When did HST trailers and power cars lose their prefixes

[Rover]

Did the HST power cars and trailers lose their prefixes when they were repainted into Inter City livery or were they removed earlier whilst still in blue and grey. After 40 years the memory is not like it once was.
Thanks.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The transition away from regional prefix, was in parallel with being painted into InterCity livery.

The initial "Executive" livery - applied to 253028 and 253030 - the DMBs did still have bodyside regional prefix (and a quick Internet image search threw up W43128 and W43130 in said livery). I don't have a close up shot of the Mk3 stock but my guess is they also carried W- prefix. "Executive" livery trailer cars had their fawn-grey upper band continued higher - by one roof-rib.

Blue-yellow-grey DMBs carried a regional prefix on bodyside, until their repaint to IC.
Neville Hill added "43xxx" number to the front end of some - on drawbar valance, or above light cluster - but without the regional prefix.

And OT but 43049 (a NH example I recall) had a delightful nod to LNER days, with a block-shaded (in red/gold relief) number on the cab end in IC.
When repainted to "Swallow IC", the same treatment was given to the number on its front end and on its cabsides.

 

[SteveM70]

A related question - when did the set numbers start being removed from the nose ends?

 

[StephenHunter]

A related question - when did the set numbers start being removed from the nose ends?

I believe early 1980s? Power cars were being swapped between sets, causing problems.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I believe early 1980s? Power cars were being swapped between sets, causing problems.

Yes, their removal indeed  started then - although it was fairly common to see 253xxx set end numbers added to the WR IC liveried examples. None for 254xxx though.

Off the top of my head, I don't recall any set numbers painted on ends of "Swallow IC" DMBs. 43xxx numbers, though, were painted onto the ends of quite a few.
35mm photos are boxed up in the loft; I'll have a gander over Christmas.

@Cowley and @Ashley Hill this is all surely your 1980s forte?

 

[hexagon789]

A related question - when did the set numbers start being removed from the nose ends?

I believe early 1980s? Power cars were being swapped between sets, causing problems.

The Western kept them much longer than the Eastern/Scottish regions.

The ER/ScR stopped applying 254xxx numbers in 1982, but obviously PCs retained these numbers until repainted, so you will still see some 254xxx numbers in 1983.

The WR kept applyimg 253xxx numbers to them pretty much right up until the Power Cars were officially reclassified as Class 43 locomotives in 1989. Certainly 43163/164 carried 253041 for some months after transferring from the Western to Eastern in 1987. They were still carrying those numbers in March 1988 at least. There are photos of power cars with 253xxx numbers in 1989 as well, the question is more when exactly the WR stopped applying such numbers.

 

[43096]

The transition away from regional prefix, was in parallel with being painted into InterCity livery.

The initial "Executive" livery - applied to 253028 and 253030 - the DMBs did still have bodyside regional prefix (and a quick Internet image search threw up a pic of W43130 in said livery). I don't have a close up shot of the Mk3 stock but my guess is they also carried W- prefix.

Blue-yellow-grey DMBs carried a regional prefix on bodyside, until their repaint to IC.
Neville Hill added "43xxx" number to the front end of some - on drawbar valance, or above light cluster - but without the regional prefix.

And OT but 43049 (a NH example I recall) had a delightful nod to LNER days, with a block-shaded (in red/gold relief) number on the cab end in IC.
When repainted to "Swallow IC", the same treatment was given to the number on its front end and on its cabsides.

I never knew Newton Heath was an HST depot!

 

[Sun Chariot]

I never knew Newton Heath was an HST depot!

Oh pants What was Neville Hill's code? I haven't kept up on 'em since 1991.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Oh pants What was Neville Hill's code? I haven't kept up on 'em since 1991.

NL

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks, Peter. Face-palms self.

Loosely coupled to the OP's question: which was the last DMB to lose its original livery?
By 1988 I only saw one: Bristol TM, during an All Line Rail Rover. It's 43172 I  think; my 35mm photo is of the driver's side and so its vehicle number was at the opposite end.
That was the last I saw in blue-yellow-grey garb (until the "heritage repaints")

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, Peter. Face-palms self.

