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Class 175 to GWR

Topological

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It does seem a bit ironic that the introduction of more rolling stock results in a degradation in service by removing a through service offering. I have no insight on whether the through services have improved passenger flows, but I can see the attraction of a service from South Wales to the South West that doesn't involve changing onto a crowded Voyager, albeit that journey times may be a little longer.
It may seem silly, but surely it is sensible that training on the new units requires time? Better to get the new units working with the trained crews and then train the rest (the crews for Exeter to Cardiff) than wait until there are enough trained crews to run the service all the way from Cardiff to Penzance?

Assuming they do plan the timetable properly, there will still be no change on to a crowded voyager, just a change from the Cardiff to Exeter non-175 onto the Exeter to Penzance 175.

It is not a repeat of what has happened to South Wales to Manchester with the removal of the 175s.
 
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Xavi

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Assuming they do plan the timetable properly, there will still be no change on to a crowded voyager, just a change from the Cardiff to Exeter non-175 onto the Exeter to Penzance 175.
Not straightforward as there's limited platform availability and paths through Exeter, and 6 minutes must be allowed for connections. Platform 2 at Exeter St Davids would be obvious to turnaround Cardiff trains, but cannot accommodate IETs if they continue to be used for the time being, and platform 6 is used for Paddington terminators. Hopwood has talked of Exeter Central being the preferred city destination (which partially justified the cancellation of the platform 2 lengthening), though again pathing would be difficult.
 

Caaardiff

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Given that there's not even been an official announcement that GWR are taking on the 175's, is it actually confirmed that any routes will be split from what they are now? Or is it purely speculation where someone mentioned it and everyone has run with it.
A lot of it would depend on the operational setup of GWR. If they have trainers at each Depot capable of training 175's, then there's no reason why training can't be done at the same time in order to have a like for like unit swap without making any changes to the timetable.

It is not a repeat of what has happened to South Wales to Manchester with the removal of the 175s.
I don't believe there were any forced swaps with the changes from 175's to 197's. There were the odd occasion where train crew that hadn't been trained on 197's and the service either had to be swapped or was cancelled, but that wasn't a regular occurrence.
 

Lurcheroo

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I don't believe there were any forced swaps with the changes from 175's to 197's. There were the odd occasion where train crew that hadn't been trained on 197's and the service either had to be swapped or was cancelled, but that wasn't a regular occurrence.
I think he is referring to the MK4’s where there were some instances of not enough connection time to the onward service to West Wales with what used to be a through service.
Although I believe those issues in the timetable have been resolved now.
 

Caaardiff

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I think he is referring to the MK4’s where there were some instances of not enough connection time to the onward service to West Wales with what used to be a through service.
Although I believe those issues in the timetable have been resolved now.
Yup. Which is nothing to do with 175 introductions to GWR, as the Mk4 amendments were always going to be that way. Nothing to do with train crew training.
 

jamieh27

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Not straightforward as there's limited platform availability and paths through Exeter, and 6 minutes must be allowed for connections. Platform 2 at Exeter St Davids would be obvious to turnaround Cardiff trains, but cannot accommodate IETs if they continue to be used for the time being, and platform 6 is used for Paddington terminators. Hopwood has talked of Exeter Central being the preferred city destination (which partially justified the cancellation of the platform 2 lengthening), though again pathing would be difficult.
They can use 5 car IETs when the extension is completed, they have already demolished the old Staff shed next to the old station building so they can make work their way by extending inwards, I don't know if the old station building is going to be affected or wether its a listed building and it will be converted into a Cafe or pub.
 

The exile

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They can use 5 car IETs when the extension is completed, they have already demolished the old Staff shed next to the old station building so they can make work their way by extending inwards, I don't know if the old station building is going to be affected or wether its a listed building and it will be converted into a Cafe or pub.
Hasn’t the extension been cancelled?
 

co-tr-paul

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As an HST fan, I've checked up on interior shots of 175 and to be honest, for use on Cardiff to Penzance, doesn't look too bad. Saying that, never sat on a 175 seat or felt it's aircon but it looks suitable for purpose. I do PZ to CF occasionally. Even in 150s .... !
 

