ScotRail Flexipass Troubles - Quick help please!

[CraigP]

Hi all,

I am having some trouble with a Flexipass! Its driving me nuts!

I have a flexipass issued by my employer that clearly says the following on the front:

GLASGOW - EDINBURGH
or

EDINBURGH - GLASGOW

Any permitted route.

The t's & c's say things like "fill in the date" etc and "this ticket is for a single journey"

It also says that the ticket is valid when alighting at Motherwell too.

now my problem is - I tried to board a train at Edinburgh Park (the Helensborough train)

This train goes between Haymarket and Glasgow Queen Street so i assumed this would be fine - I have confirmed that the express between Haymarket and Glasgow Queen Street is fine for this ticket

A ticket inspector at Edinburgh Park tells me that i cannot use that ticket at Edinburgh Park station as it is only for the express train and not the (Helensborough train - despite them going between the same stations)

I cant get a straight answer when calling ScotRail. Anyone help?

My point is that the ticket's full conditions mention nothing about specific trains (ie express or not) - it actually says "ANY PERMITTED ROUTE"

He seems to be just making up conditions that dont exist!!

worst case, i travel 1 stop from Edinburgh Park to Haymarket at a cost of £2.50ish then travel from haymarket but why should i pay & waste time because this guy is abusing power!?

No other ticket inspector on or off the trains has ever questioned the ticket.

thanks

 

[island]

I think he's right: Edinburgh means Edinburgh Waverley, not any Edinburgh station. On the other hand, the Glasgow entry should be rendered "GLASGOW CEN/QST".

Edit: No, I'm talking nonsense. Edinburgh Park is en route. Unless there's a break of journey restriction then you're absolutely fine.

Second edit: Unfortunately there is no break of journey allowed on flexipasses (other than "for connectional purposes") so you are therefore not allowed to start short at Edinburgh Park. Strictly you are not allowed to start at Haymarket either.

Third edit: You may use the ticket on any train from Edinburgh to Glasgow or v/v (irrespective of which route it takes), but you must join at one end and alight at the other.

 

[CraigP]

haha,

cheers for the quick reply.

Yeah eventually spoke to a helpful lady in ScotRail who ended up saying the same.

Its point to point.

Though it is so so silly that they simply state GLASGOW and EDINBURGH when there are multiple stations at each end that could be interpreted as being the end points.

I know, being from around here i'd consider Edinburgh Waverly to be what "EDINBURGH" means but how are all passengers to know this.

Also, as you say, not had even a blink of an eye at Haymarket.

Crazy when you think about it - I am making a shorter journey and paying more but its not allowed.

Looks like i'll need to pay the extra from Edin Park - Haymarket & waste another 15mins.

Thanks again

 

[rail-britain]

If the employer has issued a ticket for use between Edinburgh and Glasgow, then why were you travelling from Edinburgh Park?

If it was during work and is part of a normal journey, then it may be the employers misunderstanding of the ticket (ie travel from Edinburgh, Haymarket, and Edinburgh Park)
They should then have included details for the ticket holder that you are required to purchase a separate ticket between Edinburgh Park and Edinburgh, then submit the receipt for reimbursement as a business expense

It was for other reasons, then that is your personal benefit
As above, a separate ticket is required but you cannot claim the business expense

 

[CraigP]

Theres an office near haymarket and near glasgow central.

I am at Edinburgh park for training. only a few weeks so not a permanent thing.

I mean, i am not trying to dodge tickets here. Its just frustrating when the ticket only has 10 conditions on the back & no other references but clearly some (not all) of the conductors etc have been told about other conditions

Or the fact that Edinburgh and Glasgow are open for interpretation.

Does anyone know any specific reason for these tickets to be Point to point? I cant think of any logical reason? surely a passenger alighting or boarding early but paying for a longer journey is only a good thing for ScotRail? :P nuts

 

[rail-britain]

Sadly some stations are grouped together, others are not, as you have found with Edinburgh Waverley / Haymarket and Glasgow Central / Glasgow Queen Street

As above, you need to buy a separate ticket between Edinburgh Park and Haymarket
This is due to the terms of the ticket, which in effect is a station-to-station only (similar to an advance purchase)

 

[island]

When I have bought tickets to Haymarket they always just show EDINBURGH.

I have tickets to/from HAYMARKET. There used to be a station group EDINBURGH BR (NLC 0255) including EDINBURGH and HAYMARKET, but this was dropped some time ago.

AFAIK, Waverley and Haymarket are treated as the same station for ticketing in the same way the Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queens Street are, so I think that you could use this ticket from Haymarket but not from Edinburgh Park.

