EMR MML services on Sundays too crowded - what should be done?

[richieb1971]

Well perhaps if the government wakes up or hands the reigns back. Or maybe a change of government , but who knows.

So If I am reading this correctly, the EMR/SWR and all other over crowded services are working within the government tollerances? And some PR guy sits behind a desk all day writing responses to customer complaints that he/she is fully aware of but can do nothing about it?

Taken from the RMT website:

"Train company bosses take little risk with their capital but have benefited from profits before tax, of 126% of the capital invested by rail operators. 65% of profits are locked away in shareholder dividends instead of being redistributed into improving the railway or upping workers wages and improving conditions.22 Jul 2023"

So is this government protecting shareholders? If so, should we expect a future where humans are transported like cattle? I'm not sure I like the model on which the railway runs at the moment. I'm sure there is a better balance than 65% dividend vs packed out trains.

 

[RT4038]

So If I am reading this correctly, the EMR/SWR and all other over crowded services are working within the government tollerances? And some PR guy sits behind a desk all day writing responses to customer complaints that he/she is fully aware of but can do nothing about it?

Taken from a google search

"Train company bosses take little risk with their capital but have benefited from profits before tax, of 126% of the capital invested by rail operators. 65% of profits are locked away in shareholder dividends instead of being redistributed into improving the railway or upping workers wages and improving conditions.22 Jul 2023"

So is this government protecting shareholders? If so, should we expect a future where humans are transported like cattle? I'm not sure I like the model on which the railway runs at the moment. I'm sure there is a better balance than 65% dividend vs packed out trains.

What risks can train company bosses take? Risks have to be balanced with reward, they are in control of little, and as soon as they qualify for any reward everyone starts complaining and wants the rewards reduced.. As the rail operators have very little capital invested in the business (the trains, the stations, the track are not theirs) 126% of not much is still not much.

So is this government protecting shareholders? If so, should we expect a future where humans are transported like cattle? I'm not sure I like the model on which the railway runs at the moment. I'm sure there is a better balance than 65% dividend vs packed out trains.

The government is in control of how much rolling stock is available, how much track capacity is available and what the fares are. They are also in control of what tax receipts are spent on and what the level of tax is. The train companies are merely middle men/women operating within those confines, by and large.

 

[richieb1971]

The government is in control of how much rolling stock is available, how much track capacity is available and what the fares are. They are also in control of what tax receipts are spent on and what the level of tax is. The train companies are merely middle men/women operating within those confines, by and large.

Well, then the balance is wrong and the government are too far away to see the problems.

We will put it to rest. I rarely go north on the railway and changing at Kettering just adds a little more restraint on our parts, having to deal with a overcrowded train on top of that is insulting.

A few years ago me and my family went to Birmingham and decided to take the train from Northampton to New Street. It was Xmas time for shopping etc and it was a Sunday. As the platforms started to overcrowd, they brought in another 4 car unit to make it 8. I don't know if thats normal or exception but having continguency, keeping your eye on the situation and making amends is how the railway should be ran.

Profit from standing passengers on inter city services is not proper. Regardless of who is in control, running a skeleton system will hurt the reputation of the railway in the long run.

In retrospect, the 222's should have been built in numbers to replace the whole HST fleet. Because this offset 2 tier system hasn't worked out too well has it?

 

[DarloRich]

When things will get better?

When the Government decides it needs to get better AND are prepared to spend the money to make it better. That date is unknown. Could be next year, could be 10 years. This isn't a new situation and nor is it limited to railways.

EDIT - there will be an improvement when the new trains come on stream but not enough imo.

they brought in another 4 car unit to make it 8. I don't know if thats normal or exception but having continguency, keeping your eye on the situation and making amends is how the railway should be ran.

you can only do that if you have spare trains, which EMR don't. Most companies don't. I suspect what you are describing was a planned attachment at Northampton where the LNWR depot is.

Profit from standing passengers on inter city services is not proper. Regardless of who is in control, running a skeleton system will hurt the reputation of the railway in the long run.

It isn't a skeleton service by any definition. What you mean is a service without the capacity to meet the demand.

Because this offset 2 tier system hasn't worked out too well has it?