Jrocks

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No, otherwise the shed wouldn't have been knocked down.
The extension has most certainly been cancelled, funding has been used for elsewhere. The staff shed was only ever a temporary solution for the depot, albeit a very very long temporary.
 

brad465

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No, otherwise the shed wouldn't have been knocked down.
The extension has most certainly been cancelled, funding has been used for elsewhere. The staff shed was only ever a temporary solution for the depot, albeit a very very long temporary.
Is there a public source on the status of this project available so we can settle the matter?
 

Topological

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Yup. Which is nothing to do with 175 introductions to GWR, as the Mk4 amendments were always going to be that way. Nothing to do with train crew training.
Sorry? I did not say that the change was due to crew training.

I said that there were forced swaps as a result of the transition from 175s to 197s on TfW, saying that it was not unheard of to have forced swaps in the transition between trains (and possibly ironically, it was the 175s involved again)

@Lurcheroo is exactly right. We lost direct connectivity across Cardiff and are only scheduled to get it back in December.

You are right it was nothing to do with crew training, it was purely about the desire of TfW to run a vanity service of reject English Intercity trains from the 1990s.

At least any split on the GWR would be to genuinely free the IETs to go back to doing what they should have been doing (i.e not leaving IET mainline services shortformed). Indeed I suspect since many of the shortforms have been on South Wales to London, a poll in South Wales would find that using them on London trains with a connection at Exeter for Penzance was more popular than keeping the Londons shortformed and sending the IET to Penzance direct.

As to platforming at Exeter for the connection, I had thought of 6, but if that does not work then there must be some solution. 4 and 6 collectively do not handle that many trains per hour.
 

Xavi

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No, otherwise the shed wouldn't have been knocked down.
Yes, the extension has been cancelled. I think I referenced this earlier. It was initially paused because the former Tory government reduced short term funding to NR. GWR and XC then agreed it would be of limited use as many trains are longer than 5 carriages, and passengers for Exeter often want to use Exeter Central.
 

Jrocks

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Is there a public source on the status of this project available so we can settle the matter?
To be fair, i dont believe anything has been put out to the public regarding the matter, I dont know if any planning application was withdrawn after being submitted to Exeter City Council. Many of us still very much believe extending platform 2, even only for upto 5 coaches, will be very useful during disruption, however dont expect to see any more work on the extension project.
 

bnsf734

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Is there a public source on the status of this project available so we can settle the matter?

Page 56 in Modern Railways August 2024 where Mark Hopwood in conversation with James Abbot stated that it had been cancelled as there is no money to pay for it and it is more useful to run trains to Exeter Central where possible.

As this is this Class 175 to Great Western thread rather than the Exeter St Davids thread, I will ask whether there is a plan for the 175's to be put into GWR livery before entering service, or introducing TFW colours to GWR? I think they have been debranded as they came off lease.

Any timescales available yet?
 
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BillStampy

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As this is this Class 175 to Great Western thread rather than the Exeter St Davids thread, I will ask whether there is a plan for the 175's to be put into GWR livery before entering service, or introducing TFW colours to GWR? I think they have been debranded as they came off lease.

Any timescales available yet?
All Class 175s should be debranded before being transferred to Ely, that work is done when a unit heads to Landore.
Unsure of timescales, but if they're aiming for mid next year, any movements should be soon for any chance of getting them in as fast as possible, if they are going as fast as possible, potentially remaining in TFW colours, unless they have the time to do so whilst preparing them for service.
 

jamieh27

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To be fair, i dont believe anything has been put out to the public regarding the matter, I dont know if any planning application was withdrawn after being submitted to Exeter City Council. Many of us still very much believe extending platform 2, even only for upto 5 coaches, will be very useful during disruption, however dont expect to see any more work on the extension project.
It was suppose to extend to 5 coaches so it keeps Platform 6 clear of any freight or railtours.
 

John R

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You are right it was nothing to do with crew training, it was purely about the desire of TfW to run a vanity service of reject English Intercity trains from the 1990s.
Your vanity service is someone else's excellent service with decent space, linking the capital city with one of England's major conurbations, offering good connectivity to Scotland at Crewe. I've used it to travel from Bristol to Manchester a few times now, and it is a far more pleasant journey than the direct service, even if you have to change at Newport. (Fares are better too.)

At least any split on the GWR would be to genuinely free the IETs to go back to doing what they should have been doing (i.e not leaving IET mainline services shortformed).
Having travelled from Bristol to Worcester yesterday on a midday stopping IET than I completely agree with this. There were no more than 3 people in my coach (not first!) the whole way. It's an absurd use of rolling stock.