I suspect most fares between either of the stations and any other are probably the same. But this doesn't necessarily hold up (it may be an informal easement). On the other hand, the return half of my EDB-DEE was retained in the barrier at HYM last week despite that I could have been breaking my journey and desiring to travel on to EDB later. So there could be some programming to make the systems consider the stations interchangeable.

I mean, i am not trying to dodge tickets here. Its just frustrating when the ticket only has 10 conditions on the back & no other references but clearly some (not all) of the conductors etc have been told about other conditions

I haven't seen the tickets, but the ScotRail website does say that there's no break of journey on the tickets, and I suspect (don't have it to hand) that Avantix will say the same.

Does anyone know any specific reason for these tickets to be Point to point? I cant think of any logical reason? surely a passenger alighting or boarding early but paying for a longer journey is only a good thing for ScotRail? :P nuts

Not always; there are often commercial reasons to prohibit break of journey/starting short. The oft-noted Shotton to London Terminals SVR is one that comes to mind; it's valid via Chester and is the exact same price (£70). However, it has much less restrictive condition (VK) — the ticket from Shotton is valid to arrive into Euston any time after 1000, and can be used to return on any train (except the 1610, which you would not use anyway because there's no connection). The Chester ticket (2C) is only valid to arrive in London after 1130, and has the massive evening peak bar between 1500 and 1845. As a quid pro quo, however, the Shotton ticket has no break of journey on the outbound portion.

In this case, since the customer is required to purchase 10 or 50 tickets at a time, perhaps First would prefer someone who wants to buy 10 tickets and use some to go from Edinburgh to Falkirk and others to go from Edinburgh to Glasgow (IIRC Falkirk is on-route for Edinburgh-Glasgow; feel free to substitute stations mentally if not) to instead buy 10 Edinburgh-Glasgow and 10 Edinburgh-Falkirk tickets.

 

[rail-britain]

The full terms can be found here :
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr0ce6a40a0400020068af383a67a9c0/details.html

Flexipass tickets are only valid for point to point journeys and cannot be used for intermediate trips e.g. Glasgow - Edinburgh Flexipass is not available for Croy to Edinburgh journeys
The exception is Motherwell
Therefore the same applies Edinburgh Park to Glasgow, classed as an intermediate trip

 

[Liam]

When I have bought tickets to Haymarket they always just show EDINBURGH.

AFAIK, Waverley and Haymarket are treated as the same station for ticketing in the same way the Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queens Street are, so I think that you could use this ticket from Haymarket but not from Edinburgh Park.

Officially, no. Unofficially, yes. I have never been questioned about leaving Haymarket on an Edinburgh ticket, or at Waverley on a Haymarket ticket (only done it once though), however you could still be refused access to the platform by a ticket inspector. However, IIRC the gates at both stations accept Edinburgh and Haymarket tickets.

Also IIRC, you also aren't allowed to change at Waverley if travelling from the West to North, however there is an easement for Stirling to Carlisle.

 

[rail-britain]

Also IIRC, you also aren't allowed to change at Waverley if travelling from the West to North, however there is an easement for Stirling to Carlisle.

That doesn't work on some other connections, as one (or even both) of the services does not call at Haymarket

 

[John @ home]

you also aren't allowed to change at Waverley if travelling from the West to North, however there is an easement for Stirling to Carlisle.

This is incorrect for all journeys which neither start nor finish in Edinburgh Group. Edinburgh (Waverley) and Haymarket are two of the four members of Edinburgh Group. The others are Dalmeny and South Gyle. The National Routeing Guide makes the position clear:

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

 

[IainH]

Right so Edinburgh means Edinburgh Stations, which according to ATOC Is Edinburgh, Haymarket, South Gyle and Dalmeny? So he can use it from Dalmeny? Or it means just Edinburgh, so he can't use if from Haymarket? In either case you can argue the T's and C's are ambiguous. And from South Gyle, walk to Edin Park might well be a reasonable route?

 

[bb21]

Right so Edinburgh means Edinburgh Stations, which according to ATOC Is Edinburgh, Haymarket, South Gyle and Dalmeny? So he can use it from Dalmeny? Or it means just Edinburgh, so he can't use if from Haymarket? In either case you can argue the T's and C's are ambiguous. And from South Gyle, walk to Edin Park might well be a reasonable route?

You're confusing the station group Edinburgh Stations (if one existed) and the Edinburgh group of stations for routeing purposes. The latter consists of four stations and permits doubleback within to enable more opportunities for interchange provided that the ticket held does not start or finish at any of these four stations.

As there is no Edinburgh Stations designation nowadays, 'Edinburgh' as printed on the ticket means Edinburgh Waverley alone.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I don't understand how the average passenger is meant to know this, though. The station's name is Edinburgh Waverley. Haymarket's station name may not include the word 'Edinburgh,' but Edinburgh Park's does.