What offset 2 tier system? Can you expand?

In retrospect, the 222's should have been built in numbers to replace the whole HST fleet

Removing the HST without direct replacement is part of the problem with EMR ( as with Cross Country) but that is what you get for voting for 15 years of the same party in power.

 

[QSK19]

Removing the HST without direct replacement is part of the problem with EMR ( as with Cross Country) but that is what you get for voting for 15 years of the same party in power.

Let’s see if Labour can do any better then. I doubt it though - parties are full of hot air and promises in the run up to elections and then renege on them after coming into government knowing that they won’t be kicked out for at least 5 years (or whenever the PM decides to call the election).

The problem with Labour is that they’ll probably win such a huge majority that they can be as complacent as they want yet they’ll still be in power for at least a decade. What’s their incentive to deliver anything once they’re in such a strong position politically?

Labour, Conservative or a coalition, it won’t change a thing - EMR’s insufficient stock situation will carry on regardless of which government is in power.

 

[richieb1971]

Strong words there. Are any railway people involved in big decisions?

 

[DarloRich]

Let’s see if Labour can do any better then. I doubt it though

I doubt it - not from cynicism but from reality. We are skint& all our public services are dying.

Are any railway people involved in big decisions?

What are "railway people"? The operators like LNER have lots of "railway people" inside them as do the DfT.

 

[QSK19]

Strong words there. Are any railway people involved in big decisions?

If your reply was aimed at me (there was no quote attached), yes they are indeed very strong words; however it’s worth saying that, on a railways level, I don’t favour any party. I always say that, at a GE, you’re voting for whomever you think is the best of a bad bunch. I highly doubt a change of government will achieve much in terms of improving EMR and the MML fundamentally.

In terms of “railway people”, given that the DfT and Treasury make the decisions which involve spend, I doubt that “railway people” would be too involved. Groups like TfEM can be consulted and TOCs are paid to run day-to-day operational matters; however the DfT and Treasury are kings when it comes to big decisions.

 

[RT4038]

Strong words there. Are any railway people involved in big decisions?

The point where 'railway people' will have little influence is on whether to spend on railways or other parts of Government expenditure. The Treasury / politicians have to weigh up these proportions.

 

[bramling]

I doubt it - not from cynicism but from reality. We are skint& all our public services are dying.

Agreed. And Labour’s record from their last term isn’t exactly glowing - they only sorted out Railtrack under duress, no growth franchises like ATW and Northern, and of course the PPP fiasco which managed to wreck London Underground.

Right leg or left leg amputated?

What are "railway people"? The operators like LNER have lots of "railway people" inside them as do the DfT.

One wonders how many of the people in the DFT have ever got close to actually running and operating a railway, or for that matter even using one. They seem to hold passengers in contempt.

 

[richieb1971]

So why are 5 car 810s replacing 222s?

Whats wrong with maxing out the train lengths?

 

[MCR247]

So why are 5 car 810s replacing 222s?

Whats wrong with maxing out the train lengths?

Short answer? Like most things, money. Both in the sense of the upfront costs of a bigger build, building a new depot to cope with them etc, and also that a non-insignificant amount of services likely won’t need 10 car 802s.

 

[43066]

The point where 'railway people' will have little influence is on whether to spend on railways or other parts of Government expenditure. The Treasury / politicians have to weigh up these proportions.

It isn’t just a case of spending decisions, but also attitude and approach. For example the government making the choice to abandon the current confrontational and antagonistic approach to industrial relations, and engaging properly with unions and other stakeholders, will be the key to resolving a lot of the industry’s current issues - including the smooth introduction of new fleets.

The signs (based on experiences in Wales and Scotland) are that Labour would be more open to such an approach.

So why are 5 car 810s replacing 222s?

Whats wrong with maxing out the train lengths?

Because five cars are sufficient for most off peak trains, and can be doubled up to tens for peak services, while still fitting into the shorter than ideal St Pancras platforms. The denser seating layout means a five car 810 will have more seats than a seven car meridian.