(I'm more agnostic on their use on the Cardiff - Penzance route, as there it affords some decent connectivity between several major cities in Wales and the WoE.)
 

Caaardiff

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Sorry? I did not say that the change was due to crew training.

I said that there were forced swaps as a result of the transition from 175s to 197s on TfW, saying that it was not unheard of to have forced swaps in the transition between trains (and possibly ironically, it was the 175s involved again)
The original discussion was this:
Why do GWR need to split the Cardiff Penzance service at Exeter, following Class 175 introduction? Surely the fleet is big enough to serve the entire route?
The obvious reason would be to speed up initial crew training as you only have to train the staff at one end of the route.
Your point about TFW splitting West Wales - Manchester services was nothing to do with train crew training, it was due to the introduction of Mk4's. It was also nothing to do with 197's as they run through to West Wales. 175/15x were running on West Wales - Manchester services during the changeover. So nothing to do with the topic we're referring to of Cardiff - Penzance for GWR. You seem to want to drop TFW's decision about Mk4's into every possible topic.

If GWR have the setup to train crews at both ends of the route then there shouldn't be any need to split the routes. It depends how quick they want to get them into service.
 

JonathanH

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If GWR have the setup to train crews at both ends of the route then there shouldn't be any need to split the routes. It depends how quick they want to get them into service.
Other reasons seemingly quoted have been timetable related, or the desire to serve Exeter Central directly. Is there any formal indication of the reason, rather than speculation?
 

Caaardiff

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Other reasons seemingly quoted have been timetable related, or the desire to serve Exeter Central directly. Is there any formal indication of the reason, rather than speculation?
It's nothing but speculation. The ink is barely dry on GWR getting them and ideas are being run away with.
 

Snow1964

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At least any split on the GWR would be to genuinely free the IETs to go back to doing what they should have been doing (i.e not leaving IET mainline services shortformed). Indeed I suspect since many of the shortforms have been on South Wales to London, a poll in South Wales would find that using them on London trains with a connection at Exeter for Penzance was more popular than keeping the Londons shortformed and sending the IET to Penzance direct.
It is not just the IETs, there is the shortage of 158s too.
The 158s keep being borrowed from Cardiff-Portsmouth leaving 2car trains.

As example todays 1F12 Portsmouth-Cardiff lost 15 mins by Bath, following train 1F14 lost 10 mins by Bath.
Return CDF-PMH 1F15 also lost 10 mins by Bath, and according to real time trains took 4.5 minutes at Bath which shows how slow churn is when reduced to 2car 158s
 

Clarence Yard

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Today isn’t about borrowing 158 units - there are a considerable amount stopped, the same with 150 units. We are not just talking about only 2 or 3 of each class either.
 

Express380

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Today isn’t about borrowing 158 units - there are a considerable amount stopped, the same with 150 units. We are not just talking about only 2 or 3 of each class either.
The 175s can't come soon enough I think it's fair to say as all fleets seem to be stretched one way or another
 

Snow1964

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Today isn’t about borrowing 158 units - there are a considerable amount stopped, the same with 150 units. We are not just talking about only 2 or 3 of each class either.
In a logical word having large number of units stopped, which cannot be repaired before service would suggest fleet is :
1) not big enough,
2) life expired and not practical to repair in timely way
3) overworked to point they regularly fail

but of course DfT hasn't seen it that way for last few years. And it's not clear if even adding all the 175s will provide a sufficiently large enough fleet
 

Topological

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The original discussion was this:


Your point about TFW splitting West Wales - Manchester services was nothing to do with train crew training, it was due to the introduction of Mk4's. It was also nothing to do with 197's as they run through to West Wales. 175/15x were running on West Wales - Manchester services during the changeover. So nothing to do with the topic we're referring to of Cardiff - Penzance for GWR. You seem to want to drop TFW's decision about Mk4's into every possible topic.

If GWR have the setup to train crews at both ends of the route then there shouldn't be any need to split the routes. It depends how quick they want to get them into service.
I understand your desire to defend TfW, that's fine as presumably your use of the line was not impacted as badly as those of us who travel from West Wales to Manchester.

But since this is about splitting a direct service (do we agree on that?) and TfW split a direct service (we presumably agree on that) then it does follow that what I said is entirely relevant. In response to those saying that direct services should not be split, I gave an example where one was split and where the split was not for a logical reason (like speeding up introduction of new services), but purely to get rolling stock into use that actually is not suitable for the job (because the 68s cannot run the full diagram).