 

[rail-britain]

I don't understand how the average passenger is meant to know this, though. The station's name is Edinburgh Waverley. Haymarket's station name may not include the word 'Edinburgh,' but Edinburgh Park's does.

If the customer does not understand, then they should explain their travel requirements or needs during the purchase process

As above, each station name is unique and printed on the ticket
The only station name that can cause confusion is Glasgow, but normally this is printed as "Glasgow Cen/QST" on the ticket
Edinburgh, means Edinburgh Waverley only
As above, it used to be the case this included Haymarket, and the benefit of the doubt is given due to their proximity
Sadly does not apply to Edinburgh Park

 

[island]

It would help if they put "EDINBURGH WAVRLY" instead of "EDINBURGH *" as the origin/destination, I think.

 

[IainH]

Fair point on the group station thing. However, if Edinburgh means Edinburgh Waverley (alone) and CraigP has used his ticket with scotrails blessing from Haymarket, then its not a huge jump for him to also think its OK to use it at Edin Park? I'm talking reasonable, not what those with an in-depth knowledge might think, as both Haymarket and EP are stations in the edinburgh metropolitan area. So I think (if you can be bothered) an approach to trading standards would succeed on the reasonableness test, and also as the rules are unclear.

 

[rail-britain]

I'm talking reasonable, not what those with an in-depth knowledge might think, as both Haymarket and EP are stations in the edinburgh metropolitan area

You could then include Slateford then
Transfer the same theory to Glasgow and you end up with a long list including High Street, Argyle Street, etc

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't understand how the average passenger is meant to know this, though. The station's name is Edinburgh Waverley. Haymarket's station name may not include the word 'Edinburgh,' but Edinburgh Park's does.

It is wierd - The price for Edinburgh Waverley and Haymarket are the same from most destinations in Scotland. I once had a Glasgow - Haymarket ticket and asked the gaurd to excess to Waverley, they told me to just go to the barrier which I did, they let me out no problem. I remember when it was a whole 10p cheaper to go to Haymarket but it appears now that the are treated the same.

 

[Mojo]

Possibly, but then again it is referred to on National Rail, CIS, announcements, etc. as just ''Edinburgh.''

 

[rail-britain]

Possibly, but then again it is referred to on National Rail, CIS, announcements, etc. as just ''Edinburgh.''

Presumably you are refering to Edinburgh Waverley (and this emphasises the confusion)
I too was guilty of missing out "Waverley"

However, where a train calls at Haymarket then there is quite a difference between the two
Equally, northbound after Newcastle I used to get asked if the train was going to call at Edinburgh, as the next station was Edinburgh Waverley...
Able to pull legs sometimes, "Sorry, this train doesn't call at Edinburgh"

 

[reb0118]

Brief history lesson. On a mobile device so bear with me re typos. Historically most major towns and cities in the UK had more than one major station often run by separate companies. These stations would obviously contain the name of the city/town concerned and to stop confusion also a subname. eg North, south, Central &c., or Midland, GN &c., or such as Paragon, Bank Top, Victoria, &c. In the case of Edinburgh we had Waverley run by the NBR then LNER and then BR. and also Princes Street run by the CR t
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
hen the LMS then BR. It was BR's policy that if there was only one major station in a town then it would take the name of the town ONlY with no subname. Hence when Princes Street closed in the 1960s Edinburgh Waverley lost the Waverley and became just Edinburgh and that is its official name to this day! Or is it? There has always been a campaign to Reinstate Waverley back into the name and to be fair it has always been used by locals, railmen, passengers &c. in everday speech.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A few years back a local punter got a bee in his bonnet re there being no Waverley in the name as shown on the Scotrail website. this was nothing to do with Scotrail as the name of the Station was a former BR decision and in any case the station is run by Network Rail. However to be fair to Scotrail they input Waverley into the name on their site. which annoyed me slightly as you have to select it from a list if you just input Edinburgh. Mild rant over.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With regard to the OP (somebody please check this) but I'm sure that EDB - GLQ flexi passes ARE valid from EDP to GLQ if you change at Linlithgow. Also flexis are valid from Bishopbriggs and Lenzie to Edinburgh via Croy but hey I'm just a guard who works the E&G so what do I know? if I'm confused sometimes (after 15 years) then I do have sympathy with the fare paying public.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My interpretation of the flexi pass rules are as follows. Please feel free to comment. Flexis are point to point tickets and are not valid for break of journey you may however change trains for connectional purposes only at LIN or CRO as above. Passengers may leave my train at any station enroute if required but a new flexi or other valid ticket will be needed to complete any subsequent journey. flexis must be correctly dated prior to travel or at least before I check your ticket.

