exist? I assumed that to be an accredited retailer you have to agree to disclose this type of information if requested.

 

[yorkie]

How about people who have Railcards take some personal responsibility and keep their own records of the expiry date?

I'm all for that, but how about the consequences being proportional?

But that would need a change to the current GDPR legislation.

Does GDPR compel a retailer to divulge all the data held on a given customer, without any court warrant/order?

Also, it is very common for people to purchase tickets on behalf of others; I do it on a regular basis and there was indeed a time when the majority of tickets I bought were for others. A good solicitor would be able to defend against any TOC who claimed that all purchases must be for the purchaser.

 

[Watershed]

But that would need a change to the current GDPR legislation.

No change at all is needed. The GDPR makes it lawful for a retailer to share data with train companies to avoid and detect crime (amongst other things) - but it does not oblige them to do so.

 

[superkopite]

How about people who have Railcards take some personal responsibility and keep their own records of the expiry date?

This is such a typical "railway" attitude to take. Any industry that is genuinely trying to grow its customer base goes out of its way to make life easier for its customers, rather than more difficult and punitive. If it wanted to, the industry TISs could make very simple changes that would render the majority of the "saved expired railcard" issues we see on these boards redunant.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

1. Extend the “forgot your Railcard once” courtesy to include out-of-date Railcards.

2. Implement the simple UI fixes that have been discussed on this forum eight gazillion times in ticket selling apps.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm all for that, but how about the consequences being proportional?

I know comparisons are not liked here, butI if I don't renew my car insurance I risk having the car taken off me and destroyed, prosecuted and points added to my licence.
So why shouldn't people who can't take some responsibility for not renewing their Railcard be treated in the same way?

Does GDPR compel a retailer to divulge all the data held on a given customer, without any court warrant/order?

For the purposes of crime investigation, if requested, yes.

 

[Fermiboson]

How about people who have Railcards take some personal responsibility and keep their own records of the expiry date?

You know how we have signals and automatic tripcocks and such that stop a train from SPADing even if the driver for some reason doesn’t stop? Maybe the driver should take some personal responsibility instead.

Anyways, this is not a moral debate. The point is that it is well within the railway’s capability, and maybe it would even lighten their workload, to institute railcard reminder systems, the need to enter railcard number when purchasing tickets (will also kill fake railcards), etc. and their choice not to do so is bad customer service, which means less customers and angrier customers, which is bad for the railway.

 

[yorkie]

I know comparisons are not liked here, butI if I don't renew my car insurance I risk having the car taken off me and destroyed, prosecuted and points added to my licence.
So why shouldn't people who can't take some responsibility for not renewing their Railcard be treated in the same way?

This is a false equivalence.

For the purposes of crime investigation, if requested, yes.

If requested by the police, but not simply by a TOC.

Furthermore, evidence of purchase is not evidence of use by the purchaser.

 

[Watershed]

For the purposes of crime investigation, if requested, yes.

Perhaps you could help us by citing the relevant section of the GDPR?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think waiting for (if not relying on) someone else to point it out rather than making sure yourself is exactly a lack of responsibility. I guess you’re probably in the camp that when people turn up at an airport with invalid documents to travel it’s everyone else’s fault but the person themselves?

It's their fault, but because people make mistakes I'd like to see airlines handle it in a friendly and helpful manner, such as rebooking for free to the next available flight and providing advice on the most expedious method of resolving the issue. That's what a professional organisation that cares about customer experience does.

Will Ryanair do that? No. But that's because Ryanair are a contemptible organisation - does the railway really want that reputation?

I know comparisons are not liked here, butI if I don't renew my car insurance I risk having the car taken off me and destroyed, prosecuted and points added to my licence.
So why shouldn't people who can't take some responsibility for not renewing their Railcard be treated in the same way?

Cars are treated much more seriously than trains because you can kill someone with your car or seriously damage their property. Thus they are incomparable.

2. Implement the simple UI fixes that have been discussed on this forum eight gazillion times in ticket selling apps.

This. There are absolutely loads of options.

I just thought of another one - require entering a Railcard number and date of expiry before an e-ticket can be downloaded if one isn't stored on the app. (It doesn't need to be verifiable, just make the passenger look at it and check the date they entered would be valid for the ticket - and warn if it'd be valid partially e.g. not until expiry of a period return).

Furthermore, if the passenger enters garbage data, they've just provided the railway added evidence of fraud - so better for catching the genuine liars too.