Loosely coupled to the OP's question: which was the last DMB to lose its original livery?
By 1988 I only saw one: Bristol TM, during an All Line Rail Rover. It's 43172 I  think; my 35mm photo is of the driver's side and so its vehicle number was at the opposite end.
That was the last I saw in blue-yellow-grey garb (until the "heritage repaints")

43090, repainted November 1987.

One of the three which went straight from Blue/Grey to IC 'Swallow', bypassing IC 'Executive', the other two being 43102 and 43171.

43172 actually emerged after 43171 from works and in Executive despite having gone into works before it but according to the Railway Observer, 43090 was the last in Blue/Grey.

 

[Sun Chariot]

43090, repainted November 1987.

One of the three which went straight from Blue/Grey to IC 'Swallow', bypassing IC 'Executive', the other two being 43102 and 43172.

43172 actually emerged after 43171 from works and in Executive despite having gone into works before it but according to the Railway Observer, 43090 was the last in Blue/Grey.

Super, thanks @hexagon789 in which case my 35mm shot of 43172 must've been taken in summer 1987, on a meander to Cardiff via BTM. Rather than 1988's ALRR.

 

[hexagon789]

Super, thanks @hexagon789 in which case my 35mm shot of 43172 must've been taken in summer 1987, on a meander to Cardiff via BTM. Rather than 1988's ALRR.

Sorry, slight typo in my post.

The three Blue/Grey to Swallow power cars should read 43090, 43102 and 43171

I would hesitate to trust a single source, but in this instance other sources give 43090 as well, so I think it's fairly safe to take it as correct.

(Railway Observer was also usually one of the more accurate publications of the time.)

 

[Sun Chariot]

Ah - many thanks - I suspect my BTM photo is of 43171 in that case; it was definitely taken no earlier than mid 1987.

 

[Incogcyclist79]

Yes, their removal indeed  started then - although it was fairly common to see 253xxx set end numbers added to the WR IC liveried examples. None for 254xxx though.

Off the top of my head, I don't recall any set numbers painted on ends of "Swallow IC" DMBs. 43xxx numbers, though, were painted onto the ends of quite a few.
35mm photos are boxed up in the loft; I'll have a gander over Christmas.

@Cowley and @Ashley Hill this is all surely your 1980s forte?

Yes some certainly did. I've found an image my dad took at Narroways, Bristol on 25/6/88.

43171 is the lead power car, with it's 253 number (with 43149 on the rear also in intercity swallow livery) with a nice complete rake of blue/grey stock in-between.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Superb @Incogcyclist79 - that is gold-dust

43171 coincidentally was one of the three which went from blue/grey/yellow straight into IC "Swallow". Info on Posts #11 to #14
43172 - the other DMB of set 253045 - I've not found any pic with the set number painted on it whilst in IC Swallow livery.

43102 and 43171 had their vehicle numbers located behind the secondman's cab, rather than (rest of the Swallow fleet) under cabside's window.
A shot I found of 43102 - via Google image search - lacks a set number.
"Last one in" was 43090. I found a 1993 dated photo and its vehicle number is the standard position under each cabside window. Again, no set number.

So your dad's photo is a brilliant find.

Edit: Martin Loader's excellent website has photos of 43171 so treated, too:

43171 Blackwell 19 April 1988

43171 Didcot North Junction 22 June 1989

 

[43096]

Superb @Incogcyclist79 - that is gold-dust

43171 coincidentally was one of the three which went from blue/grey/yellow straight into IC "Swallow". Info on Posts #11 to #14
43172 - the other DMB of set 253045 - I've not found any pic with the set number painted on it whilst in IC Swallow livery.

43102 and 43171 had their vehicle numbers located behind the secondman's cab, rather than (rest of the Swallow fleet) under cabside's window.
A shot I found of 43102 - via Google image search - lacks a 253xxx number.
"Last one in" was 43090. I found a 1993 dated photo and its vehicle number is the standard position under each cabside window. Again, no 253xxx set number.