 

[richieb1971]

Because five cars are sufficient for most off peak trains, and can be doubled up to tens for peak services, while still fitting into the shorter than ideal St Pancras platforms. The denser seating layout means a five car 810 will have more seats than a seven car meridian.

I'm all for 810's to be brought into service ASAP. There are apparently 27 sets of Meridians on the MML and 33 sets of 810's being built. Does this mean once they come out there will not only be more seats per train, but extra flexibility with the extra 6 sets? I mean, will they run longer trains where necessary or try different diagrams or just exercise 5 car formations and take the risk of a few customer complaints?

Unversal Studios phase 1 has started now with plans already out there with markers for the Transport hubs. From the north Bedford will be a changing point if that goes ahead. Sundays will be big days then. Obviously a conversation for another day but the 810's will still be in service when and if that goes ahead. Just a thought because decisions made today heavily affect tomorrow. Pic below shows official map, cropped so you can read it.

 

[yorksrob]

It isn’t just a case of spending decisions, but also attitude and approach. For example the government making the choice to abandon the current confrontational and antagonistic approach to industrial relations, and engaging properly with unions and other stakeholders, will be the key to resolving a lot of the industry’s current issues - including the smooth introduction of new fleets.

Absolutely. The financial situation may be dire, but there are still more nuanced differences to approach that could yield benefits for passengers.

Off the top of my head a couple of examples:

- Have revenue go back to the industry rather than treasury so it can grow the business.
- Negotiate T's & C's separately from wage rises.

 

[A0wen]

I'm all for 810's to be brought into service ASAP. There are apparently 27 sets of Meridians on the MML and 33 sets of 810's being built. Does this mean once they come out there will not only be more seats per train, but extra flexibility with the extra 6 sets? I mean, will they run longer trains where necessary or try different diagrams or just exercise 5 car formations and take the risk of a few customer complaints?

Unversal Studios phase 1 has started now with plans already out there with markers for the Transport hubs. From the north Bedford will be a changing point if that goes ahead. Sundays will be big days then. Obviously a conversation for another day but the 810's will still be in service when and if that goes ahead. Just a thought because decisions made today heavily affect tomorrow. Pic below shows official map, cropped so you can read it.

View attachment 156285

I think you're *massively* overestimating the numbers who will travel to Universal Bedford (if it happens) by rail.

You need only to look at Alton Towers, Thorpe Park, Chessington, Legoland and even Euro Disney to see the demand to arrive by rail isn't huge.

 

[richieb1971]

I think you're *massively* overestimating the numbers who will travel to Universal Bedford (if it happens) by rail.

You need only to look at Alton Towers, Thorpe Park, Chessington, Legoland and even Euro Disney to see the demand to arrive by rail isn't huge.

The fact that 3 airports and 1 international train station in London are easily linked. With a capture area of the whole of Europe with 2 train stations either side of the park. It's a selling point whether it gets used or not.

Of course in universal japan the train goes right into the park and was jam packed when I were on it.

I don't see universal any different from an airport station. If you want to visit from Europe for a weekend you will fly and train it. North ukers will likely drive.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think you're *massively* overestimating the numbers who will travel to Universal Bedford (if it happens) by rail.

You need only to look at Alton Towers, Thorpe Park, Chessington, Legoland and even Euro Disney to see the demand to arrive by rail isn't huge.

None of those are near public transport except maybe Chessington

 

[43066]

The fact that 3 airports and 1 international train station in London are easily linked. With a capture area of the whole of Europe with 2 train stations either side of the park. It's a selling point whether it gets used or not.

Of course in universal japan the train goes right into the park and was jam packed when I were on it.

I don't see universal any different from an airport station. If you want to visit from Europe for a weekend you will fly and train it. North ukers will likely drive.

Yes indeed. You can certainly imagine people flying into Luton Airport and connecting by train. It’s likely to impact Thameslink more than EMR, though, unless (God forbid) they end up stopping 360s additionally at the new station.

 

[A0wen]

None of those are near public transport except maybe Chessington

There used to be a direct bus link from Stoke station to Alton Towers, Thorpe Park is less than 2 miles from Chertsey station, Legoland's under 3 miles from either Windsor station and last time I checked Euro Disney had a station.

