GWR - Unacceptable for Xmas Eve.

[12LDA28C]

But how far do you go regarding catching an earlier train? The train before? The train before the one before? The train before the one before the one before? The day before?

It’s really not unreasonable that barring accidents, severe weather, impending Armageddon, that the advertised train should turn up.

I never said it was and I didn't suggest the OP should've caught an earlier train, they chose to do so. Personally I would've turned up for the booked train and if it was cancelled and no alternative train was available, demanded a taxi. It would still be GWR's responsibility to get me home and I've had taxis provided in the past due to cancellations and even delays/disruption.

 

[johncrossley]

The main point of trains is to take cars off the road. Yes, they are also of use for people without cars, but that's not the main point, or at least shouldn't be. You won't be getting people out of cars if there is uncertainty about the integrity of the advertised timetable.

 

[Deepgreen]

Easy comment to kake but not necessarily an available option for everyone.

Also not a useful glib comment on a rail forum!

 

[Haywain]

But how far do you go regarding catching an earlier train? The train before? The train before the one before? The train before the one before the one before? The day before?

You are quoting a post that simply states what the OP actually did, and is not suggesting anything about catching earlier trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

I never said it was and I didn't suggest the OP should've caught an earlier train, they chose to do so. Personally I would've turned up for the booked train and if it was cancelled and no alternative train was available, demanded a taxi. It would still be GWR's responsibility to get me home and I've had taxis provided in the past due to cancellations and even delays/disruption.

You can "demand" all you like - it doesn't mean they would do it (they probably would, but it's far from guaranteed), whether they were obliged to or not. The staff might have been disgruntled and said 'no - take it up with management', there may have been no taxis available, etc. The failure to get a taxi might have got you compensation later on, but that's no help at the time, when everything is shutting down. Yet again, it comes down to the railway now running (or not) based on penalties and contracts, rather than pride in service or a general feeling of social responsibility to passengers/the community. That ebbed steadily away from 1994 onwards, spurred on by Thatcher's claim that 'there is no society, only self' (or similar wording).

 

[12LDA28C]

You can "demand" all you like - it doesn't mean they would do it (they probably would, but it's far from guaranteed), whether they were obliged to or not. The staff might have been disgruntled and said 'no - take it up with management', there may have been no taxis available, etc. The failure to get a taxi might have got you compensation later on, but that's no help at the time, when everything is shutting down. Yet again, it comes down to the railway now running (or not) based on penalties and contracts, rather than pride in service or a general feeling of social responsibility to passengers/the community. That ebbed steadily away from 1994 onwards, spurred on by Thatcher's claim that 'there is no society, only self' (or similar wording).

Do you work on the railway? If not, how can you claim whether front line railway staff have 'pride in the service' or not, or any kind of responsibility to passengers or not? That might be how you perceive things as a passenger, but in my experience most rail staff try to do their best, despite the difficult position that they are frequently put in by circumstances and decisions made which are way beyond their control.

For reference, Thatcher actually said that "...there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

It's hard to disagree with that, surely?

 

[Deepgreen]

Do you work on the railway? If not, how can you claim whether front line railway staff have 'pride in the service' or not, or any kind of responsibility to passengers or not? That might be how you perceive things as a passenger, but in my experience most rail staff try to do their best, despite the difficult position that they are frequently put in by circumstances and decisions made which are way beyond their control.

For reference, Thatcher actually said that "...there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours. People have got their entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as an entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.”

It's hard to disagree with that, surely?

My entire career was on the railway and I have seen countless examples of staff transformed from those who had pride in their work to being worn down and forced to be driven by other goals, let alone new staff who enter 'fresh' and who are directed down the path set out by the underlying principles of privatisation (disastrous though they been endlessly proved be). Yes, you have quoted Thatcher correctly, but the Tory ethos was and is, effectively, 'everything is better with financial competition' - even where that is false.

I remain a rail passenger who saw the railway directly from an employee perspective for 38 years. Some front line staff remain commited to good service but my personal experience is that they are a steadily dwindling group, often through no direct fault of their own.