 

[island]

My interpretation of the flexi pass rules are as follows. Please feel free to comment. Flexis are point to point tickets and are not valid for break of journey you may however change trains for connectional purposes only at LIN or CRO as above. Passengers may leave my train at any station enroute if required but a new flexi or other valid ticket will be needed to complete any subsequent journey. flexis must be correctly dated prior to travel or at least before I check your ticket.

Officially at least where break of journey is prohibited then starting/finishing short also is.

 

[reb0118]

Officially at least where break of journey is prohibited then starting/finishing short also is.

true but surely you would excess to the appropriate fare which for intermediate journeys in most cases would be less than the flexi price

 

[rail-britain]

With regard to the OP (somebody please check this) but I'm sure that EDB - GLQ flexi passes ARE valid from EDP to GLQ if you change at Linlithgow. Also flexis are valid from Bishopbriggs and Lenzie to Edinburgh via Croy but hey I'm just a guard who works the E&G so what do I know? if I'm confused sometimes (after 15 years) then I do have sympathy with the fare paying public

The ticket in question is ONLY valid from Glasgow or Edinburgh
The confusion is "Edinburgh", and whether this includes Haymarket and Edinburgh Park
Just to confuse it further, the ticket is also valid between Motherwell and Edinburgh

 

[Username]

With regard to the OP (somebody please check this) but I'm sure that EDB - GLQ flexi passes ARE valid from EDP to GLQ if you change at Linlithgow. Also flexis are valid from Bishopbriggs and Lenzie to Edinburgh via Croy but hey I'm just a guard who works the E&G so what do I know? if I'm confused sometimes (after 15 years) then I do have sympathy with the fare paying public.

Do the conditions not still vary depending on whether it is a 10 journey or 50 journey flexipass?

10 Journey Flexipass
* Valid for one calendar month from date of issue.
* Valid for point to point journey shown on ticket, not to be used at intermediate stations.

50 Journey Flexipass
* Expiry date pre-printed on ticket stock.
* Valid for point to point journey shown on ticket, not to be used at intermediate stations.
* May be used to board/alight at Motherwell for travel via Shotts route or on EC services.
* May be used to board/alight at Croy for travel to/from Lenzie and Bishopbriggs.

 

[rail-britain]

Do the conditions not still vary depending on whether it is a 10 journey or 50 journey flexipass?

Perhaps the OP could clarify which has been purchased and used

Equally, having now read the details against the validity, the two do seem to be in slight conflict

Perhaps the OP should submit an enquiry to ScotRail for them clarify

 

[bb21]

I don't understand how the average passenger is meant to know this, though. The station's name is Edinburgh Waverley. Haymarket's station name may not include the word 'Edinburgh,' but Edinburgh Park's does.

Yes I agree. It would leave less room for confusion if the ticket is printed Edinburgh Waverley and all relevant information such as station name boards and timetable listings changed accordingly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

true but surely you would excess to the appropriate fare which for intermediate journeys in most cases would be less than the flexi price

If a BOJ is not permitted then I reckon it would have to be a brand new ticket.

 

[island]

If a BOJ is not permitted then I reckon it would have to be a brand new ticket.

I'd disagree with this; it should be excessed to the lowest-price ticket type available for immediate travel that would allow the break of journey. That's what the NRCoC says (can't find the right section now, but it's somewhere between 12-16). In this case, since a 10-ticket Flexipass from Edinburgh to Glasgow Cen/Qst is £96.20, that's £9.62 per journey, so the excess is £1.68 to a CDS at £11.30, or £2.58 to an SDS at £12.20 if the customer is travelling when the CDS is barred.

 

[bb21]

I'd disagree with this; it should be excessed to the lowest-price ticket type available for immediate travel that would allow the break of journey. That's what the NRCoC says (can't find the right section now, but it's somewhere between 12-16). In this case, since a 10-ticket Flexipass from Edinburgh to Glasgow Cen/Qst is £96.20, that's £9.62 per journey, so the excess is £1.68 to a CDS at £11.30, or £2.58 to an SDS at £12.20 if the customer is travelling when the CDS is barred.

I suppose it depends on whether a Flexipass is classed as one ticket allowing the holder to make 10/50 journeys or, like EMT's Carnets, classed as 10/50 single tickets with a discount attached to them for bulk purchasing.

For the latter, I can understand the excess, however in the former case, I am not too sure. Yes, I agree that common sense would say that each ticket is effectively worth 1/10 or 1/50 the price of the whole pass, but we all know a lot of the times common sense does not really exist in this area.