I took the Elizabeth line from Heathrow airport to zone 4. With a zone 1-6 travelcard. I didn’t touch out at the zone 4 station and it charged me £12. This has never happened with a travelcard before and as far as I’m aware it’s never been a requirement to touch in or out if you have a valid travelcard for the zones you’re travelling from and to. So is a zones 1-6 travel card valid to/from Heathrow Elizabeth line or does it command a premium even with a travelcard?
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Is a zone 1-6 travelcard valid from Heathrow Elizabeth line
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redreni
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With what kind of card did you touch in? An Oyster card with a weekly or longer Z1-6 travelcard on it?
Oyster card with an annual Zones 1-6 travelcard loaded on it.
redreni
Established Member
I would certainly ask TfL for your money back and for an explanation.
My first thought was maybe it's to do with Heathrow Express, but I suspect they'd have taken more than £12 if that were the case.
At the Heathrow end the Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express share a gateline, so the only way they can identify if you've used Heathrow Express would be whether or not you tap out at the Heathrow Express gateline at Paddington, which you obviously didn't. But whether the system might be set up to take money first and ask questions later if people don't tap out at all, I don't know.
Does the journey history facility show what has actually been charged? Is the the maximum charge because the barriers also service Heathrow Express services?
Possibly but Heathrow express would cost a lot more than £12.10 which is what it charged me.
£12.20 is the Elizabeth Line Pay As You Go Single fare between Heathrow and Paddington, so my guess would be that's what TfL have set as the maximum fare if you don't touch out, even with a Travelcard Season loaded.
You should be able to request a refund online, though I believe there's a limit as to how many times you can do so on a self-service basis.
You should be able to request a refund online, though I believe there's a limit as to how many times you can do so on a self-service basis.
I thought there’s no requirement to touch out with a travelcard. Has this been changed?
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redreni
Established Member
Good question. And if it has changed, what steps has TfL taken to tell Travelcard holders?
You were travelling to zone 4 on this occasion, but you might equally well have been going somewhere outside the PAYG area (e.g. Oxford, changing at Hayes & Harlington and Slough or Reading) on a paper extension ticket and thus might have had no reasonable opportunity to touch out within the zones covered by your travelcard.
Condition 3.7 of the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services" (available to download from https://nre.co.uk/nrcot or https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-and-conditions/ticketing-and-travel-conditions-of-carriage) states:
Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services said:
So whilst it's not strictly required, I'd suggest that it's good practice to do so, particularly when making a journey where a special fare may apply (e.g. travelling from Heathrow, given the premium that applies for Heathrow Express) to prevent such issues.
redreni
Established Member
Should is not must, and sometimes it won't be possible.
Even people only going as far as Iver or Langley would have to use an extension ticket (in whatever format) in conjunction with their Oyster Travelcard, since Oyster is not valid past West Drayton. Unless of course TfL thinks they have to get off the train at West Drayton to tap out and then tap back in again on contactless, by which time the train has gone?
Not as far as I'm aware. Is your travelcard still valid?
Yes it’s an annual travelcard valid until 2025. As others have mentioned, it shouldn’t charge as it is perfectly possible to touch in at Heathrow and use a paper extension to travel beyond the London zones where there will be nowhere to touch out. Screenshot of the journey made and fare charged and travelcard attached.
The only way I can see that charging a maximum fare would be justified is if TfL have introduced a requirement to touch in and out for every journey for travelcard holders and a requirement to touch out at the last station your travelcard is valid at and re-enter the system using your paper extension, in cases where you travel beyond your zones using a paper extension. Then the national rail conditions of carriage would also need to be changed to reflect this.
Am I missing something here?
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miklcct
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This ought to be escalated. What if you want to travel to Shenfield with a paper extension? It will then become impossible to touch out in this situation.
It's nonsense; passengers are entitled to use a Travelcard in conjunction with another ticket (such as a Boundary Zone extension, or a ticket from a named station), to travel outside the relevant Zones, without any requirement for the train calling at any intermediate point.
This wouldn't be an acceptable contractual term. I suspect this is an oversight by TfL. If it is a deliberate act, then they are potentially risking gertting themselves into legal bother (see the Boundary Zone legal case!).
For the time being, let's assume it's a mistake/oversight on TfL's part. Hopefully they will refund the money and amend the programming accordingly!
Haywain
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All touch information will go through TfL's system - it makes no difference who owns/operates/manages the barriers.
redreni
Established Member
Anyone care to speculate on what would happen if there was no or insufficient PAYG credit on the card to cover the maximum fare?
I may be out of date, but my understanding was this would cause the Travelcard to be suspended until the 'debt' (that TfL would have conjured up out of thin air) had been paid?
The practical upshot of which could easily be that you board a train at an ungated station the next morning, encounter an RPI and get Penalty Fared or prosecuted. This strikes me as untenable!
I did end up in negative PAYG credit. And when I went to touch in through the barriers at my local station (covered by my travelcard) the next day, it would not let me so I had to top up to cover the negative value.
Under the condition of carriage, you cannot travel on a negative balance even if you have a travelcard.
OK. I'm asking questions about this with TfL. My guess is that something has changed at the Heathrow gateline and the consequences haven't been thought through.
@ten7 Have they processed the refund yet? Are they sending it to your bank? If not, call them up and ask them to change it. If you have zones 1-6 you may never use the credit and it will be locked away until the end of your travelcard. That's not ideal, obviously.
Yes they put it back as PAYG credit onto the oyster. Occasionally I travel beyond the zones on oyster on national rail so that’s fine as long as the credit doesn’t disappear after some time.
It won't disappear, so if you're happy then alls good.
Can you recall what the explanation for the charge was? It would be good to push them to explain it properly, and as you're the person who suffered, you're in the best position. Enquire what would happen if you do the same thing again?
There wasnt really an explanation. Just an acknowledgement and refund. But I will query with them.
Update 08/06
TfL’s response was “It is a requirement to tap in and out ofALL journey's, every time.”
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redreni
Established Member
*Sigh*
Entirely up to you if you want to keep going back and forth until you get a proper answer.
Maybe start by telling them you intend to go from Heathrow to Langley? Ask them what you should do then?
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I’ve replied back that that’s not consistent with the conditions of carriage and you physically can’t if using a paper extension.
Or any journey. Whenever I travel on the national rail network, I always buy extension tickets so how am I meant to tap out? I’ve asked that.
I don’t think they can answer. The barriers at Heathrow are clearly programmed in a way that not tapping out charges a maximum fare regardless of what ticket you have on Oyster.
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Which is wrong. I forget who said it, but a travelcard is a travelcard regardless of which medium it is stored on. PAYG credit should not be involved if the tap(s) are within the area covered by the travelcard, unless the journey is deemed to have left the zones covered (eg Heathrow to Upminster with a zone 4-6 weekly travelcard).
I'm still waiting for a response to my query which I'll chase next week.
I’ve tried multiple times. They can’t answer. Other than to say you must tap in and out every time. And to check the TfL single fare finds for the correct fare.
So basically you have to take the maximum fare and then call them up and request a refund.
Is it worth raising this with London Travelwatch?
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Yes, definitely.
TfL aren't a good organisation to deal with, and lack people with the required level of knowledge. They are not exactly known for being customer focused and trying to get through to someone who understands anything other than the most basic concepts can be challenging.
LTW do have some pretty clued up people who may be interested in pursuing this.
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