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Nationalisation what it means for staff?

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Mainsideman

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What does nationalisation mean for staff?
Will everyone be under one contract? With same TOCs?
would traincrew be expected to the sign stock and routes that are currently a different operator?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Good questions!
Most likely, the legal entity TOC staff work for will simply be taken over by OLR/GBR (as has happened with TOCs LNER, Northern, TPE and Southeastern already) with operations continuing largely as now.
How that legal entity is then reorganised within GBR is anyone's guess at the moment.
Network Rail staff, and some DfT staff will also be absorbed into the GBR structure.
Some consolidation of work is likely, but perversely new divisions are likely to be created (eg where metro mayors take control of local rail services)
 

JonathanH

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Would staff end up moving to a public sector pension scheme too?
They are already in a pension scheme which is based on the one they were in when the Railways were in the public sector.

Will everyone be under one contract? With same TOCs?
It has been difficult enough to harmonise Terms & Conditions within single operators following franchise remapping, let alone consolidation across the industry. How do you harmonise without someone losing out or without enormous extra costs?
 

kw12

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It has been difficult enough to harmonise Terms & Conditions within single operators following franchise remapping, let alone consolidation across the industry. How do you harmonise without someone losing out or without enormous extra costs?
Perhaps have GBR T&Cs only for new staff, with staff TUPE'd in retaining their existing T&Cs.
 

dk1

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I don’t see much changing with most drivers for years yet if at all. Far too difficult unless it comes with the right price and little or no changes to terms and conditions. My TOC has been unsuccessful at harmonising for over 20 years now.
 

coppercapped

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What it will mean, over a period of years, is that the average pay level will decrease relative to the average pay levels in outside industry and commerce.

This will be due to the effects of a monopsony — a single purchaser. If one really wants to work on the railway operating trains then there will be only one effective employer. Nobody will be able to vote with their feet, except to a non-railway business.

Monopolies imply a single supplier - take it or leave it with high prices. Monopsonies are equally pernicious.
 
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What it will mean, over a period of years, is that the average pay level will decrease relative to the average pay levels in outside industry and commerce.

This will be due to the effects of a monopsony — a single purchaser. If one really wants to work on the railway operating trains then there will be only one effective employer. Nobody will be able to vote with their feet, except to a non-railway business.

Monopolies imply a single supplier - take it or leave it with high prices. Monopsonies are equally pernicious.
Open access? Freight?
 

Sorcerer

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I expect staff transfers would mostly be the same as it would when operators passed to the OLR. I expect the real nightmare might come from possible negotiations with the unions over staff pay differing across depots. For example, the driver depots of Northern and Avanti at Manchester and Liverpool merging into a single GBR depot. It might even become more tricky with devolved control such as Scotrail depots like Glasgow and Edinburgh merging with Avanti or LNER depots. It may not be a particularly big issue but I'd be surprised if it wasn't even a small concern at any point.
 

Mainsideman

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I expect staff transfers would mostly be the same as it would when operators passed to the OLR. I expect the real nightmare might come from possible negotiations with the unions over staff pay differing across depots. For example, the driver depots of Northern and Avanti at Manchester and Liverpool merging into a single GBR depot. It might even become more tricky with devolved control such as Scotrail depots like Glasgow and Edinburgh merging with Avanti or LNER depots. It may not be a particularly big issue but I'd be surprised if it wasn't even a small concern at any
I expect staff transfers would mostly be the same as it would when operators passed to the OLR. I expect the real nightmare might come from possible negotiations with the unions over staff pay differing across depots. For example, the driver depots of Northern and Avanti at Manchester and Liverpool merging into a single GBR depot. It might even become more tricky with devolved control such as Scotrail depots like Glasgow and Edinburgh merging with Avanti or LNER depots. It may not be a particularly big issue but I'd be surprised if it wasn't even a small concern at any point.
The same would then need to be done for train managers and guard of both tocs. That becomes a very tricky issue to sort out.
 

eldomtom2

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What it will mean, over a period of years, is that the average pay level will decrease relative to the average pay levels in outside industry and commerce.

This will be due to the effects of a monopsony — a single purchaser. If one really wants to work on the railway operating trains then there will be only one effective employer. Nobody will be able to vote with their feet, except to a non-railway business.

Monopolies imply a single supplier - take it or leave it with high prices. Monopsonies are equally pernicious.
Are the TOCs really competing with each other for staff to any significant level? Furthermore there are of course the unions, which probably have a greater effect on pay.
 