43090 and 43102 were Eastern power cars so would not have had a set number (and certainly not a 253xxx number!) by that stage.

 

[Rover]

Thanks for the replies all.

 

[Helvellyn]

And OT but 43049 (a NH example I recall) had a delightful nod to LNER days, with a block-shaded (in red/gold relief) number on the cab end in IC.
When repainted to "Swallow IC", the same treatment was given to the number on its front end and on its cabsides.

Given it was named Neville Hill the nod was probably more because it was the depot mascot/pet.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Probably silly but fairly related question - the ECML and MML sets were in a common pool so presumably all carried E prefixes to the DMB and trailer numberings, apart from the few which (I believe) had SC prefixes?

How were the vehicles in the original batch of NE-SW units prefixed?

 

[hexagon789]

How were the vehicles in the original batch of NE-SW units prefixed?

'W'

 

[Sun Chariot]

Given it was named Neville Hill the nod was probably more because it was the depot mascot/pet.

Indeed - it was the only "depot pet" DMB I'd known of. Possibly 43038 - adorned with a white cab roof - was another?

How were the vehicles in the original batch of NE-SW units prefixed?

I'm trying to recall their formation. Those were 7-coach sets. Did they have just the one FO from the outset? Did they have a TRUK or a TRSB from the outset?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm trying to recall their formation. Those were 7-coach sets. Did they have just the one FO from the outset? Did they have a TRUK or a TRSB from the outset?

DM - TF - TRSB - 4 TS - TGS - DM

 

[SteveM70]

DM - TF - TRSB - 4 TS - TGS - DM

Was it a TGS from the outset? My memory is they were conversions not new builds?

 

[hexagon789]

Was it a TGS from the outset? My memory is they were conversions not new builds?

Introduced 1980, so yes as the NE/SW HSTs appeared in 1982 they had a TGS from new.

TGS were all new-build.

 

[Helvellyn]

Was it a TGS from the outset? My memory is they were conversions not new builds?

The TGS were new build - 90 of them. No TS werre ordered for the 18 NE-SW sets and instead 72 of the TGS were intended to be inserted into 72 of the original 73 sets in place of a TS, which were sent back to Derby ro be marshalked in the NE-SW sets.

18 TRUBs were also part of the same order but they were used to replace the smaller TRSBs which were also cascaded into the NE-SW sets. So only the power cars, TFs and some of the TGSs were new build in the NE-SW sets.

These were also the first sets where the Power Cars were officially DM rather than DMB, because the Guard was now housed in the TGS.

Further changes by BR meant the 18 sets never all entered service on the NE-SW route.

 

[Western Sunset]

102 TGS were built new at Litchurch Lane:

Lot 30949 44001-44090
Lot 30953 44000
Lot 30964 44091-44094
Lot 30970 44095-44101

I recall seeing the first builds stencilled as GTS at Litchurch Lane whilst in undercoat, though changed to TGS before completion.

 

[SteveM70]

The TGS were new build - 90 of them. No TS werre ordered for the 18 NE-SW sets and instead 72 of the TGS were intended to be inserted into 72 of the original 73 sets in place of a TS, which were sent back to Derby ro be marshalked in the NE-SW sets.

Thanks, that makes sense, I was mistaken thinking the TGS development was after the end of production. But why only 72 of the 73 sets?

 

[43096]

These were also the first sets where the Power Cars were officially DM rather than DMB, because the Guard was now housed in the TGS.

They weren’t. The first 10 power cars of the XC build (43153-162) were sent to the Eastern as their additional sets were evidently more of a priority than XC, despite the ECML sets being ordered later.

 

[Helvellyn]

Thanks, that makes sense, I was mistaken thinking the TGS development was after the end of production. But why only 72 of the 73 sets?

Prototype vehicle 44000 covered the 73rd set, being ordered for inclusion in the last of the third batch that went to the WR, but the trailers then became a NE-SW set as part of shuffling around the sets as the final two batches were delivered.

It's a whole thread in itself to explain the five batches as ordered, what actually happened as they were delivered and subsequent shuffle arounds to then get sets for the Midland Mainline.