My point in this particular context is that simply demanding a taxi late on Christmas Eve won't magically create one.

 

[richw]

Going to Torquay in February on a Friday to Sunday break.
My possibly wrong perception of stories of driver shortages mean I plan to drive. I will continue to do so until I'm more confident that trains are reliable.
I was a frequent leisure user.

GWR is very poor on Sundays. Over the last 18 months i stand at 100% delay repay for Sunday GWR travel! On the plus side I can’t complaint it hasn’t cost me a penny to travel in theory.

 

[Deepgreen]

GWR is very poor on Sundays. Over the last 18 months i stand at 100% delay repay for Sunday GWR travel! On the plus side I can’t complaint it hasn’t cost me a penny to travel in theory.

However, does the fare reimbursement truly cover all your wider costs, monetary or otherwise?

 

[father_jack]

I never said it was and I didn't suggest the OP should've caught an earlier train, they chose to do so. Personally I would've turned up for the booked train and if it was cancelled and no alternative train was available, demanded a taxi. It would still be GWR's responsibility to get me home and I've had taxis provided in the past due to cancellations and even delays/disruption.

For fear of repeating myself and another poster the OP could have got home even after the cancelled 2201 had they scrolled down on national rail.

I think we may be letting a good old rant get in the way of yes, just another poor day on the railway whatever date of the year it was.....

 

[12LDA28C]

For fear of repeating myself and another poster the OP could have got home even after the cancelled 2201 had they scrolled down on national rail.

Indeed and I've already stated that in my own post #58.

 

[The Planner]

The main point of trains is to take cars off the road. Yes, they are also of use for people without cars, but that's not the main point, or at least shouldn't be. You won't be getting people out of cars if there is uncertainty about the integrity of the advertised timetable.

Are they? They are a medium to get people from A to B (or part of A to B), they are never going to make a sizeable dent in taking cars off the road.

 

[johncrossley]

they are never going to make a sizeable dent in taking cars off the road.

If that's the case why does any country invest in its public transport? With that kind of talk, we might as well remove all subsidy for the railways and close all unprofitable lines.

 

[father_jack]

There is not a driver shortage. There is simply a misue of what driver resources GWR has. At Plymouth for example, on the HSS side, they are now seriously short, yes short of work. The problem is inefficient diagramming, where a driver will be used for just a couple of hours driving during a shift, rather than being used productively, say driving for 6 or 7 hours . The issues began about 7 years ago with the idea that it is better to use 4 drivers to cover a trains journey from say Plymouth to London than 1. Tackle this ineffienct rostering and things would start looking a lot better for zero extra cost to the taxpayer.

You'll get nowhere here for presenting any semblance of reality.

 

[londonbridge]

I struggle to think of any business which operates normal hours and full staffing on Christmas eve. Much of the economy stopped last Friday

Sainsburys local near me closes at 11pm normally, it was open till 10pm Christmas Eve so only one hour difference, in previous years it’s closed at 9pm. There appeared to be two colleagues and two managers on duty whereas in the evening there is usually two colleagues and one manager.

 

[Falcon1200]

It wasn't a normal day for rostering in my experience.

I'm surprised by that; As before, Christmas Eve is not and never has been a Public Holiday. So when it falls on a day someone is rostered to work, most usually Monday to Friday, as per this year, anyone wanting the day off would quite possibly have it granted but at the cost of a day's leave, surely?

 

[The Planner]

If that's the case why does any country invest in its public transport? With that kind of talk, we might as well remove all subsidy for the railways and close all unprofitable lines.

Because it should be treated as a system? There are 41.7 million licenced vehicles in the UK. How much modal shift are you expecting before the railway couldn't cope?

 

[johncrossley]

Because it should be treated as a system? There are 41.7 million licenced vehicles in the UK. How much modal shift are you expecting before the railway couldn't cope?

