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Gobowen (GOB) to Hayes & Harlington (HAY) route High Wycombe

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0B00

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Doing the above trip on Friday 19/7 returning Monday 22/7. 'BR Fares' show a £55.90 Off Peak return and £41.35 Super Off Peak return (with DSB railcard), route High Wycombe. These fares have been around for years IIRC but I cannot seem to get any TOC website to show the fare to buy. Any ideas anyone please?
 
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Haywain

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Doing the above trip on Friday 19/7 returning Monday 22/7. 'BR Fares' show a £55.90 Off Peak return and £41.35 Super Off Peak return (with DSB railcard), route High Wycombe. These fares have been around for years IIRC but I cannot seem to get any TOC website to show the fare to buy. Any ideas anyone please?
Try using the forum site and select via points of Shrewsbury and High Wycombe.
 

MarlowDonkey

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Doing the above trip on Friday 19/7 returning Monday 22/7. 'BR Fares' show a £55.90 Off Peak return and £41.35 Super Off Peak return (with DSB railcard), route High Wycombe. These fares have been around for years IIRC but I cannot seem to get any TOC website to show the fare to buy. Any ideas anyone please?
How would you get from High Wycombe to Hayes & Harlington? The Wycombe to Bourne End section of the branch line to Maidenhead closed in 1970. An obvious route is to carry on to Marylebone, Bakerloo to Paddinton and then Elizabeth. But you would need a "via London" ticket. The direct if very slow route would be High Wycombe to West Ruislip, Central Line to Greenford, GWR to West Ealing, Elizabeth to Hayes.

I would have thought a route via Reading makes more sense.
 

paul1609

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According to BR Fares the route is actually "+via high wycombe & Shrewsbury" so they would be valid via Marylebone and Paddington. This is presumably to differentiate them from the more expensive route "+via London" valid on VWC in to Euston.
 

Watershed

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How would you get from High Wycombe to Hayes & Harlington? The Wycombe to Bourne End section of the branch line to Maidenhead closed in 1970. An obvious route is to carry on to Marylebone, Bakerloo to Paddinton and then Elizabeth. But you would need a "via London" ticket. The direct if very slow route would be High Wycombe to West Ruislip, Central Line to Greenford, GWR to West Ealing, Elizabeth to Hayes.

I would have thought a route via Reading makes more sense.
The fare is actually routed "✠VIA HIGH WYC&SHR" so travel via London, including the Underground, is both intended and permitted. One of the sets of mapped route combinations is LONDON so there is no need for the ticket to explicitly say it's valid via London.

I think travel via West Ruislip and Greenford is also permitted - although it's not entirely clear (even to me!) whether the cost of the Underground would be included or whether you'd need to pay for this separately. There is a 'Tube' link in the industry data between South Ruislip and Greenford, which implies it's covered by a Maltese cross - but neither the Ruislips nor Greenford are in the NRE list of valid cross-London transfer stations.
 

JB_B

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Tried as suggested. Still not showing.

I can confirm that the forum site and NRE are not offering this ticket for your intended journey.

I think it's possible that problem lies in the way route 00362 is coded electronically - there doesn't appear to be provision for travel on Elizabeth Line trains.
 

Haywain

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Tried as suggested. Still not showing.
Sorry about that, I didn't check before suggesting that. However, as these are walk-up tickets you can buy them at a station ticket office or (non-journey planning) TVM and use them as intended even without an itinerary.
 
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I can confirm that the forum site and NRE are not offering this ticket for your intended journey.

I think it's possible that problem lies in the way route 00362 is coded electronically - there doesn't appear to be provision for travel on Elizabeth Line trains.
Journey planners will offer the superoffpeak ticket for the 0101 arrival at Hayes & Harlington, one of the few GWR trains to serve the station.
 

JB_B

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Journey planners will offer the superoffpeak ticket for the 0101 arrival at Hayes & Harlington, one of the few GWR trains to serve the station.
Yes, that does imply that it's a data error. Possibly it will get fixed now it's been raised here.
 

MrJeeves

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I think it's possible that problem lies in the way route 00362 is coded electronically - there doesn't appear to be provision for travel on Elizabeth Line trains.
I'm not too sure about that...

Code:
00362,D,A,HWY,N,,
00362,D,A,SHR,N,,
00362,D,T,,N,,AW
00362,D,T,,N,,CC
00362,D,T,,N,,CH
00362,D,T,,N,,GN
00362,D,T,,N,,GR
00362,D,T,,N,,GW
00362,D,T,,N,,LE
00362,D,T,,N,,LM
00362,D,T,,N,,LO
00362,D,T,,N,,ME
00362,D,T,,N,,NT
00362,D,T,,N,,SE
00362,D,T,,N,,SN
00362,D,T,,N,,SW
00362,D,T,,N,,TL
00362,D,T,,N,,VT
00362,D,T,,N,,XC
00362,L,3

The bottom line dictates the route's name does not mention London.

The top two lines dictate that only journeys travelling via both High Wycombe and Shrewsbury are permitted on tickets with this route (ignoring any easements that override this).