The fact that 3 airports and 1 international train station in London are easily linked. With a capture area of the whole of Europe with 2 train stations either side of the park. It's a selling point whether it gets used or not.

Of course in universal japan the train goes right into the park and was jam packed when I were on it.

I don't see universal any different from an airport station. If you want to visit from Europe for a weekend you will fly and train it. North ukers will likely drive.

Well, if you compare WDW Orlando with Universal Orlando, WDW Magic Kingdom had 17m visitors in 2022 compared to 11m for Universal's Islands of Adventure.

EuroDisney attracts about 9m visitors - so I'd be very surprised if Universal attracted more than 2/3rds of that. And EuroDisney is no longer served directly by Eurostar.

Universal's parks don't have the draw of Disney - that's a fact. And theme parks tend not to fare well in the UK because they rely on half decent weather which is not a given.

People in the UK will drive to it because it is far more convenient - and Thameslink will almost certainly have sufficient capacity for visitors arriving at Universal Bedford from either central London or Luton / Gatwick airports.

 

[richieb1971]

There used to be a direct bus link from Stoke station to Alton Towers, Thorpe Park is less than 2 miles from Chertsey station, Legoland's under 3 miles from either Windsor station and last time I checked Euro Disney had a station.

Most of those places have equivalents in other countries nearby. Universal studios does not. Universal has worldwide appeal, just like Buckingham Palace, tower bridge and big Ben.

Besides 2500 folk will be employees that's a lot of traffic before any customers turn up.

I only brought up universal as concerned the diagrams require 3 trains from market Harborough and further north that is a bit rubbish.

And the 810 delivery numbers play into that.

 

[Kite159]

There used to be a direct bus link from Stoke station to Alton Towers, Thorpe Park is less than 2 miles from Chertsey station, Legoland's under 3 miles from either Windsor station and last time I checked Euro Disney had a station.

Still is a bus link between Alton Towers & Stoke station, the 32A which runs extra services when Alton Towers is open (otherwise a single round trip a day)

Legoland is served by at least 2 buses an hour, 1 direct from central London.

 

[richieb1971]

Every country I go to, I always look for the train connectivity if I have no car or no desire to drive in said country. Because catching a train in a foreign land is quite easy to navigate around with. Getting a bus in France was a headache for me, getting a bus in Japan was a headache. But the trains, easy peasy.

If train stations to parks were right beside them, their footfall would increase in my opinion, its just an opinion. I Certainly would go to Universal in any European country if I could go from airport/train to destination without hitting a road. Even Amsterdam was great, with its tram system. I did use the bus in Hong Kong though.

Anyway, I heard from the grapevine from someone who went to the Universal consultation that Wixams was getting 4 platforms. I Cannot confirm it and its contrary to reports i've seen on here that its getting only 2 platforms. But if true, it certainly changes things. With EMR potentially making it a stopper from the north. I mean if I were EMR i'd want a piece of that action. Its whether or not they have the capacity to support it comfortably or not. I mean, it sort of makes sense the transport hub is quite big on the diagram. I'd assume EMR's current contract would potentially be expired when and if the park happens, but i'd expect the fleet of 810's to be less than half way through their service life at that time.

 

[A0wen]

Besides 2500 folk will be employees that's a lot of traffic before any customers turn up.

2500 is peanuts - it's less than either Network Rail or Santander have in their Central Milton Keynes offices.

Every country I go to, I always look for the train connectivity if I have no car or no desire to drive in said country. Because catching a train in a foreign land is quite easy to navigate around with. Getting a bus in France was a headache for me, getting a bus in Japan was a headache. But the trains, easy peasy.

Large swathes of rural France don't have rail connections or have solely rail replacement buses, so you've consciously limited your scope for visits. That said, I fail to understand why getting a bus is difficult but a train is "easy peasy".

Anyway, I heard from the grapevine from someone who went to the Universal consultation that Wixams was getting 4 platforms. I Cannot confirm it and its contrary to reports i've seen on here that its getting only 2 platforms. But if true, it certainly changes things. With EMR potentially making it a stopper from the north. I mean if I were EMR i'd want a piece of that action. Its whether or not they have the capacity to support it comfortably or not. I mean, it sort of makes sense the transport hub is quite big on the diagram. I'd assume EMR's current contract would potentially be expired when and if the park happens, but i'd expect the fleet of 810's to be less than half way through their service life at that time.