The whole point of modal shift is so that people leave their cars at home. As some point you would impose congestion charges to reduce demand. But that would be a happy position to be in, meaning that the railway is "winning". If we ever get to the point where the railway couldn't cope, that would be a green light to a huge expansion in capacity and the railway might not even need subsidy.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The whole point of modal shift is so that people leave their cars at home. As some point you would impose congestion charges to reduce demand. But that would be a happy position to be in, meaning that the railway is "winning". If we ever get to the point where the railway couldn't cope, that would be a green light to a huge expansion in capacity and the railway might not even need subsidy.

We certainly thought we were going to be in that eventually before COVID.

 

[43096]

Sainsburys local near me closes at 11pm normally, it was open till 10pm Christmas Eve so only one hour difference, in previous years it’s closed at 9pm. There appeared to be two colleagues and two managers on duty whereas in the evening there is usually two colleagues and one manager.

You mean “staff” not “colleagues”. The managers are also colleagues…

 

[Horizon22]

The whole point of modal shift is so that people leave their cars at home. As some point you would impose congestion charges to reduce demand. But that would be a happy position to be in, meaning that the railway is "winning". If we ever get to the point where the railway couldn't cope, that would be a green light to a huge expansion in capacity and the railway might not even need subsidy.

Well passenger loadings on some weekends suggest the "railway can't cope" with full trains and no disruption on certain routes. There is however some scope to increase supply, yet that is getting increasingly difficult under the political/economic/operational situation the rail industry finds itself in presently.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The whole point of modal shift is so that people leave their cars at home. As some point you would impose congestion charges to reduce demand. But that would be a happy position to be in, meaning that the railway is "winning". If we ever get to the point where the railway couldn't cope, that would be a green light to a huge expansion in capacity and the railway might not even need subsidy.

We're not far off that now are we?

 

[Horizon22]

We're not far off that now are we?

We're definitely far off from "the railway might not even need subsidy".

 

[Lewisham2221]

We're definitely far off from "the railway might not even need subsidy".

Oops, missed that bit

I was if course referring to the point where the railway requires huge investment to be able to cope with any meaningful amount modal shift from the roads

 

[Horizon22]

Oops, missed that bit

I was if course referring to the point where the railway requires huge investment to be able to cope with any meaningful amount modal shift from the roads

Indeed it would and the infrastructure is costly and has a long lead which has always been so easy to sell politically...

 

[brad465]

At this point we should just have a thread titled "rant here about GWR if you must".

 

[richw]

However, does the fare reimbursement truly cover all your wider costs, monetary or otherwise?

My time is the only thing not reimbursed. Likelihood I would have sat doing nothing at home and when I got home anyway after the recent trips, so I was just sat doing nothing elsewhere

 

[Starmill]

Look at it this way. If you get taxied you usually get the taxi fare back or covered there and then, and compensation for the value of your ticket. Presumably GWR prefer to pay out on that than on running a decent quality service. I agree it's terrible of course, but...

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Here's the GWR service on the Cotswold Line for Christmas Eve (down trains):

15.52 Paddington–Great Malvern cancelled
16.58 Paddington–Great Malvern short-notice cancellation
17.04 Didcot–Evesham ran (2-coach Turbo)
17.33 Paddington–Hereford caped at Worcester Shrub Hill
17.57 Paddington–Worcester Foregate Street cancelled
18.57 Paddington–Great Malvern cancelled
19.53 Paddington–Hereford ran (9-coach IET)
20.52 Paddington–Worcester Shrub Hill cancelled

Not great at all.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You should see the cancellations on other routes.

Seriously, there were some heroic efforts to run a service on Xmas Eve, given that it must have seemed like juggling with jelly in GWR control with a gap filled here, only for another to appear at short notice elsewhere and then repeat, right through the entire shift.

As I said up thread, they nearly got away with the very late trains but really ran out of luck with the 2201. But I don’t think anybody was left stranded as a result of that cancellation.

Should it be like this? Of course not. But until we can get the TOCs out of the clutches of the DfT and into some kind of saner GBR control, will we see them staffed up to cope with something as ordinary as a few members of staff not being available to work.