There is a long list of TOCs in between, but these are adding with the "T" type which is defined as (emphasis mine):
‘T’ = used with TOC ID to indicate that the route description contains a list of TOC codes, which indicate which TOCs’ trains must be used for at least one leg of a journey for any fare with this route to be valid. The inclusion of a TOC T value should not be deemed to exclude all TOC codes that are not listed. See ‘X’.

This is also clarified elsewhere:
If the route description associated with the fare has must include or must not include TOCs, then the journey must include those TOCs (one of the timetable legs of the journey must be provided by the listed TOCs) or must not include those
TOCs (none of the timetable legs of the journey must be provided by the listed TOCs).

I don't see any easements that would prevent travel via the Elizabeth Line either... Am I missing something?
 

CyrusWuff

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I don't see any easements that would prevent travel via the Elizabeth Line either... Am I missing something?
As the Elizabeth Line isn't explicitly listed, could it be the case that some journey planners are (incorrectly) interpreting that as meaning it's not permitted?
 

JB_B

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I'm not too sure about that ..
" ‘T’ = used with TOC ID to indicate that the route description contains a list of TOC codes, which indicate which TOCs’ trains must be used for at least one leg of a journey for any fare with this route to be valid. The inclusion of a TOC T value should not be deemed to exclude all TOC codes that are not listed. See ‘X’."

...
" If the route description associated with the fare has must include or must not include TOCs, then the journey must include those TOCs (one of the timetable legs of the journey must be provided by the listed TOCs) or must not include those
TOCs (none of the timetable legs of the journey must be provided by the listed TOCs)."


...

Do you have a source for those quotes? - I know it's not from RSPS5047. ( Could you be looking at the fares date spec instead? AFAIK they work differently. )
 

MrJeeves

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As the Elizabeth Line isn't explicitly listed, could it be the case that some journey planners are (incorrectly) interpreting that as meaning it's not permitted?
Yeah, but I find it tricky to believe that every single routeing engine is interpreting the data "wrong" though. It's more likely that there's another restriction somewhere else that prevents it.

Do you see that as being significant?
No, not really.

Indicates whether London is included in or excluded from the route.
Values are:
‘0’ = the route excludes London.
‘1’ = the route MUST include London.
‘2’ = the route MAY include London (i.e. the route descriptor contains two locations, e.g. STRATFORD/LONDON, indicating that the journey must pass through Stratford OR London to be valid).
‘3’ = the route does not mention London (e.g. ROMFORD).
The route does not mention London, which means that it is not forced to travel via London nor forced to exclude London. You may travel via London if the maps allow it, or bypass it if the maps allow it.

Do you have a source for those quotes?
They're from the RDG specs on public ASSIST: https://www.rspaccreditation.org/publicDocumentation.php


First one is from the definition of the ROUTES file (4.12.3) and the second is from the Route checking section (9.1.1).
 

JB_B

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...

They're from the RDG specs on public ASSIST: https://www.rspaccreditation.org/publicDocumentation.php


First one is from the definition of the ROUTES file (4.12.3) and the second is from the Route checking section (9.1.1).


Thanks - I think that's a fairly recent change to RSPS5047 in that case - I'm pretty sure it didn't used to say that.

I really do wonder if the new guidance is reflected in actual planner behaviour.

Certainly TOCs would regularly break things by making changes like this one ...


and this one...

 
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0B00

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Sorry about that, I didn't check before suggesting that. However, as these are walk-up tickets you can buy them at a station ticket office or (non-journey planning) TVM and use them as intended even without an itinerary.
Cheers. I’ll give Severn Dee my custom then at Gobowen.
 

CyrusWuff

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Yeah, but I find it tricky to believe that every single routeing engine is interpreting the data "wrong" though. It's more likely that there's another restriction somewhere else that prevents it.
I've flagged it up with Chiltern's Pricing Manager to see if he can shed some light on it.
 

0B00

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Just to follow up, I got the paper ticket for this fare at Gobowen and it didn't operate the gates at Marylebone in either direction, or tube gates at Marylebone in either direction, Can't comment on the gates at Hayes & Harlington as I ended up terminating short outward at Ealing Broadway due to some farce on the line, and coming back I was already in Central London.
 

Haywain

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Just to follow up, I got the paper ticket for this fare at Gobowen and it didn't operate the gates at Marylebone in either direction, or tube gates at Marylebone in either direction, Can't comment on the gates at Hayes & Harlington as I ended up terminating short outward at Ealing Broadway due to some farce on the line, and coming back I was already in Central London.
Did you pass through any gates with the ticket? If not, it would suggest that the magnetic stripe data was corrupted.
 

MrJeeves

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I was searching for something and it seems this has also been an issue stemming back to 2016, if I understand this right


...and it's now been fixed in the latest set of electronic routeing guide data.

As well as this, the train company restrictions in the data for "via High Wycombe and Birmingham" and "via High Wycombe and Shrewsbury" tickets have been removed.
 

CyrusWuff

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I was searching for something and it seems this has also been an issue stemming back to 2016, if I understand this right

...and it's now been fixed in the latest set of electronic routeing guide data.
It looks like it may have been an issue since the route code was created but only really been flagged as causing problems with the massive shift away from Ticket Office sales (where staff have various ways to 'ignore' restrictions to sell the desired ticket.)
 
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