 

[superkopite]

I know comparisons are not liked here, butI if I don't renew my car insurance I risk having the car taken off me and destroyed, prosecuted and points added to my licence.
So why shouldn't people who can't take some responsibility for not renewing their Railcard be treated in the same way?

I dare say comparisons like this are why comparisons are not liked here

 

[Watershed]

I just thought of another one - require entering a Railcard number and date of expiry before an e-ticket can be downloaded if one isn't stored on the app. (It doesn't need to be verifiable, just make the passenger look at it and check the date they entered would be valid for the ticket - and warn if it'd be valid partially e.g. not until expiry of a period return).

Indeed. Or even just an expiry date - that way, if a false date is entered, you have evidence that the passenger knew they didn't hold a valid Railcard.

This would have the dual effect of preventing almost all honest mistakes and giving TOCs strong evidence to pursue a fraud prosecution against those who falsify the date.

 

[Fermiboson]

I just thought of another one - require entering a Railcard number and date of expiry before an e-ticket can be downloaded if one isn't stored on the app. (It doesn't need to be verifiable, just make the passenger look at it and check the date they entered would be valid for the ticket - and warn if it'd be valid partially e.g. not until expiry of a period return).

Furthermore, if the passenger enters garbage data, they've just provided the railway added evidence of fraud - so better for catching the genuine liars too.

Since e-railcards can be scanned on trains by guards, I imagine it wouldn’t be too hard for a centralised system to check at least that the railcard number is valid. It also doesn’t take too much effort to introduce a check code if it comes to it, hell, some universities do it for student cards and even library cards.

And for the convenience aspect, one already has to get out the credit card to enter its details, so there is really no argument for not bothering to get out another document which is essential for travel.

Indeed. Or even just an expiry date - that way, if a false date is entered, you have evidence that the passenger knew they didn't hold a valid Railcard.

This would have the dual effect of preventing almost all honest mistakes and giving TOCs strong evidence to pursue a fraud prosecution against those who falsify the date.

Expiry date only has the disadvantage that it’s hard to distinguish between typos and genuine lying. Whereas if the railcard number is random gibberish it’s very clear you’re lying, and if it’s just say one letter off it’s much more likely to be a typo. Moreover, people feel that they remember expiry dates off their mind, so this wouldn’t encourage them to actually get out their railcard and check.

When I order things on my phone, often I enter my credit card CVV wrong because of the size of the phone keyboard. If someone accused me of fraud every time that happens, my family would probably have been bankrupted several times already.

 

[superkopite]

And for the convenience aspect, one already has to get out the credit card to enter its details, so there is really no argument for not bothering to get out another document which is essential for travel.

In the last 5 years I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to "get out the credit card to enter its details" that is simply not how online retailing works anymore

 

[Fermiboson]

In the last 5 years I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to "get out the credit card to enter its details" that is simply not how online retailing works anymore

I don’t know about your experience, but in mine even if I do trust the browser enough to save my credit card details on it, website autofill forms often fill the wrong fields or simply do not work.

 

[superkopite]

Since e-railcards can be scanned on trains by guards, I imagine it wouldn’t be too hard for a centralised system to check at least that the railcard number is valid. It also doesn’t take too much effort to introduce a check code if it comes to it, hell, some universities do it for student cards and even library cards.

This would actually be a lot harder than you imagine, there are much easier ways to implement these checks at the point of purchase without being budernsom to the end user

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the last 5 years I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to "get out the credit card to enter its details" that is simply not how online retailing works anymore

And nor would you have to do that when buying a ticket if you stored those details in the app/website just like you might your card details. The key is that the app can't issue a discounted ticket without knowing the basis of the discount and whether it's expired or not.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Or use a retailer that isn't going to divulge lots of detail to a TOC, at least not without a court order.

I wonder what is the forums ticket sites position on this is? Are they going to refuse details when requested by a toc except when a court order is made?

 

[superkopite]

The key is that the app can't issue a discounted ticket without knowing the basis of the discount and whether it's expired or not.

Agreed, this is a big part of the issue. If the people on these boards are to be believed, a vast number of these issues are caused by the retailing app automatically applying a railcard it knows to be expired to an order

 

[Fermiboson]

This would actually be a lot harder than you imagine, there are much easier ways to implement these checks at the point of purchase without being budernsom to the end user

Do enlighten me. (Not saying this in a condescending way, genuinely curious)

 

[superkopite]

Do enlighten me. (Not saying this in a condescending way, genuinely curious)

Apologies, I misread your original post. Having reread and properly understood, it is possible and may even be in the makings, but I dare say is a few years off yet.