WAB

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And public sector pay constraints?
Given a lot of grades are going to see retirements in excess of recruitment, a decent salary is going to be needed to keep people there rather than leaving the industry, retiring, or becoming consultants.
 

bladerunner99

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What does nationalisation mean for staff?
Will everyone be under one contract? With same TOCs?
would traincrew be expected to the sign stock and routes that are currently a different operator?
Labor's plan seems very clear to me, one unified train company - GBR. There's little point in keeping individual TOC's as separate entities if you want to make savings. Before the 20's are out, I think we'll see the majority of TOCs transitioned to GBR, complete rebranding under GBR, with unified logos and branding for all services, and fully operational integration. Regarding the T&C's, I'd expect them to become standardised with phased implementation. Standardisation of T&C's would be a massive challenge but very possible.
 

dk1

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Labor's plan seems very clear to me, one unified train company - GBR. There's little point in keeping individual TOC's as separate entities if you want to make savings. Before the 20's are out, I think we'll see the majority of TOCs transitioned to GBR, complete rebranding under GBR, with unified logos and branding for all services, and fully operational integration. Regarding the T&C's, I'd expect them to become standardised with phased implementation. Standardisation of T&C's would be a massive challenge but very possible.

Good luck with standardising traincrew T&Cs.
 

bladerunner99

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Good luck with standardising traincrew T&Cs.
Massively complex but feasible. You'd have to bump up the lower paid employees to the new standard grades, grandfather the higher paid employees with new entrants coming onto the standard rate.
 

whoosh

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I don't think there will be one set of terms and conditions for staff nationwide. It isn't actually that important to achieve I don't think.
What is important, is each part of the railway performing it's best and growing the railway with good performance.
Will there be changes to T&Cs here and there? Yes.
Is it essential that pay and T&Cs be harmonised in all sectors and sub sectors of the railway?
No.
 

dk1

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Massively complex but feasible. You'd have to bump up the lower paid employees to the new standard grades, grandfather the higher paid employees with new entrants coming onto the standard rate.

You are looking at a decade or more to do that and that’s if the unions are on side which will be extremely debatable. Massively complex as you more than correctly state.
 

bladerunner99

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You are looking at a decade or more to do that and that’s if the unions are on side which will be extremely debatable. Massively complex as you more than correctly state.
I agree, the entire time scale is 5-10 years but by the end of this decade, the railways will look and be an entire different beast. Hopefully, for betterment of staff and customers.
 

dk1

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I agree, the entire time scale is 5-10 years but by the end of this decade, the railways will look and be an entire different beast. Hopefully, for betterment of staff and customers.

Might even be a new government by then too :lol:
 

JonathanH

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I don't think there will be one set of terms and conditions for staff nationwide. It isn't actually that important to achieve I don't think.
Negotiating one set of pay increases or implementing future changes is an economy of scale, but a lot of work to get there first.

One of the reasons for the recent industrial action was trying to harmonise terms across the industry, where different people in the same grade had different levels of terms to sell / protect.
 

CyrusWuff

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Massively complex but feasible. You'd have to bump up the lower paid employees to the new standard grades, grandfather the higher paid employees with new entrants coming onto the standard rate.
Given TOCs that were formed from mergers (e.g. GTR, GA and Northern) still have separate Ts&Cs several years after they merged, GBR's not going to magically find it any easier to harmonise them.
 

dk1

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Given TOCs that were formed from mergers (e.g. GTR, GA and Northern) still have separate Ts&Cs several years after they merged, GBR's not going to magically find it any easier to harmonise them.

Never a truer word spoken.
 

coppercapped

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Are the TOCs really competing with each other for staff to any significant level? Furthermore there are of course the unions, which probably have a greater effect on pay.
Don't forget that, like most things, prices and pay are determined by the demand at the margins. So the level of competition between TOCs for a particular set of skills depends on the type of skills and the size of the pool of appropriate staff.

This, I suppose, a long-winded way of saying that train drivers — because of the set of aptitudes needed for periods of concentration, remembering details of rolling stock and routes and a book's worth of operating procedures — are more likely to be able to 'vote with their feet' than those with more generic skills. The costs of training also plays a rôle, it can be economically more advantageous for TOC 'A' to offer higher pay to an already experienced driver from TOC 'B' than train one ab initio. Here the risk that some candidates may drop out before completing the course does not fall on TOC 'A' which can then pass on some of its savings to its new driver.

This also explains why customer facing staff are not as highly paid as train drivers — the skills needed are more akin to those sought by speciality shops in the High Street, of which there are many.

Unions certainly do have an effect on pay scales but this is limited in time. Over a period of several years changes in general economic activity tend to outweigh the effects of any individual pay deal.
Given a lot of grades are going to see retirements in excess of recruitment, a decent salary is going to be needed to keep people there rather than leaving the industry, retiring, or becoming consultants.
I wouldn't bet on it, the forces of economics are inexorable.
 

Starmill

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Given TOCs that were formed from mergers (e.g. GTR, GA and Northern) still have separate Ts&Cs several years after they merged, GBR's not going to magically find it any easier to harmonise them.
The problem has always been that the medicine is unpopular though hasn't it? It's complex, yes, but it's easy to achieve restructuring of a workforce the size of the passenger railway's in five years. The problem is simply that there's opposition to it. The current government is committed to some policies which will face tough opposition. Much tougher than this.
 
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