I challenge you to find a single case I have mentioned TfW splitting Manchester to West Wales on anything other than the Mk4 thread, the 197 thread, the previous threads about withdrawing 175s (All directly relevant), a thread about terminating trains in Cardiff (there have been a few about the impact of terminating trains in Cardiff on GWR services as well as the station design at Cardiff), or a thread about splitting direct services. I am sure there are none because I do not drop TfWs vanity project into "every possible topic".

If you still want to discuss TfW then maybe we should take it back to the thread on the Mk4s and leave this here as it is, an example of a split service with no intention to restore later.

In this case, I think allowing the 175s to be introduced on the Penzance services sooner, with the benefit that IETs can go back to helping where they were originally booked to be.

It is not just the IETs, there is the shortage of 158s too.
The 158s keep being borrowed from Cardiff-Portsmouth leaving 2car trains.

As example todays 1F12 Portsmouth-Cardiff lost 15 mins by Bath, following train 1F14 lost 10 mins by Bath.
Return CDF-PMH 1F15 also lost 10 mins by Bath, and according to real time trains took 4.5 minutes at Bath which shows how slow churn is when reduced to 2car 158s
IF splitting the Penzance to Cardiff to get 175s in quicker helps with the 158s then that is a noble cause too.

Having the chance to bring more units into use quicker has to be worth some temporary pain in terms of connections in what used to be direct services.
 

jamieh27

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I understand your desire to defend TfW, that's fine as presumably your use of the line was not impacted as badly as those of us who travel from West Wales to Manchester.

But since this is about splitting a direct service (do we agree on that?) and TfW split a direct service (we presumably agree on that) then it does follow that what I said is entirely relevant. In response to those saying that direct services should not be split, I gave an example where one was split and where the split was not for a logical reason (like speeding up introduction of new services), but purely to get rolling stock into use that actually is not suitable for the job (because the 68s cannot run the full diagram).

I challenge you to find a single case I have mentioned TfW splitting Manchester to West Wales on anything other than the Mk4 thread, the 197 thread, the previous threads about withdrawing 175s (All directly relevant), a thread about terminating trains in Cardiff (there have been a few about the impact of terminating trains in Cardiff on GWR services as well as the station design at Cardiff), or a thread about splitting direct services. I am sure there are none because I do not drop TfWs vanity project into "every possible topic".

If you still want to discuss TfW then maybe we should take it back to the thread on the Mk4s and leave this here as it is, an example of a split service with no intention to restore later.

In this case, I think allowing the 175s to be introduced on the Penzance services sooner, with the benefit that IETs can go back to helping where they were originally booked to be.


IF splitting the Penzance to Cardiff to get 175s in quicker helps with the 158s then that is a noble cause too.

Having the chance to bring more units into use quicker has to be worth some temporary pain in terms of connections in what used to be direct services.
Quite a few trains have had to split before I know sometimes Great Malvern to Brighton have had to split their services at Bristol Temple Meads from time to time.
 

John R

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but of course DfT hasn't seen it that way for last few years. And it's not clear if even adding all the 175s will provide a sufficiently large enough fleet
Around 70 additional vehicles, albeit offset by 16(?) withdrawn Mk 3's, would seem a reasonable improvement. Though in terms of the regional fleet I guess the key will be how much of the benefit will accrue to that fleet, and how much to the IC fleet with IET's reverting to their original purpose routes.
 

The exile

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Around 70 additional vehicles, albeit offset by 16(?) withdrawn Mk 3's, would seem a reasonable improvement. Though in terms of the regional fleet I guess the key will be how much of the benefit will accrue to that fleet, and how much to the IC fleet with IET's reverting to their original purpose routes.
That presumably depends on how many IETs are currently diagrammed for non-IC duties. Obviously it's quite a few, but I doubt it's getting on for 20, which is presumably roughly how many 175s will be available for service once the HSTs have been replaced.
 

RPI

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That presumably depends on how many IETs are currently diagrammed for non-IC duties. Obviously it's quite a few, but I doubt it's getting on for 20, which is presumably roughly how many 175s will be available for service once the HSTs have been replaced.
This raises the question now though, Cardiff to Penzance has become quite a well used "intercity" service, has plenty of stops but no changes required, it's almost a victim of its own success
 

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