I'd ignore the grapevine until there was something more credible - one or two posters on here count as credible.

That said, I can't see EMR stopping Sheffield or Nottingham services at Wixams even with Universal. Luton Airport Parkway would be a high priority and more useful, so then you'd be looking at the Corby's - which isn't worth it as it would slow down the London journey time (again) for Wellingborough and Corby.

 

[richieb1971]

I sincerely believe the railway should be as close to the prime mover of park visiters as possible and it should promote itself as so. As a resident of Bedford and a user of the Midland Mainline and a future user of EWR I will state my concerns as so. If the railway takes less than 5% of the traffic it will cripple the road systems around Bedford. I want the park, but not at any expense.

FYI, Bedford is the Bitcoin hub of Europe, although this is currently in early stages, but attracts lots of foreign investors already packing out our hotels. Bedford is getting a brand new Movie studio right next to Universal studios - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-66597244

And now Universal Studios. How much more expansion of our town will be needed to cripple our road network? It makes sense if all these things are in one place that connectivity by train is unprecedented. Especially since the stations are very close to them on what will be very busy lines.

 

[Wolfie]

They are very much in a situation of their own making. They knew they needed more stock when they got rid of the HST's. They knew they needed more stock when they got rid of the 180's. They know they need more stock when they get the 810's. And they know there will be less seats on the 810 fleet than the former 222 + HST fleet.

This is just what you get when you have no competition during a franchise award.

Of course DfT (and HMT) who provide the resources played no part in those decisions.....NOT!

 

[43066]

As a resident of Bedford and a user of the Midland Mainline and a future user of EWR I will state my concerns as so. If the railway takes less than 5% of the traffic it will cripple the road systems around Bedford. I want the park, but not at any expense

Presumably the intention is that much of the new road traffic will come off the M1 and straight into the car park, rather than clogging up the local road network.

 

[richieb1971]

Of course DfT (and HMT) who provide the resources played no part in those decisions.....NOT!

On this subject, I did mention a 2 tier setup earlier than I didn't respond to Darlorich because he already answered the question. What I meant was 1970's stock running alongside 222's built in the 90's?

If one set of stock is retired leaving just the newer stock, that creates a problem potentially with seating capacity on whats left.

So when the 810's are introduced will the 222's remain on the MML in some capacity?

Presumably the intention is that much of the new road traffic will come off the M1 and straight into the car park, rather than clogging up the local road network.

Yes and quite a lot of will come from the East, go straight past Bedford which is used as a Bypass. If the car parks back up thats one side of the A421 that is blocked. I guess means of access is paramount but there isn't much of a slip road in the diagram. These are already busy roads as it is. The length of a slip road will determine the spillage onto the main road.

 

[Wolfie]

On this subject, I did mention a 2 tier setup earlier than I didn't respond to Darlorich because he already answered the question. What I meant was 1970's stock running alongside 222's built in the 90's?

If one set of stock is retired leaving just the newer stock, that creates a problem potentially with seating capacity on whats left.

So when the 810's are introduced will the 222's remain on the MML in some capacity?


Yes and quite a lot of will come from the East, go straight past Bedford which is used as a Bypass. If the car parks back up thats one side of the A421 that is blocked. I guess means of access is paramount but there isn't much of a slip road in the diagram. These are already busy roads as it is. The length of a slip road will determine the spillage onto the main road.

There are no plans for any of the 222s to be retained by EMR once the 810s enter service.

 

[A0wen]

Presumably the intention is that much of the new road traffic will come off the M1 and straight into the car park, rather than clogging up the local road network.

Exactly that.

The A421 is dual carriageway from Jnc 13 of the M1 to Black Cat Roundabout on the A1. All that will be needed are links from the A421 - there is no practical need for visitors to Universal to head into Bedford, any more than vistors to Alton Towers go into Stoke or Hanley, Drayton Manor visitors into Tamworth or Thorpe Park visitors into Chertsey.